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Pokemon of the Week #11: Grimer (See post #150)

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Hawkstar, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    I get what you're saying but I'm still not swayed. Your example is pretty much limited to only situations in which both teams are running heavy hazards and one runs tentacool as a hazard / spinner(-er). A large majority of teams use only Rocks for hazards because both Toxic and regular spikes, though deadly when done, require way too much time to set up and (as has been mentioned many times) the giant list of amazing spinners vs the significantly smaller list of usable ghosts. What im getting at is that most teams wouldnt switch in frillish to a Tentacool. Losing Rocks > letting you set up. Frillish can't really hurt tentacool in anyways, and tentacool can giga drain, or toxic spikes. In fact the only thing frilish could do when it switches in, is block a spin - and then its immediatley forced out. When you have 6+ layers of hazards, spin blocking is incredibly important. When only rocks are on the ground, spin blocking is much less important because its so much easier (and plausible) to get those back up.

    Additionally, tentacool is not as common a spinner as Staryu / Drilbur. Of the two, Staryu is the bigger issue because it carries a Thunderbolt to peg Frillish. Drilbur has Shadow Claw though its hardly ever ran - favored for Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, or Rapid Spin. Anyways; in the case of staryu, double switches become more plausible, if still a generally bad idea. It boils down to prediction, switching into a thunderbolt is never fun, but if you do switch into a Spin, switching into a staryu check immediately after is significantly less punishing than with tentacool - who gives your whole team poison to deal with. Also, as Chielee menitioned, staryu's Tbolt *can* be out-stalled with recover, but not if it switches into it. Max HP/ Max SpD will only take 11-13 damage, which means you CAN switch in and outstall staryu, but leaves you significantly weaker physically.

    Lemme know if this needs to be clarified, I did my best not to, but I feel like im rambling.
  2. thebrownie

    thebrownie

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    I semi agree with you, but the only reason why you would use frillish over tentacool is because it's the best spinblocker in the game as tentacool does everything that frillish does defensively (not as well though because of recover). It has rapid spin, knockoff, toxic spikes>>>>>>>>>recover, will-o-wisp,shadowball. If you're going to run the best spinblocker and not go heavy hazards, you're best to use tentacool.

    In short the niche of Tentacool and Frillish:

    Tentacool: rapid spin, toxic spikes, special tank, fighting poke wall/counter (with hp psychic)
    Frillish: Spin blocker, special wall, fighting pokemon wall (cover moves are super effective however...)

    Basically Frillish is better defensively because of recover, but rapid spin is so good that is Tentacool is a better option.

    I want to test the core Frillish/Ferroseed/Riolu now, but I hate how gimmicky copycat/roar is.
  3. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    Uh Tentacool isn't even something that is close to being comparable with Frillish. Like they honestly do completely and utterly different things, to the point where I can't even imagine you bringing them up so frequently. A Water- and Ghost-type Pokemon with access to Recover, the ability to consistently burn other Pokemon, and good mixed bulk is completely different to a Water- and Poison-type Pokemon with access to Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, and Knock Off, along with awful physical bulk but excellent special bulk.

    Both Pokemon do incredibly different things and are used for different reasons. Please limit the discussion to Frillish, not Tentacool. That's an entirely different discussion...nor does it even make sense as a comparison.
  4. thebrownie

    thebrownie

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    Are you joking?! Tentacool and Frillish have very similar niches. Their similar typing/stats and resistances lend them to special/fighting sponge. If anything the jellys could not be any similar in that regard. The difference is rapid spin/Tspikes vs spinblocking/recover. The comparison with role wise cruel and jellicent in OU is uncanny and the same comparison, while weaker is there in LC(only Tentacool has no recover compared to it's ou counterpart).

    Just ask yourself this. Is it viable to run both tentacool and frillish? If not why not?

    Edit: I need to think about this a bit more actually, since I forget frillish can beat sand teams... maybe that difference seperates them a lot in roles.
  5. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    They're separated in so many ways it's not even funny. You've even highlighted the differences, and they're substantial. The reason they aren't very viable on the same team is you generally don't double on defensive waters in little cup. That doesn't make their niches similar...their niches are so far apart it's ridiculous. Tspikes / spin / knock off v spin blocker / recovery for a ghost / reliable status...they are different things. Likewise, tentacool kind of sucks, further creating a difference. It also has no chance aganst sand.

    The differences are substantial. Do not bring up tentacool again. Talk about frillish.
  6. Shouting

    Shouting

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    How does Frillish do well against sand teams? Looking at a damage calculator I find that 236/196 Bold Eviolite Frillish is 2HKO'd by Life Orb Drilbur, and has a good chance of being 1HKO'd by eviolite Swords Dance considering stealth rock and sandstorm damage.

    When I think of Sand I think of Hippo/Drilbur/Lileep/Sandshrew/Magnemite/filler and Frillish can't switch in on Drilbur or Sandshrew (I'm assuming), loses 1v1 to Magnemite, and walled by Lileep.

    Am I missing something really big? Because right now the only thing Frillish can handle comfortably on sand is Hippo. I could be wrong though!


    EDIT: I get this
    Show Hide
    Detailed Result:
    236 Atk Life Orb Drilbur (+Atk) Earthquake vs 236 HP/196 Def Eviolite Frillish (+Def) : 48% - 60%
    Entry hazards damage: 3
    After entry hazards: 15 - 18 (60% - 72%)
    2 hits to KO

    Possible HP Damage: 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15

    and
    Detailed Result:
    236 +2 Atk Drilbur (+Atk) Earthquake vs 236 HP/196 Def Eviolite Frillish (+Def) : 72% - 88%
    Entry hazards damage: 3
    After entry hazards: 21 - 25 (84% - 100%)
    6.25% chance to OHKO
  7. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    Did you account for eviolite in your calcs? at +2 Adamant SD shrew cannot OHKO with earthquake, which means jolly +2 SD Drilbur cannot OHKO with Earthquake. Not many people (at least in my experience) opt for LO; and if they do, they rarely run SD and LO (though a +2 LO Jolly Drilbur does have a chanceto OHKO). Long story short, it can come in on a SD, tank a powerful eq and either Garuntee a OHKO on both with surf or have like a 6.25% chance not to OHKO drilbur (though sandshrew is OHKO'd no matter what) with scald. Then it has recover to rest off the damage.


    My calcs were also done hastily; so i might be wrong. a third party confirmation is requested

    Terribly embarassing edit i hope people look over:

    I think i may have forgotten to include STAB in some of my calcs; iirc i was significantly lower on the +2 Eviolite damage rolls, but +2 LO was still a OHKO on mine - that's my bad, sorry - Use woodchuck's numbers.
  8. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    Yes, Frillish can tank those attacks from full health, but let's keep in mind that it's going to be weakened by the time a good sand player is attempting to sweep. Even U-Turning out of Frillish with Mienfoo plus Stealth Rock damage is enough to put Frillish in SD Sandshrew's KO range.
    Frillish is not a "counter" to sand teams but it does pair rather well against many common Sand members one-on-one. However, it is prone to be worn down due to sand residual damage and the fact that it tends to be used to counter hit-and-run attackers like Mienfoo who will gradually chip off its health. Unless it spends a lot of time using Recover, Frillish is going down eventually, and until then Lileep can keep coming in and threatening to Toxic/Giga Drain.

    +2 236+ Atk Drilbur Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Frillish: 19-24 (76 - 96%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 236+ Atk Sandshrew Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Frillish: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 236+ Atk Life Orb Drilbur Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Frillish: 25-31 (100 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 236+ Atk Life Orb Sandshrew Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Frillish: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Though I agree that almost no one runs LO SD, I do need to point out that LO guarantees the KO.

    Actually, Earth Plate makes for an interesting choice as well:

    +2 236+ Atk Earth Plate Drilbur Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Frillish: 24-28 (96 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 236+ Atk Earth Plate Sandshrew Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Frillish: 22-27 (88 - 108%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  9. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    If you need a one poke counter for sand, you should be running foongus. Frillish should be used as a bulky water/ water immunity/spinblocker with a respectable offensive/status presence.
  10. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    Uhh... what? Foongus doesn't counter sand at all. It doesn't resist Earthquake and doesn't have the best Defense either. LO Drilbur always 2HKOes it, and +2 Eviolite Drilbur will OHKO it most of the time after Stealth Rock. The best counters to sand in one Pokemon are Choice Scarf Snover and Choice Scarf Porygon, who can singlehandedly demolish sand teams that are not well built with their powerful Ice-type moves (although good sand teams will inevitably have answers for Ice-type moves). Some bulky Grass-types like Shroomish also work, but they can get worn down by Double Rush and therefore should not be used as a primary counter to sand.

    Anyways, to get this thread back onto the topic of Frillish, I really think spikestacking teams with Misdreavus + Frillish is really strong. Frillish does do some things better than Misdreavus- beats Staryu more consistently, doesn't fear LO Mienfoo, and has Recover to actually, well, recover off damage. While it can be setup bait for some sweepers, Scald's burn is pretty threatening to everything and Frillish is bulky enough to stop some things such as LO Ponyta (as long as you keep using Recover). Frillish also deals with Rapid Spin Drilbur much better, as many variants of Misdreavus are actually 2HKOed by Mold Breaker Earthquake. (Speaking of RS Drilbur, it's becoming rather popular as an alternative spinner on balance teams that don't synergize well with Staryu.) Overall, Frillish is very difficult to kill, and definitely fills the role of bulky Ghost better than Misdreavus. (Misdreavus, on the other hand, does utility and offense better with Nasty Plot and Heal Bell. Heal Bell especially helps Frillish out a lot by negating Toxic.)
  11. Elevator Music

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    Just a friendly second or third or fourth reminder that this topic is for discussion of the Pokemon of the week (in this case Frillish), not other random Pokemon.

    So if you're making a post and once you look it over you realize it doesn't relate to the Pokemon of the week (which again, is Frillish), you might not want to hit the Post Reply button.
  12. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    so ive tested out frillish quite a bit when im bored and it actually has a lot of cool sets. in fact the set i hate most is the bulky eviolite shit cause honestly why not just use missy (i understnd it has recover but its honestly not hitting hard enough or taking hits well enough). Eviolite+3 attacks is incredibly fun, especially with scald burns keeping so much in check. choice scarf is even more entertaining cause spout is just a strong hit that people arent really prepared for without lileep.

    the thing bout frillish when compared to missy is that missy just fits on every team, while frillish needs to synergize much better with the team. if you can make frillish fit on the team, its pretty great. it can tank hits better than missy, spread status better, and just live longer, which can be more useful int he long run against stupid shit like drilbur who rapes everything lol
  13. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    the last part of prem's post summarizes the whole missy vs frillish thing perfectly
  14. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Unplug me from this fantasy
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    Not a lot of activity on that one, sadly. Even I forgot to update yesterday! Let's pick up the activity this week!

    This week's PotW is, in my opinion, the most viable Steel-type in the tier. With a huge Attack stat, Swords Dance, priority, and the ability to beat almost every Murkrow set in existence, this little mon is a powerful late-game threat. Pawniard is this week's Pokemon of the Week!

    [​IMG]
    Pawniard
    Dark- / Steel-type
    45 HP / 85 Atk / 70 Def / 40 SpA / 40 SDef / 60 Spe
    Abilities: Defiant / Inner Focus / Pressure​

    As much as Pawniard doesn't like how Fighting-type infested this metagame is, it still holds strong as a powerful offenseive threat. Defiant is an underrated ability that turns stat drops into a +2 Attack boost, so if you switch in on a Shadow Ball defense drop, the boosting has already been done for you! Of course, there are more uses than this, such as allowing it to bypass Memento and Intimidate. It runs an excellent Eviolite set, but now that Stealth Rock is legal with Sucker Punch, perhaps an SR setting set could become popular. I have also heard rumors of a Scarf set being very good, but that's also something that one could try out this week. Let's see what Pawniard has to offer us in this metagame!
  15. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    Yay i like pawniard. Also, it does lose to any heat wave eviolite krow, and at +0 loses to lo or scarf heatwave krow
  16. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    some spectacular activity in this thread
    Anyway, I haven't used Pawniard in forever so I gave it a spin today. With Jolly it's neat because most of the Pokemon that outspeed you die to Sucker Punch, while most Pokemon who don't die to Sucker Punch are outsped by Pawniard and get wrecked by Iron Head / Brick Break. Pawniard can be an excellent offensive mon because it has the strong priority like Murkrow without being totally SR weak and not dying to shit like fake out.

    The thing about Pawniard, though, is you need to predict to make it effective. With Pokemon like Murkrow, the extent of your prediction is optional when you can just speed tie against Misdreavus. Brave Bird shit, kill them. With Pawniard, you need to consistently make good predictions to be effective -- things like predicting if Missy is going to Wisp or to HP Fighting will make a huge difference in how much of a weapon Pawniard can be with Sucker Punch. I don't get a lot of clean sweeps with Pawniard -- mostly come in on its useful resistances, hit something or revenge with Sucker Punch, then switch out to something that can handle the ubiquitous Fighting-types of LC. The good thing is that most people rely on that Fighting-type to deal with Pawniard, so by running a team that basically completely destroys most Fighting-types I can take advantage of them to set up or clear away the Fighting-type for Pawniard to sweep.

    Right now, I'm enjoying running Pawniard + Drifloon. Drifloon has difficulty getting in on many Fighting-types due to their coverage moves hitting it super effectively, but Pawniard's presence almost ensures they use a Fighting-type move just because of how threatening Pawniard can be (and how tempting that 4x weakness is...). Drifloon can come in on almost all Fighting-types and destroy them with Acrobatics and weaken the opposing team's physical walls for Pawniard to clean up. Drifloon also dislikes Murkrow's Sucker Punch and Snover's Ice Shard shenenigans, and Pawniard can in turn switch in on much of Murkrow's and Snover's moveset. It also means that I tend to destroy hyper offensive teams because they fall to Drifloon's insane speed and Pawniard's strong priority.
  17. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    Pawniard (F) @ Eviolite Trait: Defiant
    EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SDef / 196 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Sucker Punch
    - Iron Head
    - Pursuit

    I've been using this set recently and quite frankly it's probably the best Pawniard set there is in my opinion. It's very very very good.

    Pawniard gets quite a lot of bulk when using an Eviolite set--bulk that comes in very handy sometimes, such as in surviving a burned Mienfoo Drain Punch or HP Fire from Snover and such. Furthermore, it makes Pawniard a very reliable counter to SubRoost Murkrow and good check to Life Orb Murkrow. One can see I'm using Jolly--that is to outrun Scraggy, which in and of itself is incredibly important.

    The cool thing about this set is Pursuit. Pursuit makes Pawniard one of the best answers to Snover in the game. It switches in on Blizzard / Giga Drain easily, and does a good 65% to Snover on the switch out with Pursuit. That makes snover basically useless...and if it had taken any damage before or SR on the way in, means it dies on the next SR. This makes this Pawniard one of the best support Pokemon for Sand as it reliably smashes Snover. Furthermore, Pursuit does other interesting things like putting Murkrow in checkmate situation, or smashing Frillish on the switch out, or other tiny things like that. I've found that Brick Break is entirely unnecessary as the only things it'll hit harder that are relevant are Scraggy and Steel-type Pokemon. Scraggy is smashed by a +2 Iron Head and the only relevant Steel-type Pokemon that isn't set up on or beaten by this set anyways is Magnemite. Besides Magnemite, however, this Pawniard goes to town, and I've loved using it.

    Some good partners for it have been Timburr and Frillish, both of which can help check some Fighting-type Pokemon that Pawniard can't and appreciates the removal of Misdreavus and Snover and what not. Pawniard's been quite a bamf.

    Any other sets working for you guys? I hear Choice Scarf is picking up some team...is that true? Is Life Orb effective? Come on guys, more posts!
  18. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    Back in my early BW-1 days I ran a core of Pawniard Drifloon and Timburr (i dont remember the exact sets, but i know pawniard was eviolite + SD; timbur was Bulkup, and Drifloon was standard Acro-burden) that worked very well. This was before Murkrow and friends got unbanned, though; so i havent tried out the team in the current meta. the idea behind the core was the strong typing synergy between 3 very hard hitting threats in the meta. Drifloon, much like for you came in on the fighting and ground attacks aimed at Pawniard; who eliminates ghosts for Timburr so he can spam +1 drain punches. If i were to remake this for todays meta, i would probably end up dropping timburr as you did - he mostly just acted as a sweeper after pawniard and acro softened things up. Will probably give this a shot again because i have a little attraction to this core due to it being the first semi-successful team i ever made on my own.

    @blara, Pawniard Vs Scraggy should only ever occur if you've weakened it enogh to OHKO with sucker punch and the only "threatening" steel type in the game is Ferroseed (though maybe this week will change my opinion of that); so I agree that Brick break is sort of just "Ohh look i get perfect coverage now" scenario.
  19. Woodchuck

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    Note to blarajan and others: I ran Life Orb, I haven't tried Eviolite but given that i have plugged for Munchlax quite often on double rush for its Pursuiting prowess, Eviolite Pawniard seems like a good avenue that I haven't explored on Sand teams yet!
    On Life Orb Pawniard, though, Brick Break is a lot more important. I found myself using it to revenge Houndour (no one runs +Spe Houndour...) and it let me kill things without getting worn down too much by residual damage. Eviolite would probably help me weather more hits and get more setup opportunities, but I'm pretty cautious with setting up with Pawniard because Life Orb Pawniard, while enjoying the use of Sucker Punch, still has enough issues with several threats in the meta (Fighting-types, Hippopotas) that too often I am forced out without being able to take advantage of Swords Dance; I can't afford to take 40% while setting up if I'm just going to be forced out anyway. Kind of reminds me of using Lucario in OU. Due to this I often just stay in and hit things or try to predict a switch and switch to something that will give me the advantage. Pawniard's typing and attacks lend itself to hitting and running or pivoting but do not allow it to sweep until later in the game :/
  20. Hawkstar

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    Hoo boy, Pawniard didn't even get enough replies to finish off the page. Hopefully this week's Pokemon will be a bit more interesting, since we have up the definition of high-risk high-reward.

    [​IMG]
    Archen
    Rock- / Flying-type
    55 HP / 112 Atk / 45 Def / 74 SpA / 45 SDef / 70 Spe
    Abilities: Defeatist​

    The immediate thing that catches anyone's attention when they see Archen is that beefy 112 base Attack stat, which translates to an Attack stat of 20 with Jolly. With it, Archen has the powerful Acrobatics + Flight Gem combo, which hits like a truck and doubles Acrobatics's power for the rest of the match. It also has two 100 BP moves to use alongside it in Stone Edge and Earthquake, which are unresisted in this metagame. Combine that with an above-average Speed that outpaces Mienfoo, and you've got a real boss on your hands! Unfortunately, Defeatist makes it death fodder if you aren't running a set with Roost, so Archen needs to be played carefully to get the full benefit.

    So how about it? Is supporting Archen too great of a task, or are the rewards of two very powerful STAB moves worth using a Pokemon that makes the game 6-5 at only 50% health? Let's see what we find out this week!
  21. JacobNinja

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    It is actually completely walled by bronzor.
  22. Chieliee

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    U-turn
  23. Elevator Music

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    Alright, my absolute favorite Archen set is obviously bulky Archen with Eviolite and Roost. It admittedly doesn't do that much outside of basically hard countering Murkrow and either setting up SR or providing U-turn support (or both if you fsr run both), but I find that very helpful on teams that can't stand Murkrow but don't want something like Chinchou. I've had difficulty coming up with an optimal EV spread though, and usually I end up customizing it to the rest of my team. It would be nice if other people would discuss what they feel is best for the set, and perhaps that can be worked into the soon-to-be analysis?

    Might build another Archen team in the near future for this, we'll see...
  24. Superpowerdude

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    Ok so this is a post i made about Archen in a lc thread a while back i will expand my thoughts on Archen later on. Also Hawkstar nice PotW ;)

  25. blarajan

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    Hm...I have absolutely no experience with Archen at all. Defeatist has always turned me off, and I've never tried using it before. What are your guys favorite Archen sets? EM mentioned bulky Eviolite...what does that entail / do? What teams do you use Archen on, or what teammates does it excel with in particular? Just from looking at Archen, I think Chinchou might be cool, but I'm not sure. Let me know what to do! I'm really interested in testing it.

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