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Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by Hawkstar, Oct 30, 2012.
I've switched my missy's nasty plot to psychic to great effect today.
Poison Touch. No one's gonna hit you with a Water-type move, and all of a sudden Fake Out pwns. Probably one of the most enjoyable gimmicks in the current meta!
Looking into it, why not try a special sweeper? With Vacuum Wave, Dark Pulse, and even a fun bout with Acupressure, Seems like he might have a fun run as doing some good work taking out two or three pokemon. A choice scarf will for sure catch some off guard and be interesting.
If your using a special set, why not use nasty plot as a reliable why of increasing SAtk?
Choice scarf Croagunk sounds incredibly redundant. The majority of your moves on have priority to start, so adding that speed (and locking yourself into a move) is kind of redundant and often hindering to yourself. Like, being able to outspeed murkrow's sucker punch with your own is kinda cool, and sure it might even net you the KO if its about dead anyways, but 9/10 times he'll just brave bird, and OHKO. Same goes with CSer's you'll outspeed even without your own scarf unless they're attacking with priority (which just... doesnt happen). *maybe* band or specs?
Also ray jay's gimmick is hilarious; but i just find dry skin too good to pass up. I'm kind of interested to see how the special sweeper set turns up, so I'll probably be trying that out. something along the lines of NP vacuum wave Shadow Ball Focus blast. The biggest problem i see with the set is that Focus Blast.
Why not use Sludge Bomb? It gives you a reliable STAB for most situations, and Vacuum Wave is sufficient for most Steel types.
As for me, I'm probably going to use Bulk Up Croagunk. I can see it being a good partner to MixKrow, as it deals with threats like Tirtouga and Lileep for Murkrow.
NP should be using Sludge Bomb, Vwave, and filler (Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, IDK). Then you pair it with a knock off user, and you hit a lot harder than people expect. Also, I really like this set because most people think they can afford to give Croagunk a turn because typically it will Fake Out. This often times leads them to making a bad switch as they anticipate the Fake Out while you Nasty Plot. Just somethings to think about!
On the whole i tend to forget about poison as an offensive attack cause of its really subpar coverage. Sludge bomb *is* the better idea tough, cause like you said, its a more reliable STAB; just saying why i went immediately to focus blast. Also, really sad/surprised Croa doesnt get Aurasphere :'(
Edit at below refering to the metagaming: at the very least that means that enough people are being active in the challenge! thats the first step towards the ladder becoming important
Aura Sphere is pretty much only learned by legends/pseudo-legends, so yeah :(
Nasty Plot Croagunk is actually pretty cool, since it can OHKO Misdreavus (even with Eviolite!). However, it still has a tough time against Murkrow and Drifloon, and stuff like Hippopotas will beat it too. Getting a free turn to set up is surprisingly easy, as stuff like Staryu won't do enough damage to stop you. The main problem is that with Eviolite, it doesn't output enough damage to kill stuff like the aforementioned Hippopotas or Murkrow, so faster stuff can fairly easily revenge it. Life Orb works, but setup becomes even more difficult.
One downside to choosing Croagunk: due to the ladder challenge, Croagunk usage has risen drastically. Since Croagunk has a 4x Psychic weakness, running stuff like Psychic Staryu or Zen Headbutt Scraggy is pretty much a free kill every game. Metagaming at its finest.
As i said, psychic missy has been hilarious lately. Having a 4x weakness to something a lot of faster pokemon can run as filler is never a good thing.
How can you post this? All I saw was you getting major hax at perfect times. Crit to take out mienfoo, Lileep get haxed on a switch that would have Ko porygon. Haxed to Ko Lileep. Things would have been way different if even just mienfoo was alive.
After having experimented with both Bulk Up and Nasty Plot Croagunk, I have to say I'm impressed with the former, but I'm really not fond of the latter.
The main problem with Nasty Plot is that Croagunk is far too slow. It reaches a maximum speed of 15 meaning that it's really easy to revenge kill as even a +2 Vacuum wave is quite weak. Things that resist fighting like Abra, Misdreavus and Drifloon find it very easy to take Nasty Plot gunk down due to the lack of Sucker Punch. Sucker Punch isn't the only move I find myself missing; the absence of Drain Punch really hurts Croagunk's longevity and it misses the reliable fighting STAB quite a bit; relying on Sludge Bomb as a main STAB attack is quite annoying.
Bulk Up however was much more reliable. Thanks to Drain Punch it has a much easier time switching in and out throughout the match before attempting a sweep and Sucker Punch means it doesn't have to worry as much about Abra, Floon and Missy. The defense boost means it doesn't care about the lack of speed as it is more of a bulky set-up tank. It also means that physical attackers are less of a threat. I'm not sure about the last move. At the moment I'm using Vacuum Wave which still allows it to check some things like Omastar and Scraggy. If there's a better move though, please let me know.
As for partners - rock types such as Tirtouga and Lileep are great partners to take on Flying types and the ability to set up Stealth Rock is nice as Croagunk forces a lot of switches. Murkrow is another partner I find works well as it lures in Tirtouga, Lileep and Chinchou whom Croagunk can use as set-up bait. Also Knock Off Support is great as Croagunk will have a much easier time if is going to sweep with eviolites removed.
I don't know what it is, but I can't seem to use Croagunk properly this metagame. It worked for me fabulously before BW2, but I've been trying really hard this time and have been completely unsuccessful in using it. I believe the problem is the popularity of Sand making Hippopotas, one of Croagunk's best counters, so very popular, and for scaring Croagunk out when Drilbur or Sandshrew comes to play. This is a shame, since I really appreciate Croagunk's ability to completely counter Lileep and most Water-type Pokemon this metagame. I just don't know if that niche is enough when it's being forced out by Drilbur, Sandshrew, Hippopotas, Murkrow, Misdreavus (let's be honest, a well played Will-o-Wisp Misdreavus just wins)...to the point where I can't really use my old best team anymore =/.
What do you guys think? Do you think the metagame is friendly to Croagunk? I appreciate the discussion of possible other sets, but I want to hear your opinion's on Croagunk's placement in the current metagame. How effective is it really?
It has to be said, the popularity of sand really gives Croagunk trouble in this metagame with Hippo and Drilbur forcing it out all the time. However, Croagunk manages to check a large number of threats in the metagame to still be of value. It's the sort of pokemon that can be slapped on a team as a final mon if you haven't yet found a check to both x pokemon and y pokemon. (Usually shell smashers, other water types like chinchou and staryu, bulky normal types, lileep, scraggy etc...)
The thing is though, you have to specialize Croagunk to a specific task (Fighting-type counter, special wall, etc.) and once you specialize, you might as well be using something else. Croagunk's niche was that it could act as a counter to a wide range of things, from Misdreavus to Staryu to Scraggy. Now that cores are actually really solid, Croagunk is just too weak and doesn't do enough damage.
Yeah, in my opinion no boosting fighting type that cant either take a brave bird or kill krow with priority before it gets the chance to brave bird has any place in this metagame. There is far too much power, especially super effective power, for croagunk to sweep. Besides, wouldnt timburr be better?
There's almost no fighting types that can kill Murkrow at full health with priority (as far as I know). At best it takes Murkow down to where recoil kills. At worst Murkrow kills and has enough HP for 1 or 2 Brave birds. While not broken, it's very close to being so.
Time's up on Croagunk this week! No one hit the ladder peak, but now that the ladder is messed up, it doesn't look like the ladder challenge will happen this week. However, next week, once the ladder is reset, you will be credited for making the top 3 with either next week's Pokemon of the Week, or this week's featured Pokemon. Yes, it's another Fighting-type, but since there are so many that Mienfoo overshadows, we gotta give them their share of the sun somewhere! Timburr finds itself as Pokemon of the Week this week!
75 HP / 80 Atk / 55 Def / 25 SAtk / 35 SpD / 35 Spe
Abilities: Guts / Sheer Force / Iron Fist
Timburr's Bulk Up set is well known for being very good, but many think that is all it can do. However, its movepool is relatively unexplored, with possible gems such as Knock Off, Facade, Superpower, and even Rain Dance, Sunny Day, and Taunt, which are gifts to other Pokemon but see no use on Timburr. Is Timburr's Bulk Up set too good to use anything else, or could some of these unheard of moves make a new popular set? Let's find out this week!
Edit: Iron Fist is now legal, so once PS updates its tiers to reflect this, try it out!
Sub punch has the ability to be hella powerful with Staab and Fist boosted Focus Punch, priority in Mach punch and your coverage of choice in the last slot (obviously substitute too). once missy is gone it can pretty much roll eveything. I'm going to test that set out Will edit in my findings
Edit: Hawkstar is a jerk >:( Honestly, aside from bulk up; a sheer force set might exist, abusing the power boosts to Stone Edge etc, but lacks an effective (or at least more effective than Drain Punch) stab attack. I think we're going to find Bulk up to be all it can do till its dw hit.
That's true, but unfortunately, I deceived you all and it's not legal yet. It will be soon, but not in time for this unfortunately. :(
Whats illegal about it? The fist?
Iron Fist Timburr is unreleased, yeah.
That means no boost on Focus Punch. Anyway, it sure is the only usable subpuncher in the tier. Maybe Machop but No Guard Dynamic Punch is waaaay better on him.
I'm looking forward for the support options: it's too slow for a taunt set but bulky enough for weather support and with Sand so prominent I think is good antimeta being a good check for Snover. Pair him with a bulky Water-type or a good Grass-type and you have Hippo checked; they even have good synergy with the weather move of choice.
Facade doesn't seem too good. Sure, it has guts but looses STAB and coverage as its only way to hit Ghosts is payback. What about a Restalk/Drain Punch/Facade set with Guts? I remember someone mentioned that Teddiursa does a good Job with that but loosing coverage on Ghosts is risky.
Like always, I'll try my best but as I suck at teambuilding I'll be left behind... again :).
To be honest, I can't see the point in using anything other than Bulk Up/Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Payback(or maybe Ice Punch). I don't think any other options you mentioned are that worthwhile on it. Knock Off suits Mienfoo's playstyle more as Mienfoo is more of a bulky pivot, whilst Timburr is more of a tank/late game sweeper. I don't feel it has the speed to pull off taunt or the need as status makes it more powerful due to guts. The only worthwhile mons to taunt are like Shelmet and Foongus, which I don't think warrants a change in moveslot. Facade doesn't seem to offer any more coverage, and I don't like the sound of defense drops from superpower, taking away the tankiness.
I suppose if you were going to change a moveslot, you could just forget Bulk Up for another coverage move. So Drain Punch/Ice Punch/Payback/Mach Punch, but that takes away Timburr's ability to sweep in the late game. Maybe a Flame/Toxic Orb + 4 attacks set? I'm not sure if it would have enough speed to sacrifice the bulk from eviolite though... I'll test it out at some point and post my findings later.
Iron Fist Timburr is now legal! That was pretty quick.
OK, now that Iron Fist is here, how does this affect Timburr? Will a possible SubPunch set prove to be awesome, or will something like an LO set with Hammer Arm turn out to be awesome?
yeeeaah i really want to see calcs of LO Hammer Arm vs stuff. Subpunch might be a better and longer lasting set, but i think an LO set will absolutely hammer holes in the opposing team, making it easier for other sweepers, such as Tirtouga (Croagunk will be severely damaged by constantly taking resisted, but very powerful hits. Or even Earthquake lol) Tirtouga can also lure in Lileep which is a perfect time for Timburr to switch in. And Tirtouga can take some Brave Birds and whatnot, stuff that Timburr has trouble with
These two match pretty well together. Perhaps add something such as Scarf Misdreavus and you've got yourself a pretty good offensive core.