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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Superpowerdude, Oct 7, 2012.
I wonder how a Roost + 3 Attacks set would do? Is D-nite too weak without band/life orb/DD?
I'm honestly in love with the mixed rain attacker set lately. I like the unpredictability of the set, theres nothing better than killing a unexpecting skarmory or gliscor on the switch. Pair this baby up with subCM jirachi and you got your self a true trolling combo sure to bring ragequitters and the lulz ;) with amazing synergy to boot :)
Dragonite @ Life Orb
EVs: 76Atk / 252 SAtk / 180 Spd
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Aqua Tail
My favorite set! Hurricane for dnite forgotten stab, and aqual tail for dat psuedo-stab! Thunder for taking care of pesky waters that my team hates and earthquake for luling at sun teams:)
I haven't personally tried a roost + 3 attacks set, seems interesting. I would find it lacking in power I guess, CB Dragonite has that immediate power and the priority extremespeed is excellent for revenging stuff like Latios and Volcarona, while DD lum just punchs holes and sweeps. I've only seen orb on mix rain nites, which is quite a interesting set in itself, hurricane hits hard and aqua tail does a ton in rain, even 2KHOing Sub cm rachi. There is also the factor of dragonite being slow, which is a burden in this fast paced metagame. With no ways to boost its speed Dragonite can be taken down quickly. If I run a non DD set I always prefer either a sub, bulky or CB set.
It's also good mixnite can come back in BW2, with the move tutor making superpower legal with MS. I've always had fun with mixnite in DPP and it's still fun to use in BW2, but it requires some good predicting skill. Multiscale it can be argued is what made dragonite seem the better dragon dancer than mence, but to be fair I've always liked a faster dragon dancer like mence, but the set it runs nowadays is a scarf one with moxie. I've always found keeping multiscale hard, as with weathers like sand, and sometimes SR not being able to be spun can make it harder for dragonite.
One thing I love about Dragonite is the way it can work in rain and sun, in sun it gets a boosted fireblast which helps it get past steels, while rain it gets a boosted waterfall or aquatail. I've always preferred waterfall for the flinch chance and most importantly the accuracy. One of my favourite sets to run with dragonite in rain is dd/waterfall/outrage/roost with lum, I've found great success with it and the boost to waterfall by rain means I don't always have to outrage something.
I would say Dragonite is an excellent pokemon all round, and this gen it is no longer in the shadows as a less used dragon.
Sorry for discusing Celebi, just to answer quickly.
Yes, I said that Perish Song is more Stall oriented, but I also think too is useful in Offensive or Balanced teams. I forgot to point out that.
But I think TW>Perish Song in general out of Stall, paralyzing things is more valuable now.
Heal Bell of course is great in Stall teams, specially makes Rest viable in these teams.
Going back to the current discussion, I think Dragonite may be more useful as paralysis(again, I focus on paralysis) spreader. Almost no one expects TW in Dragonite(Surf. Waterfall or Draco Meteor for Landorus in the switch-in)
Hydreigon seems better Mixed than Dragonite right now, with more Speed, more Sp Att and no SR weakness, but Hydreigon's Physical Attack is a bit low for a Wallbreaker, however, it's enough for it's purpose the majority of time.
Dragonite mixed, it is unexpected right now, but maybe isn't worth most of the time.
Thought I'd share my thoughts on Dragonite.
Recently, pretty much all Dragonites I've played against were the standard fully offensive DD sweeper. I for one (though this is just my opinion) feel that the set is a waste of Dragonites potential. It pretty much necessitates using a Rapid Spinner so that you can get that "moment of invincibility" that Multiscale provides. On top of that, the set is, for the most part, done better by Salamence, which is faster, more threatening when it initially comes in, and has Moxie.
Lately, I've been using the SubDD Dragonite set on my most recent team (which can be found in my signature), and it works wonders. The set pretty much spits on all walls and uses them as set up bait, and once it gets a Substitute and a Dragon Dance up it's very easy to continue accumulating boosts or stall out your opponents with Substitute and Roost. Roost also makes Multiscale very easy to abuse, and believe me, theres nothing more satisfying than watching your opponent desperately trying to break through a Multiscale Substitute.
I feel like this set should really get more recognition. It may lack coverage or the immediate power as the standard set, but it's easy for it to get up to +6, at which point the lack of coverage means nothing.
Dragonite @ Yache Berry
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Fire Punch / Aqua Tail
- ExtremeSpeed / Earthquake
I think I've described the benefits of Yache Berry on DDNite in a previous discussion, but here it is again for good measure. In my opinion, this is the best offensive set Dragonite can run in the current metagame. It allows it to survive all un-boosted, un-STABed Ice Beams after taking Stealth Rock damage (i.e. from Genesect), and can also survive Mamoswine's Ice Shard. Though losing Lum Berry has many obvious downsides, it's a compromise worth taking if you're going to seriously attempt a sweep in this metagame. Dragon Claw is preferable due to the lack of confusion, and it still OHKOs the majority of offensive Pokémon after they take hazard damage anyway. However, use Outrage if you really don't mind the confusion / you are using it on a DragMag team. Obviously, an appropriate coverage attack is needed in tandem with your Dragon STAB of choice. Both Fire Punch and Aqua Tail will OHKO Genesect (the latter only in rain after SR), an attribute that you'll need to make this set succeed (and I should add, it also makes Dragonite an incredible lure). The last move depends on whether you want to be able to pick off weakened faster threats, or take out Heatran if you're running Fire Punch. This set is not perfect though; you are still easily checked by other Dragons and Terrakion holding a Choice Scarf. However, it's about as relevant as a DDNite set could possibly be in BW2.
I find dragon dance dragonite a pain in the arse to use. It always seems to come in and dragon dance , get a k.o then is eaisily revenged killed due to its horrible speed against choice scarfes.
A set i found great to use recently is a parashuffler set. It can be a great help aginst sun teams slowing down threats such as venusaur with thunderwave. It also works well with tentacruel as it lays habdy toxic spikes, takes ice attacks and takes away entry hazards which can make dnite lose its important multiscale. Dnite also takes the earthquakes for tentacruel.
Personally, I think that Roost + 3 attacks is outclassed by Hydregion IMO.
With D-nite, you're forced to use Dragon Claw because locking yourself into Outrage defeats the purpose of the set, which is a massive drop in power compared to Hydreigon's Draco Meteor. And if you're going to lock into Outrage, just use CB instead. If you're going to use Draco Meteor instead of a physical Dragon-type attack, then Hydreigon has better SpA so why not use it instead?
Hydra doesn't lose out on any important coverage moves to D-nite either, since both get Fire Blast, Superpower and Earthquake, which are imo the important ones. D-nite gets Thunder and Hurricane, but that leans more to the LO Rain Tank version.
Dragonite is a little bulkier (91/95/100 vs 92/90/90) but I feel this is offset by the SR weakness. The only real advantage I see Roost + 3 attacks Dnite having over Hydra is being able to stall out a low-pp move with Multiscale + Roost shenanigans, which isn't something that happens too often.
In such a heavily offensive metagame, anything that can outspeed most scarfers after a single turn of set-up is automatically pretty decent. RP Genesect, Agility Thundurus-T, and Rain Dance Kingdra are examples of Pokemon that the common offense teams really struggle to handle thanks to a combination of blazing speed after 1 turn and excellent coverage.
Dragonite @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 SAtk / 236 Spd
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Fire Blast
If there has ever been a metagame to use Agility Dragonite over Dragon Dance, this is it. The loss of power is immediately noticeable, but the ability to outspeed practically every scarfer at +2 is amazing and shouldn't be overlooked, especially due to the incredibly fast paced and frail state of current OU. Most offensive teams rely completely on their Scarfed Genesect, Terrakion, Latios etc to revenge-kill Dragonite, so removing this option from them can often just mean gg in the late-game. A Naive nature with 236 Spd means Dragonite hits 280 Speed unboosted, outspeeding Adamant Lucario and below. At +2 this hits 560 Speed, with the fastest common scarfers only hitting 525 (base 110s). Max Attack is obvious, especially since you are running a neutral attack nature, and the leftover EVs go into SAtk to power up that Fire Blast.
The reduced damage output from this set means Spikes support (as well as the obvious Stealth Rock) is almost a necessity. As with any offensive Pokemon at the moment, Deoxys-D is one of the top teammates due to its reliability to get hazards up early game, although other leads like Bug Gem Scolipede (!) are also good for spikestacking whilst doing a good job of keeping opposing Deoxys-D from getting up their own hazards. If you aren't using a lead that beats Deoxys-D then spin support is pretty nice too.
This guy clearly isn't breaking through full defensive teams any time soon as it just lacks the power on Dragon Claw to break through most cores, but from experience its far more threatening to your standard offense teams than DDNite is atm. At best DDnite is a 1-for-1 vs the common teams around, but late-game Agility Dragonite can be a big threat that shouldn't be immediately dismissed.
Has anyone tried MonoNite?
Adamant (+Atk, -Sp. Atk)
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
- Dragon Claw
Weirdly effective. I tried it as an experiment and it raped things. The idea is to get at least two DDances, and you're basically unresisted, considering Steel is the only thing that resists Dragon.
DD Nite is ok, but in this fast paced meta, it's just asking to be revenge killed. Even at +2 it can be revenged if you run Adamant without ES, and if you run ES, you're going to miss out at hitting something.
MixNite is a terror. Nothing can switch in, and since Choice Band and DD is so popular, you may not even see coming.
AgiliNite is underrated, but I wouldn't use it outside of rain. STAB Hurricane with unpredictable coverage is the main draw.
BandNite is my favorite, but it's obviously going to be revenge killed as soon as you click Outrage.
I never seem to make mono-attack sets work. Latias, Dragonite, and Espeon all fail with me :(
I also Lol'd at Genesect being mentioned with every new PotW.
Agility Dragonite is actually a very interesting and effective set in this metagame. In such speed dependent metagame Agility sweepers are always effective, just look at RP Gene/Lando. I would actually say this set works better outside of Rain, contrary to what Wizarus said, as you can then get much better coverage in Fire Blast. That isn't to say this set doesn't work well in Rain, but the coverage that Dragon + Ground + Fire gives is pretty spectacular.
MonoAttacker Dragonite has also been used to a lot of success before. Stone used it a lot in BW1 and popularized the set as a Stall killer. I would definetly try some more defensive EV's on it as its main purpose is to setup extensively before it goes offensive, partly because everyone carries so many resists to Dragon-Type attacks.
I had actually screwed around with a LO Roost 3 Attacks DNite way back in BW1. The main appeal was having a strong Espeed that you could spam multiple times without becoming set up bait (Cause otherwise you should be using Mence). It also could beat those Scizor-Rotom cores that were running around everywhere at the time. I don't remember much what the set was though.
I really liked DNite and was glad to see it get Multiscale. The set I actually liked the most was ShuffleNite. Spreading paralysis and being stupidly hard hazard shuffler to force out was something I liked a lot. I was a lot worse teambuilder back when I used it so I never made a team that did it justice. However, I did build a spread that outclassed IMO the bland one given in the analysis that should still work fine in BW2. It was 252 HP/ 84 Def/ 172 SpDef with a Calm or Careful nature (depending on whether you used DTail or Whirlwind). This spread always beat Specs Latios 1 on 1 in non Sand weather as well as survive a CB Outrage from Salamence and beat even CB Terrakion (always one on one). This made it incredibly difficult to force out, much less avoid being crippled by TWave. He also helped alot in fighting rain/sun teams as he had plenty of switch in opportunities and could terrorize the latter with SR shuffling. The set hates status, though, and needs at least SR to be effective. Someday I'l get back to him but right now I don't have the time.
As far as DNite in general, I'll have to agree that CB is generally the best set. It's really hard to switch into or revenge thanks to that raw power and Multiscale. This makes it pretty valuable on dragon spam teams. Due to the low speed stat I don't think the offensive DD is as good as it was. Although, if you bring it in healthy on some set up fodder (like after a kill) it can take advantage of the forced switch and intact Multiscale to get 2 DDs in. Otherwise, you are probably better off with Bulky or Mono DD. RainNite is always a terror thanks to its powerful and haxy STAB Hurricane with the complementary Thunder. These two attacks can hax past checks/counters and cripple fast attackers all while leaving more than just a dent. Hazards go really well with it due to the many switches the hax forces and that can be profited on with a STAB DTail coming from a naturally high 134 base attack.
In general, DNite is more reliant on Multiscale than before due to the increased power found in some new offensive threats and new competetion in the head-on aggression department from Garchomp and Kyurem.
Edit: It was something like that. I remember it could outrun and OHKO the slower and bulkier Rotom with Outrage while 2HKOing the faster and more fragile one with ESpeed. I used it because I wanted something that was more flexible than the CB set with a bit more staying power while keeping its instantly strong attacks (plus it beat Scizor-Rotom cores). I think I used Fire Blast, though, which was another cool perk brought by using a LO over CB.
would the set be something like
252 attack 252speed 6hp
I am unsure the best ev's for the set whether it should be bulky or just all out offensive, it's been a while sinc ei used nite because of genesect.
Scarf Toed doesn't outspeed +1 Dragonite.
It does if you run the increasingly unviable Adamant nature for DD.
Oh, I always use +Spe natures on my DD.
Has anyone tried parafinch with Waterfall + Thunder Wave? I've seen people run it on Gyarados. And while Gyara does get STAB on Waterfall, I was wondering if it would work on Dragonte due being able to recover easier with Roost.
In my latest actually successful team I used offensive DD Dragonite as priority and midgame pressure. Lum berry makes it a decent check to Techniloom and it can occasionally pull off a couple of cheeky kills thanks multiscale. I feel like his late game potential has kind of decreased but he's still a monster midgame, especially if you manage to keep rocks off your side.
well that was a good 7 weeks guys! I really feel unmotivated to continue this project so i am going to lock this thread. I want to thank everyone who contributed to the PotW great job guys!
Edit: Princess Bri would like to continue this project so welcome to PotW and good luck Princess Bri!