1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Pokemon of the Week #16: Latias

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Dice, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. Laga

    Laga Thank u based danish pastry
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    901
    I personally prefer to use Latias over Latios, because the mattering bulk+SpAtk is better on latias, since Latios has a base 80 def and base 90 atk, whilst latias has those 2 swapped around.
    Unless you are using specs or scarf, i would prefer Latias because of the extra bulk :)
  2. Alexander.

    Alexander.
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,657
    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 72 HP / 184 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf / Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Roost

    Latias has higher bulk than Latios and this is useful in many chances, it's useful to tank Keldeo and Rock Polish Landorus' attacks better, for example. The higher bulk is the only point to use Life Orb Latias instead of Life Orb Latios in my opinion, so I always decide to give her 72 EVs on HP to resist to Venusaur's Sludge Bomb at +2 (which is always nice since Venusaur can be a threat for many team) and to tank better some strong hits like Landorus' Hidden Power Ice and Keldeo's Hydro Pump (which is always a 3HKO on Latias when rain is up). As last thing, I'd add that I usually use Surf instead of Hidden Power Fire because it's generally better to hit stuff like Tyranitar and Landorus (Draco Meteor's drop is really bad because it allows much setup) but Hidden Power Fire is a nice option because it hits strong Ferrothorn, Jirachi and destroys Scizor which can block Latias easily if she lacks HP Fire.
  3. Milos

    Milos

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2008
    Messages:
    356
    latias is a godsend in this metagame. it singlehandedly provides teams a check against sun and rain teams, it has useful resistances to some of the most dominant types in the metagame (fighting, water, electric AND an immunity to ground) and most of all it shares the throne of the fastest dragon in OU. being able to outspeed the 108 speed group (and KO'ing them all with psyshock) is extremely useful.

    imo the sole reason to use latias over latios is because of her bulk. because of her special bulk, she can run both offensive and defensive sets, making latias way more versatile than latios. what i like about her is that she has just enough firepower to be a threat offensively, while still being able to tank things like rain boosted hydro pumps / thunders, something latios cannot.

    there is only one real downside to latias: being pursuit weak. with scizor #1 in usage, and the tyranitar + keldeo combo becoming increasingly popular, latias must be careful when playing against these threats. despite this, she still manages to shine in OU.

    btw alexander: 72 HP latias takes 79.94% - 94.04% from timid LO sludge bomb at +2, meaning it has a 41% chance to OHKO latias after rocks. if you wanna really invest HP into latias for venusaur insurance i'd just go for the full 252 HP.
  4. Glen

    Glen
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2006
    Messages:
    6,568
    i like 200 hp/52 spa/252 spd, you survive the sludge bomb and also turn scarf keldeo's hp ice into a 3hko after rocks and sandstorm, while the 52 ap atk evs are helpful with increasing the odds of ohkoing the occasional leftovers keldeo
  5. Shokwav

    Shokwav

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    203
    Latias is scary as hell. SubCM with Recover and DPulse is a terrifying set to face; I've 6-0d competant players who forgot to pack an answer to it. Not to mention that the LO set is pretty damn good, however it has some stiff competition from Celebi in this role.
  6. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    912
    Latias' bulk makes it great glue to a team that lacks a weather check. It can also function in anti-weather cores as well as a terrifying late-game sweeper. Will edit this post for more.
  7. .Robert

    .Robert
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,474
    Latias is just awesome in this metagame. I particularly like this two sets, lo and subcm. The SubCM version is just a beast, it can set up on a lot of the offensive threats we have in OU like Keldeo, Landorus, Celebi, Politoed, Breloom, Heatran, etc. And in the other hand we have the Life Orb set, which in my opinion is the best set for Latias, she can help a lot in the offensive preassure and with hidden power fire or surf in the last slot (depending if you have rain or not in your team) she can help to keep the momentum for the team. But Latias not only helps in the offensive part she can help in the defensive one too. She can check Keldeo, Landorus, Breloom, Scizor (If you have hp fire) among others.

    I agreee. I have suffered a lot with Latias SubCM.
  8. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    387
    [​IMG]

    Latias (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Trick
    - Healing Wish

    You guys need to try this set. It looks a bit random sure but it's really really good at supporting your team. For starters, Scarf Latias is very unexpected in this metagame, an attribute which can net you a number of surprise KOs. It may not be overwhelmingly powerful, but even a non-boosted Draco Meteor coming from 319 Sp. Attack still does a sizeable chunk of damage to most non-resists. Dragon + Psychic isn't exactly the best coverage, though this set is not really designed to sweep. This set actually checks Keldeo better than the LO tank set because you outspeed all of its sets, meaning scarfed pony can't break through you with consecutive Hydro Pumps after you take prior damage.

    Trick + Healing Wish are just two amazing support options. The amount of things that Latias lures in that are crippled by Trick is just hilarious. Plus, when you're done you can sacrifice Latias to heal a teammate so you don't have to waste it as death fodder :toast:
  9. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Messages:
    4,468
    Tailwind/Recover/STAB/Coverage murders Rain and Sun offense, countering a whole bunch of stuff and using those free turns to set up Tailwind for stuff like Kyurem-B to just go apeshit over the following turns, outrunning all those Scarf Keldeos and Venusaurs. Textbook definition of a support Pokemon.
  10. MapleDoom

    MapleDoom

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2012
    Messages:
    86
    CM Latias has always been my favorite set, due to its bulk and good recovery.

    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 140 Def / 252 HP / 116 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    - Roost
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Surf

    Nobody knows how much I've raped people with my sand team, just because of this beastly set. It works pretty good in sand from what I've seen, but you can just run Psyshock/HP Fire>Surf if you're running a sun team.
  11. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    912
    That's not SubCM...
  12. BlackLight

    BlackLight

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    625
    Woah woah woah. Latias got Tailwind? I need to try this out, now.
    Anyways, not much to say about Latias. Its tanky, has an awesome typing, and can run a number of sets. I don't normally run Latias, simply because I forget about it, but each time I've used it, I haven't regretted a thing. It works serious wonders, every time. Still a huge favorite of mine.

    Yeah, its a bit too situational, with not enough reward for pulling it off right, imo. The main reason for using Latias is for her bulk and useful resistances. Copying Scizor's typing doesn't help the team much, since Keldeo can now force her out without an issue. Still, it could be handy for Pursuit blocking by copying Tyranitar's typing the first turn and switching out the second, but in most cases it isn't worth a mention.
  13. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,612
    How well does Reflect Type actually work in OU? I'd think Latias may be able to lure in stuff like Scizor very well, so I guess a set of CM / Reflect Type / Dragon Pulse / Recover or Surf could work, but it's a little situational.
  14. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    That is the set that I've been using, and I always use Surf. Not having to resort using Draco Meteor is the best thing to have as you can save that for a more dangerous threat, and Latias with Surf does not have to use Draco Meteor to defeat Landorus. Hidden Power Fire is usually nerfed by rain and does little damage to even Ferrothorn anyway.

    I like to use Latias as an all-out attacker. I don't like the fact that how CM sets are easily stopped by Tyranitar, as well as Scizor and Ferrothorn when it's raining or if Latias lack Hidden Power Fire/Surf, though I must admit that once these threats are taken down, Latias can usually sweep with impunity, this maybe is the fact that I never had any problems with Latias due to the fact that Tyranitar was always able to stop her cold, even with Reflect.

    On topic of Reflect Type, I don't like to use this move because Latias loses her STAB on Dragon-type attacks, and against Tyranitar, your opponent could always use Superpower to defeat Latias while she is copying its Rock/Dark typing; not to mention that it wastes a precious moveslot. Generally, it is better to pack a Fighting-type to deal with the threats that Latias fears, such as Tyranitar, Scizor, and Ferrothorn. Keldeo has been the best for me; it defeats the first two with Hydro Pump and the latter with Secret Sword. It also resists Latias' weakness to Dark and Ice; it is able to take advantage of Tyranitar and Weavile as no one can think of.
  15. Wizarus

    Wizarus

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    232
    I like Choice Specs on Latias alot more than LO. It 2HKOs Band TTar after rocks, even with HP Investments, and allows Latias to check things without worrying about that 10% recoil. Not having Roost sucks, but frankly, I rarely ever get the time to use it on offensive Latias without losing momentum.

    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    Evs: 116 Hp / 140 SAtk/ 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    -Draco Meteor
    -Psyshock
    -Surf
    -Hidden Power [Fire] / Trick

    140 in SAtk to 2HKO CB TTar after rocks, 116 in Hp to avoid the 2HKO by Choice Scarf Keldeo Hp Ice after rocks, and OHKO from +2 Lucario ES after rocks. You will also never be OHKO'd by Modest LO Venusaur's +2 Sludge Bomb without rocks up. Max Speed to Speed tie with 110s with HP Fire/Ice, and to outspeed 108s.
  16. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,934
    Has anyone tried reflect type or any of the posted sets?
  17. Groudon ex

    Groudon ex

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Messages:
    240
    [​IMG]

    latias @ leftovers
    trait: levitate
    evs: 252 hp / 4 satk / 252 spd
    timid nature
    - calm mind
    - dragon pulse
    - recover
    - psycho shift

    switch this girl in one of the many scalds/will-o-wisps commonly spammed in ou. psycho shift the burn onto things that check latias, e.g. tyranitar, scizor, ferrothorn, jirachi etc, effectively disabling them. you should then be free to get a clean sweep.
  18. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,934
    It's been a couple days since the discussion has moved along, and the new Pokemon of the Week isn't up for 2 days, so let's discuss the pros and cons of using Latias and Latios.
  19. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,893
    Latias and Latios have the exact same typing and very similar stats and movepool- so one could easily be mistaken into thinking that they occupy the same niche of fast heavy special hitter and then wrongly assume that Latios 'outclasses' Latias due to the fact that its stats are more geared towards that particular role.

    This is quite wrong.

    Both have their own roles in the metagame, and you can't really say that either 'is better' than the other and hang up your coat and call it a day. (well, you can never do that anyway)

    Latias and Latios each have thier own roles in this metagame, and despite their similarity the pure fact that Latias and Latios's SpDef and SpA is the primary reason as to why they play so differently. However, if you just want a pokemon that's fast and can handle many common threats in the metagame, both may fit for you, so here are some pros / cons.

    PRO
    Latios-
    ~It hits very hard. Even unboosted Draco Meteors can tear away immense chunks of health from opponents. It has great offensive coverage; access to both Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor makes it an ubpredictable attacker and its two powerful coverage moves in Surf and HP Fire let it break past some common special walls. Psyshock is awesome as it hits Blissey. Latios's greater power makes it more common on Hyper Offensive teams and Offensive teams, who enjoy its top tier speed, power, and coverage.

    Latias-
    ~It has a lot of special bulk. When coupled with its amazing typing, Latias can be used to check or even counter a large majority of the weather dominated metagame. Its resistance to Sun / Rain coverage make it a common sight on teams need a more offensive check to opposing weather. Latias's Psychic typing also lets it wall many Fighting types, which is again commonly connected to bulkier offensive teams. Levitate is an awesome ability as welk; an immunity to Spikes and TSpikes as well as Ground type moves let her switch in to absorb attacks even more frequently. Her Speed and also above average SpA let her perform an offensive tank role as well, which many Offensive teams like to use.


    CONS:
    Latios-
    ~Its reliance on Choice items to truly excel in today's metagame makes it easy Pursuit bait. Also, its inability to change moves also makes it a bit easier to wall than some other Special attackers in the tier. It also makes Latios wear down easily, especially when SStorm is up, as it switches frequently and can't heal itself when using a choice item. Less bulk also means it's easier to revenge kill and take down than his sister.

    Latias-
    ~It's quite weak initially and is still walled by the same amount of pokemon as Latios is, probably even more. She needs a couple of boosts under her belt to truly display any sort of offensive presence, or she needs to use a boosting item. She can also be trapped quite easily by Tyranitar / Scizor, and she hates status a lot more than Latios because of her more defensive nature.


    In conclusion, if you're looking for a fast, bulky, weather countering pokemon, use Latias. If offensive power and the ability to plow through unprepared teams is what you're looking for, then Latios is your man. Either way, both are great pokemon, and each hold their own niches in the metagame.
  20. Floodz66

    Floodz66

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    I love Latias. I only own Latias, however i have used both, and have to say, Latias is much more useful for my team then Latios.

    Very good special bulk even when not putting any EVs into it. It survived two Ice Beams in a row, and won me many a game. In my personal Opinion, one of the best OU dragons right now.
  21. Sacaen

    Sacaen

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2012
    Messages:
    90
    I think the big thing that Latias has over Latios is that she can be fit into teams easier as she is able to use her greater bulk to make her key resistances more useful to continually taking attacks throughout a match. Latios is much more shoehorned into running a choice item, and is alot more predictable. On the otherhand Latias is typically seen running a defensive set and when you run into her choice specs set it can often mean you lose a pokemon because it can be hard to see it coming sometimes.

    Example: (rotom-w just being used as a dummy to show the difference in power between the standard 252hp/252 spe leftovers set and 252spa/252spe choice specs damage)

    4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 75-88 (24.75 - 29.04%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 213-252 (70.29 - 83.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Sure it's not as much as Latios's Specs draco meteor which does 79.2-93.39% to the same Rotom-W, the difference is that Latios's DM is predictable as fuck, and you will be prepared for what is coming. A number of times I've had my Rotom-W in against latias thinking it would be safe to rest off damage, Twave, or voltswitch out of it expecting it to try to use it as set up bait or attack with a weak dragon pulse, only to be met with a massive draco meteor. If it was Latios in the same situation you would know the draco meteor would be coming. This alone gives Latias a large advantage as shes much less predictable than her brother.

    Latias makes for a much better CM user than Latios thanks to her greater bulk. In a similar vein she also often runs substitute which can allow her to avoid status and escape from tyranitar/scizor if used on the switch whereas for latios, tyranitar is death and scizor is too if its locked into the wrong move. Latias also often carries some form of mitigation to status via refresh, substitute, or a teammate. If Latios is targetted by a Twave, he will often be stuck with it for the rest of the match.

    Sure, Latios's power is undeniably strong, I'd just say that because Latias has much more viable options that she typically has an edge in winning the teamslot.
  22. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,516
    First off, Latias is a god in this metagame. I've been running it on nearly every team I have just because it's so damn useful. However, I prefer an EV spread of 104 HP / 152 SpA / 252 Spe. You don't need more Special Attack EVs than 152, which is enough to OHKO Keldeo after Stealth Rock. More bulk on Latias is always appreciated. It needs it for gargantuan attackers such as Choice Specs Keldeo.
  23. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
    is a Community Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,351
    To me Latias is that Pokemon that is just so great on paper, especially when team building, but is disappointing in practice. It really comes down to this when placing Latias on a team: she closes as many holes as she opens up. In early BW2, it was evident that Latias could stop those nasty threats like Breloom, Keldeo, Special Lando, Thunderus-T, and a general rain/sun check. I made it almost a rule to include her on almost everyone of my teams at that time period and others. Since then, the metagame has matured and most teams have adapted to her presence to check threats. Really, using her is opening yourself up to most standard teams.

    Take your cookie cutter Sand team for example. Considering that everyone and their mom are using RP Landorus with Tyranitar I would not rely on Latias to be my Lando-I counter. To quantify that for you with the usage stats, Tyranitar is by far Landorus-I's most common partner at 33.9%, 20.9% over the next closest Terrakion. How about your average rain team with Keldeo? You will either find yourself becoming setup bait or crippled at the hands of Ferrothorn or Jirachi since you are so incredibly easy to check lol@HP Fire in rain. Should I even address the issue of being weak to U-turn? It is not only Scizor's OHKO U-turn I am concerned with, it is becoming the crux for other Pokemon to gain momentum on you.

    My second beef with Latias is its quandary between speed, bulk, and power. You can only pick two of the three and each combination has its consequences. Without enough speed, essentially Max speed, you lose the ability to counter Thundurus-T, Landorus-I, and Keldeo. They will all be able to cleanly 2HKO with HP Ice. Not enough bulk aka max HP? You lose the ability to keep up with taking hits from the Pokemon you are supposed to counter in the long run during the match. If your opponent switches out to give you a chance to recover, it still is a lose of your momentum. No investment in power? Watch as half the tier laugh as they nullify your attempts to set up. Your pitifully weak Dragon Pulses and coverage will only get you so far in a tier full of Pokemon with U-turns and a game where the #1, #3, #4, and #8 Pokemon severely cripple or trap you.

    In short, my problem with Latias that whenever I use her, I feel as if my position is never improved. Latias' need to recover constantly if it is the LO set to check threats, inability to cause immediate damage with the bulkier CM sets, and weakness to U-turn (switch initiative)/Pursuit (elimination) never puts your opponent on the rocks. Ultimately when you using Latias to check threats, you are not the one controlling the match.

    And to those who might say "But Pillsbury you just don't know how to use Latias" I peaked pretty high with it during the BW1 era. So I can say with confidence I do.
  24. Meru

    Meru
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    866
    I feel if you're using early-game Latias to counter threats, you're doing it wrong. Latias shouldn't be your answers to things the second they come out. She's there when things have been weakened and statused. With proper early-game elimination of Tyranitar and Scizor, Latias truely shines.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)