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Pokemon of the Week #7 Dragonite

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Superpowerdude, Oct 7, 2012.

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  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    This is what many people think, and i believe one of the main reasons that Celebi is so underused. When a player is trying to cover huge threats of the meta in teabuilding, he asks itself: How can i deal with rain and sun? And he uses Latias instead of Celebi, because Latias possesses all the resistances of Celebi, less weaknesses, and even more resistances, along with better STAB. However, when taking a closer look at Celebi, its advantages become much clearer. First and foremost its Grass STAB alongside Natural Cure allow it to deal much better with Water and Ground types, such as Rotom-W and Gliscor. A common problem when i use Latias is that nasty Ttar weakness. Even though Latias counters Rotom-W, it can't kill it fast, and if Rotom-W uses Volt Switch and is paired with Ttar, Latias is as good as dead, except if it has Reflect. What's more is that Latias really dislikes WoW or T-Wave, which really hinter her walling and sweeping potential. Celebi can easily take everything from Rotom-W, and if Tyranitar comes in with Volt Switch, Celebi can either destroy it with a LO Leaf Storm, or Baton Pass out. Same for Scizor. Other advantages of Celebi are some support moves that Latias lacks, such as Heal Bell, Perish Song, U-turn, Baton Pass, and Stealth Rock, and the much better physical bulk. Here is a list of pokes in OU that Celebi handles better (some only a bit better and some a lot better) than Latias:

    Show Hide
    Politoed
    Keldeo
    Tentacruel
    Starmie
    Hippowdon
    Tyranitar
    Scizor
    Gliscor
    Jellicent
    Latios
    Latias
    Hydreigon
    Breloom
    Espeon
    Gastrodon
    Gyarados
    Mamowsine
    Reuniclus
    Toxicroak
    Jirachi
    SubDD Dragonite
    Vapreon
  2. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
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    as much as I hate using thunder wave, celebi is one of the best users of it in OU. Paralyzing two of its most common switch ins in genesect and tornadus-t is incredibly helpful. Without their speed and the 25% chance to be immobile makes them essentially nonfactors the rest of the game.

    Addtionally, Celebi is a decent switch in to Terrakion. They have to rely on stone edge hitting consecutively if it's LO and if it isn't, 252 hp celebi is guaranteed to live 2 stone edges from jolly terrak (assuming rocks/sand isn't up). It handles the other fighting pokemon in the meta really well. Specs Keldeo can 2hko under rain unless Celebi carries a healthy amount of spdef EVs, but otherwise it can't really touch Celebi. Breloom is hard countered by Celebi. Whatever moveset it tries to use, Celebi is there to absorb any hit.

    Celebi's purpose on a team is specific and it has a certain niche in the meta. It isn't like Genesect where you can throw it on your team and it will probably contribute to your team.
  3. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    I think Celebi should have more love.
    It has an insane support movepool, and thanks to its base stats, Celebi will still deal a good amount of Damages.
    It fits in alot of teams, and bring what the team lacks easily :

    - Leaf Storm
    - U-Turn
    - Stealth Rocks / Thunder-Wave / Heal Bell / Perish Song / Hidden Power
    - Recover / Leech Seed / Light Screen / Reflect

    Of course it's possible to mix between the two last slots, I like myself using U-Turn and Leaf Storm as I love the use of Celebi in ADV teams with Baton Pass, keeping the momento as they switch on your set-up bait. You can go for a defensive pivot, or an offensive threat. Anyway, Celebi will still threat alot of things with his stabbed Leaf Storm, before U-Turning away.

    And now, a set that I love :

    - Sword Dance / Calm Mind
    - Baton Pass
    - Zen Headbutt / Psychics
    - Recover / Seed Bomb / Gigan Drain

    Let's pair it with Terrakion or Keldeo, you wont be disapointed as they can handle everything that Celebi fears. A defensive EVs spreads should be used in this case.

    * I'm currently trying to build a team around CM passing Celebi and Keldeo, along with a Mew and a Hydreigon ... I must admit I love teams that have a Baton Passing core, without being "go full retard Baton Passing chain".
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Celebi and Ferrothorn are the best defensive Grass-types in OU. Celebi does not face a lot of competition with anything else except from Ferrothorn for the position of a bulky Grass type, imo. Of 'course sometimes Roserade or Amoonguss will suit your team better, but Celebi and Ferrothorn are easily the best ones, and for good reason.

    Celebi is better than most other Grass-types (excluding Ferro), not only because of its movepool, but also because of its ability, typing, and excellent stats. Celebi's typing is more suited to special walling than Amonguss's or Roserade's, as Ground and Psychic resistances are more valuable than a Bug, Poison, Ghost, and Dark neutrality. Celebi counters some major special threats, such as non Specs Latios, Latias, Sheer Force Landorus, Reuniclus, and CMSubRachi partly thanks to its typing. Even if Amoonguss had Perish Song it wouldn't be able to handle those mons, because Landorus easily 2HKOes, and Latios, Latias, Reuniclus, and CM Jirachi all can destroy it with Psyshock/Psychic. Its ability in combination with Recover, makes it one of the most resilient pokemon in OU. Yeah Amoonguss has Regenerator, but it can't avoid 3HKOes because of the lack of recovery. It is also annoyed by status such as burn, paralyze and sleep, all of which Celebi can take with ease. A burned Amoonguss is always 2HKOed from Specs Keldeo's HP in rain after SR for example, while Celebi is never 2HKOed. Finally Celebi has an actual Speed stat and a real attacking movepool, unlike Amoonguss, meaning it can outspeed and OHKO threats before taking a hit, or take a hit and OHKO with its stronger special attack and secondary STAB move in Psychic.

    My favorite Celebi set right now, and Celebi's best set by far in this meta is this:
    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Giga Drain / Psychic
    - U-turn / Baton Pass
    - Perish Song
    - Recover

    16 Speed EVs to outspeed Adamant Breloom .A STAB move of your choice is obvious. Giga Drain is the all around better move to handle waters, but Psychic is great if you want Celebi to handle better Breloom, Thundurus-T, Conkedlurr, and Gengar. U-turn is used for momentum, and it allows Celebi to not be a free switch in for all the dangerous pokes that lurk in the corner, such as Dragons, Genesect, Scizor, Tornadus-T, and Ttar. Baton Pass does the same, but its main downfall is that it can't break Dnites MS, Zam's sash, and does zero damage to Lati@s, Ttar, and Hydreigon, which U-turn hits quite hard. The price you pay is worth it though, as with Baton Pass you can escape from any non Scarf Tyranitar and Scizor without any worries at all. Perish Song is an awesome move that fits to Celebi's role as a glove, and allows it it beat almost any special set-up sweeper 1 on 1, while also beating last mons and baton pass teams. Recover is used to OHKO Ho-Oh after SR, 1 layer of Spikes, and sandstorm damage :D

    EDIT: Fixed the nature thing.
  5. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Am I the only who has been enjoying sucess with Nasty Plot Celebi?

    [​IMG]
    Lucas (Celebi) @ Life Orb Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Nasty Plot
    - Giga Drain
    - Psychic / Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Hidden Power [Fire] / Earth Power

    It's generally a good late-game sweeper against rain teams, but can also work against other types of teams. Celebi still has the bulk to tank Ice Beam from things like Politoed, and Hidden Power Ice from Sheer Force Landorus, as long as it is healthy. It can then attack or if the opposing Pokémon is slower, it can nab a boost and then attack.

    This thing can work well even on sandstorm, as Giga Drain greatly mitigates the recoil from Life Orb, and other sorts of passive damage; Giga Drain makes this set very attractive.

    Apart from Giga Drain, Celebi has coverage moves. You can go with either the combination of Psychic and Hidden Power Fire, or Earth Power and Hidden Power Ice.

    I generally prefer using Psychic and Hidden Power Fire, for two reasons. Psychic is the only other attack that Celebi has that receives STAB, and is generally as powerful as a super-effective HP Ice or HP Fire. I also use Psychic because no other attack on my team can hit Fighting-types for super-effective damage, despite the fact that many Fighting-types have a secondary typing that makes them weak to some other common attack. Hidden Power Fire means that Scizor that think that are safe can be promptly destroyed; the same can be said about all Ferrothorn, Forretress and non-Choice Scarf Genesect. Also, when boosted, HP Fire can already kill most Steel-types, and it doesn't fail to cover Skarmory and Bronzong, unlike Earth Power. However, it has a big disadvantage; it leaves Celebi completely walled by Heatran.

    However, Earth Power and Hidden Power Ice are another good combination. With Earth Power, Heatran is sent to the hell, and it can still take care of most Steel-types; in fact, it's stronger than HP Fire against most Steel-types, especially under rain. However, Celebi will have problems with those that aren't weak to Ground, since they can usually survive and OHKO back. Scizor has a chance to be OHKOed, but it's still only a chance. HP Ice may appear to be outclassed by Psychic, but HP Ice has some advantages. It means that Latias, Latios and Hydreigon no longer wall Celebi, as it now has coverage against them. Also, when boosted by Nasty Plot, Hidden Power Ice can OHKO many variants of Dragonite through Mulstiscale! Although some variants that invest on bulk can survive, even the bulkiest of them cannot survive after Multiscale has been broken. Also, HP Ice ensures that Celebi is not walled by opposing Celebi.

    What do you think of the Nasty Plot Celebi? Is it good? Is it bad? Is it outclassed?
  6. Dracule Mihawk

    Dracule Mihawk

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    I had quite good success with Celebi in an offensive role back in BW 1, where I would argue the Nasty Plot set worked the best. I would usually run speed to outspeed just jolly Mamoswine, and put the rest into HP to give Celebi some bulk. I never really liked recover Nasty Plot sets, the coverage is needed. I think NP Celebi can work in this current Meta, but it does require some support. Obviously with stuff like Genesect and Tornadus running around really hamper its sweeping potential, but that's what team mates are for. I've personally found the Specially defensive set that alex posted to be quite useful and the best set for me at the moment. I find it to be a good check to things like Lati@s and Keldeo while keeping momentum. I've found U-turn to be better move than Baton pass, as breaking Dragonite's MS, and gaining momentum justify being at the risk of pursuited.

    I use psychic to better check breloom on this celebi set. What I love about Celebi is that is quite a good utility mon . Also, some Celebi run thunderwave, which can be quite useful. As it slows down fast threats such as tornadus t and genesect who think they can switch into you easily.

    Support wise for the NP set, I've always found genesect to be a good partner. He threaten Lati@s, Dragonite and hydregion, while keeping momentum. T wave support is quite good as well to slow down faster threats that can threaten celebi, so stuff like twave ferro can be quite useful in this role.
  7. lokt

    lokt

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    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 224SDef / 32 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Baton Pass
    - Recover
    - Thunder Wave
    I thought this set was on site, but I guess not. This celebi set allows celebi to cripple it's 2 most common switchins with thunder wave, and to pass cm boosts to it's team. Baton pass has the added advantage of escaping pursuit users, and can still be used without boosts to gain momentum. Celebi can set up calm minds on many common pokemon in bw2, including sheer force lando, keldeo, heatran!, ferrothorn, politoed, starmie, and alakazam. The cm set also allow celebi to beat agility thudurus better. Another bonus is that many people will not switch in tornadus or genesect after you reveal thunder wave, which can lead to a free cm boost. I've been using this set along with sub hydra and tornadus-t and it has been very successful for me.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I just wonder why anyone would want to use Celebi as a sweeper, when it has so many better things to be doing. Why use NP when so many Pokemon can outspeed and OHKO you? Even if you kill something, and the opponent doesn't immediately bring in their Genesect/Torn-T/Latios/Gengar, why would you set up, if you are going to be forced out in the next turn.

    Can't you simply predict the switch in and hit it with T-Wave/HP Fire/Psychic/Earth power? It pays off way more, costs less turns, and you have an extra move slot this way. Celebi works much better as a tank right now, rather than a sweeper. People should finally understand that so few pokemon are able to switch easily into offensive Celebi. Almost anything offensive is crippled by T-Wave, Ground types are murdered by Leaf Storm, Thundurus-T dies to Psychic, and any slow Steel-type gets murdered by HP Fire or Earth Power in Heatran's case.
  9. Dracule Mihawk

    Dracule Mihawk

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    I strongly agree with you. Like I said previously I've found Celebi's support role to be very good in BW2. I don't use NP Celebi for the fact that I would rather use that team slot to have utility, as there are better sweepers than Celebi atm. And the omnipresent Genesect just makes it even more harder. I would rather hit it on the switch to neuter typical switch ins. That's why I think Thunder wave is so good on celebi as it messes over its usual switch ins and opens up ways for other pokemon to sweep. Celebi is still the premier rain check even with torna t going about.
  10. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    Just saying--NP celebi is like the single biggest threat to my rain stall team--I have absolutely nothing reliable for it and can't use something like sect cause I already have a non-defensive poke--thanks a lot alexwolf (jk, i love defense of the titans). It puts a ton of pressure on rain teams in general too.

    I agree that the set that alexwolf posted is probably celebi's best bet in the current meta--i think twave deserves a slash over perish song though, especially if you're using BP. Also, BP is basically always > u-turn unless you're using perish song, since it escapes pursuit while u-turn is doing like nothing.

    I'm very surprised though, one of celebi's biggest niches is going totally unregarded--celebi is like the best user of heal bell in the current meta. I'm in a stally mode right now, and heal bell celebi is invaluable. The set I run is:
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 236 HP / 220 Def / 36 SDef / 16 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Recover
    - Heal Bell
    - Psychic
    - Perish Song
    Heal Bell is the main focus of the set, allowing celebi to heal its teammates. Recover to keep it healthy, Perish Song to not be set-up bait and to check last-mon sweepers (celebi has awesome typing for this--it can pretty much stall out many common set-up sweepers at +6, including Reuniclus, subCM rachi, and others). With the given EVs, celebi is a great switch-in to terrakion, taking like 30% from an unboosted SE and doing a ton with psychic. it is also like the best breloom check in existence (bar xatu maybe?). EVs give max HP to lefties, max defense to a jump point, 16 spe to outspeed loom etc, and the rest in SpD. This conveniently lets it stall out SF lando HP ices in sand, as it takes like 47-52% and can easily stall LO with recover.

    Also, celebi is substantially bulkier than latias on the physical side--it takes scarfsect u-turns for ~70%, since they'll get the SpA boost. Beat that, latias! Natural Cure is also a godsend.
  11. PDC

    PDC i zimbra
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    Nasty Plot Celebi had a time in OU where it was such a great and surprising force that nobody prepared for it. I remember basically everybody used it and it was practically the new Genesect in a way as it just dominated the ladder for a little while. It was probably hit it's peak after everybody started knowing about it. It was no longer just the good players that used it anymore, and that was really where the end started to come for the Nasty Plot set. It again hit a high point when Rain Stall, especially undisputed's team was at the peak as well. It was everywhere and was often hard to deal with, so Nasty Plot Celebi was brought up again in usage to combat that threat. For the time being Celebi was called an amazing threat against both Sand and Rain teams. It was everywhere and it was probably one of sands best counters against Rotom-W, Gastrodon, and Ferrothorn. It could beat them all and just destroy the standard teams at the time. Celebi was really a gift to everybody who was calling rain broken as Tornadus was still a rare scene at the time and Celebi could basically destroy the standard rain team. Celebi then shifted it's role a bit during the end of BW1 when the typical laddering team was created by DarkAzelf. VoltTurn with Sand and Terrakion was usually held together by Celebi as it could safely beat Rotom-W and other bulky waters. It worked great as a usual Life Orb Paralysis variant which was quite useful. It also could break VoltTurn cores which was pretty cool. Celebi was great in BW1, but not anymore sadly.

    For the most part Celebi fell down the ranks by the increase of Tornadus usage, the introduction of Genesect, the increase of dragons and the overall speed issue it suffered with. It couldn't break through rain teams as easy as it once could. It just couldn't because they for the most part carried Tornadus - T or Genesect to put a ful stop to it. Rain stall's popularity also decreased and Sand started to care less about it over time. In BW2 Celebi really shouldn't be running NP anymore, at least from my experience with it in this metagame. I am really loving it's Tinkbell Paralysis support set more than anything else right now as it can lure in Genesect, Latios, Dragonite among others and cripple the, sufficiently. It really is great and alexwolf has hit the nail on the head with how good it is in the metagame. It is still very strong and can still break up rain teams somewhat, which I think is pretty cool. Surprisingly it is much better than Nasty Plot could have done in any way at all. The specially defensive Perish Song set is also really cool. It can defeat Rotom-W, Latios in some cases, Reuniclus, Gastrodon, Thundurus - T and Landorus - I with ease. So although the days of Nasty Plots Celebi reign are gone, at least for now that is, these two new sets still give Celebi some good uses in this metagame. Pretty interesting PoTW, a real nice Pokemon with some good history behind it. I remember franky's team which used NP Celebi when it was brand new and it destroyed everybody on the ladder when I used it. I mis that set, but Tinkerbell is just such a better option in this metagame.
  12. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I think that this is also true for most sweepers. There are things that you need to eliminate before you can sweep. Maybe this is just personal preference, but NP Celebi for me is just as good as the Tinkerbell set. The dragons cited above can also be defeated by Celebi. The problem is that Celebi cannot switch directly on them, and can only defeat them if they haven't previously setup-ed.

    But the Tinkerbell set is not bad by any means, ant is in fact, a great lure for all Tornadus-T/Genesect running around. I've used a modified version with Expert Belt/Meadow Plate with U-Turn, Thunder Wave, Psychic/Hidden Power Fire and Leaf Storm. Both EP or Meadow Plate made Leaf Storm still strong enough to OHKO most bulky Water-types, and the lack of Life Orb means that Celebi doesn't die as easily as it would be without Recover, especially if you use this thing on a sandstorm team. The lack of power on neutral hit sucks if you aren't using a Meadow Plate (that's why I prefer to use Meadow Plate with Psychic, and Expert Belt with HP Fire), but the lack of Life Orb means that you can use U-Turn without worrying about Celebi dying too quickly.

    I think that if Genesect gets banned, the NP set will improve substantially, as Tornadus-T will then be the only threat waiting to destroy Celebi on rain teams. Once Tornadus-T is removed from the opponent's team (which is much easier to do than removing Genesect), there aren't much things that can stop Celebi from sweeping.
  13. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    I am trying a similar set:

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - U-turn
    - Thunder Wave
    - Recover

    I am considering to switch Giga Drain to Psychic, because I really miss any good move to handle better Breloom and the rest of Bulky Waters are neutral or weak to Psychic like Politoed, but Starmie but U-turn and Psychic really hurts Tentacruel. U-turn seems better in this meta, because Scizor and Tyranitar are now more uncommon. Sadly, without Giga Drain is very Tyranitar-weak with Pursuit, well with Giga Drain isn't the best counter to Tyranitar but at least does something. Paralyzing Tornadus-T or Genesect in the switch is godly in a metagame based on Speed.

    Also, Why Careful? A mistake while writing?

    I think Perish Song is more Stall oriented, but it's nice to force to switch mons hidden on a Substitute.

    I tried Specially Defensive Meloetta in OU with Thunder Wave and Perish Song(well, it was OU recently by default), but, except for being the best Gengar counter of the game along with Jirachi and Mandibuzz, it's lack of resistances makes Celebi better in this role IMO.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    @DFA

    NP Celebi is mediocre because it gets revenge killed by a ton of stuff, and has many counters even at +2, meaning it needs a ton of support to work. So usually, it is way better to give up Nasty Plot for an extra coverage move or Recover. Other set-up sweepers (good ones of course) have similar problems, but not to such a large degree, as they can sweep better and/or get revenge killed harder.

    As for SpD Celebi, any of Perish Song / Heal Bell / T-Wave are viable in the last slot, but Perish Song is generally the most useful move, and not only for stall teams. Perish Song allows Celebi to deal with almost every CM user in OU, and some other set-up sweepers, such as SubDDNite, which is huge. Killing the last mon is just a sweet bonus that defensive teams love and doesn't mean that Perish Song is only for more defensive teams.

    For examle when i used Celebi with Hippowdon and CB Tyranitar i didn't need Perish Song, as Hippo deals with CM Jirachi and SubDDNite, while Tyranitar deals with CM Latias and CM Reuniclus, so i used T-Wave in its place. I also like to use Heal Bell Celebi alongside Rest Heatran and/or RestTalk Gyarados (which is a very good mon for defensive teams atm).
  15. Dragonfruit

    Dragonfruit

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    uhh celebi sux hail ezpwn ez.

    ok not really but since genesect is like everywhere...... and number 1 in usage.... celebi has to run hidden power fire or thunder wave to be of any use otherwise people can just keep switching genesect in for free to gain ezmomentum or ezkill celebi its as easy as that. thats the only way for celebi to be effective because both its attacks are resistsed by genesect and all it does is give ur opponent momentum. so the best celebi has to be like... defensive to deal with keldeo n shit like this:

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 144 SAtk / 108 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Psychic
    - Thunder Wave
    - Giga Drain
    - Recover


    in black and white 2 stuff has to be able to dent other stuff unless ur using stall lol which is weird. basically this one outspeeds jolly breloom n stuff and hits hard with stabs and has max hp to switch into stuff i guess. with 4 defense evs genesect gets a special attack boost so ur incoming switch wont take a shitton from a +1 uturn since i bet genesect is going to uturn lol... thunder wave is for genesect switch ins of course u could also use hp fire but thunder wave helps against a lot of other stuff too.
  16. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude is an official Custom Title Rater
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    Ok good discussion on Celebi everyone i will update Celebis sets when i have time (which will hopefully be soon)

    and the next pokemon of the week is...



    [​IMG]
    Dragonite
    Type: Dragon / Flying
    Base Stats: 91 HP / 134 Atk / 95 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 80 Spe
    Abilities: Multiscale

    Notable Moves:
    - Dragon Dance
    - Thunderwave
    - Earthqauke
    - Outrage
    - Dragon Claw
    - Fire Punch
    - Roost
    - Extreme Speed
    - Hurricane
    - Dragon Tail
    - Waterfall

    Dragonite is one of the most threatening sweepers in the ou tier. He has the amazing Multiscale letting Dragonite take half damage form moves when he is at full health. It is not only his outright sweeping prowess that makes him deadly but his versatility as well. Dragonite is known to run a parashuffler set, rain tank sets, Choice Banded sets you name it. With Genesect in #1 usage some people are starting to look down on Dragonite however he is still a big threat to a lot of teams. What are your thoughts of Dragonite?

    Ladder Challenge! If you make it to the top 10 on the ladder using Celebi please post proof hear and share you experience and you will be put into the PotW hall of fame! Also any good sets of the PotW posted will go into the PotW sets!
  17. Ithilanor

    Ithilanor

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    I'm interested to hear how people have been using Dnite in the Genesect era. Looking at last months Suspect stats, Dnite was down at #16, with ~11% usage. Most of that was DDnite; I'm surprised to see so many people still used it with ScarfSect around.
  18. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    I think due to the prevalence of Genesect, CBNite became a lot more used, and while there are still many DDNites running around, CBNite was able to do something to a weakened Genesect with ESpeed. That said I am still a firm believer that DD sets are by far his best, whether its a more Bulky set, or just an Offensive one.

    Dragonite has always been one of my most favourite Pokes to use because even after just 1 DD he can start to seriously flow through teams. Granted you will always be walled by a few things because you only really get two coverage moves at best on a DD set, or one if running ESpeed, so the problems that have always plagued Dragonite will still be there.
  19. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    Did...did someone say D-Nite?1?
    *takes thread to bathroom and locks the door

    Well let's some up the points here:

    1) Only viable ability is Multiscale

    2) consequently you won't be able to use him effectively under hail and sand

    3) Otherwise he fits anywhere else, immense movepool, special And physical STABS in gen 5

    4) On weatherless offensive sets and sun, the infamous dd fire pwnch es outrage lum nite takes the cake, while the perfect coverage CB set is also a good choice to break through teams

    5) Stall nites set depends on whether yiu use weather or not (so punny). Main idea is to abuse MS and roost while spreading status, phazing or using attacks is your choice really

    6) Rain takes away your fire but gives a mixed set from heaven (why so punny?). Thunder. Hurricane, Waterfall is just a rain drop from what he can do

    7) D-Nite has perfect coverage 120 moves like FB, Blizz, Thunder that goes with a resepectable SPA as well as moves like Superpower, Agility qmong others but certain things like the absence of gravity teams and speed monsters such as Tornaduz makes new sets slightly troublesome
  20. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
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    572
    I'm really not a fan of DDNite right now. The prevalence of Genesect makes sweeping with it a lot less practical than it used to be. Imo, It's most effective set is the specially defensive set with Hurricane/Thunder/Dragon Tail/Roost in the rain. There's not a lot that can safely switch in on it, and it fits really well on defensive or balance oriented rain teams.
  21. Sacaen

    Sacaen

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2012
    Messages:
    94
    My problem with Dragonite is how easily it's Multiscale is rendered completely useless. Stealth Rock, Hail, Sandstorm, all automatically mean no multiscale, and any hit switching in also negates it. It's amazing when you can bring Dragonite in with Multiscale intact, but I've noticed it is more often than not, broken, at least in my experience.

    On my dual screen team I feel like there is dwindling reasons to use it over Garchomp, which has better typing with an electric immunity a rock resistance, STAB Earthquake, and similar bulk with multiscale broken. On the other hand Dragonite has a better movepool, being able to boost it's speed past that of garchomp's with Dragon Dance, and access to priority via Extremespeed. While I still use Dragonite over Garchomp, I think it's about time I break down and see if I can get better results with Chomp.
  22. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,486
    DDNite really isn't that good in this meta; BW1 already had stuff like Mamoswine available to check it (on top of Multiscale being broken very easily), but adding Genesect into the mix was DDNite's final nail in the coffin. In the Genesect meta, I have never seen anyone successfully sweep with DDNite. Admittedly, ExtremeSpeed is cool, but that G-weakness...

    In this meta, I've found Choice Band Dragonite to be better overall since I've found that it keeps Multiscale intact a little more effectively than DDNite since it doesn't have to bother with setup (still broken to any attack though, so...). However, what draws me away from Dragonite is its heavy dependence on support; First, Rapid Spin/Magic Bounce is mandatory, as that's the only way you'll have any hope of keeping Multiscale intact. Second, you probably want Rain/Sun to prevent Sand/Hail damage from breaking Multiscale. That's already occupying two whole teamslots just so you can effectively use an ability that most likely will only stay intact for a single turn. Add on its average 80 base Speed to that and you're just allowing a whole bunch of Pokemon to outspeed and deal heavy damage to you (some of which, i.e. Haxorus, Kyurem-B, and Mamoswine, outright OHKO you through Multiscale). And this is to think Dragonite was suspect once... Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Guess people are just more adapted to Dragonite than they were before.
  23. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
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    775
    I still find that CBNite has quite a good niche in this meta: CB Extremespeed is very valuable, and while Genesect indeed threatens it with Ice Beam, you can easily play around it somewhat, since every decent team will have a Genesect check somewhere. Nite is also quite bulky and, if your team is designed to avoid SR set-ups (for example, Taunt Terrakion + a spinner) Nite can check or outright counter lots of things that could give you headaches otherwise. Obviously it won't be ubiquitous like before (but this trend IMHO started when the new Therians formes came out, and everyone started running Mamoswine in every team, so it's only partially Genesect-related) but still can do its work somehow.

    For offensive DD sets, it looks quite worse, since they need both a free turn and hazards removal, and even then the opponent can just ruin everything with a Scarf Genesect. In a fast paced metagame like this, removing all the checks/counters before attempting to sweep with DDNite is increasingly hard, thus you'll often find yourself spamming attacks without being able to set-up, and in this situation a Choice set tends to perform better in my opinion. SubDD is quite different, but I never used it much so I can't really speak here.

    Sets (just in case they're not obvious enough) (open)

    CBNite:
    [​IMG]
    Dragonite @ Choice Band | Multiscale
    Adamant | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    - Outrage
    - Extremespeed
    - Fire Punch / Waterfall
    - Earthquake / Superpower / Dragon Claw

    DDNite:
    [​IMG]
    Dragonite @ Lum Berry / Leftovers | Multiscale
    Adamant | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Extremespeed
    - Fire Punch / Earthquake
  24. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    8,564
    I fail to see how Genesect fares any better as a Dragonite killer than other revenge killers that has been taking down Dragonite for the past two years. You guys realize that Genesect gets a +1 Atk boost from Dragonite, so it can't KO it if Multiscale is intact, right? With Multiscale broken, of course +0 Ice Beam KOs, just like how Scarf Toed's Ice Beam KOs or Scarf Jirachi's Ice Punch KOs. I fail to see what's so "spectacular" about Genesect in terms of revenging Dragonite.

    Maybe it could just be that people have smartened up to DDNite's antics after years of dragon spam? Or perhaps BW2 brought new threats like RP Landorus, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, and Tornadus-T that make for an unfriendly environment for Dragonite? Idk, but the cause for every decline can't always be pinned down to Genesect -_-;; If anything DragMag are tailor-made to beat teams dependent on Genesect for their dragon-killing needs.

    IMO, the dragons that really got hit hard by Genesect are the Lati twins and Haxorus. Dragonite is still a fearsome Pokemon, as indicated by its solid OU standing.
  25. Asek

    Asek ,
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    592
    I was never a fan of offensive DDnite ever tbh. I always thought salamence did the job loads better at going at a full out offensive DD set with its higher speed and access to Fire Blast, which deals massive damage to Skarmory and other physical walls that can take +1 Dnites Fire Punch. If I really wanted to use Dnite for Dragon Dance I always found the bulky Sub + DD set was what it had really over salamence. With above average bulk + Multiscale it was pretty easy to sweep with if support was provided, and because it couldn't be revenge killed or statused it was a really great set, and it can still hold its own somewhat in the current OU. Suprised nobody brought up the fact that the rise of DragMag with Kyu-B's introduction into the tier has also left Dnite with less set up oppurtunites, as he can very rarely find a chance to set up against these sort of teams, and he doesn't usually find a spot in full on DragMag teams, which instead opt for naturally faster dragons, with salamence usually getting the nod over dnite. However should he get the boost somehow, GL handling him

    CBnite as said before is where its at. ExtremeSpeed coming off CBnite is one of the best revenge killing tools in the whole tier, and once you've gotten steels out of the way it can really start to deal pain out with Outrage absolutly demolishing anything that tries to switch in. Superpower is a cool tutor move that CBnite can really take advantage of, giving it a way to hit Air Balloon Tran and ferrothorn in rain very hard. IMO what CBnite has really got going for it is that it doesn't need the extensive support that the DD sets do. Rapid Spin although appreciated is not necessary at all, and you don't need weather, although Rain or Sun is appreciated to avoid residual damage and gain a boosted Waterfall/ Fire Punch respectively.

    Also, does anyone with experience of it know if ParaShuffler Dnite is viable at all? It was pretty average in BW1 and now with the rise of many of DNites counters it seems to me that it would be a wast of a team slot, but I don't know somebody may be able to salvage some use from it.

    (Agility Dnite lures in and beats Gene too ;])
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