I killed that person's kind of logic right after your first post here. Put simply, Nintendo's been telling us about IVs/EVs for a while now. Like I said before, Nintendo's been telling us to try catching multiple Pokemon and see which one has better stats as far back as Stadium. That's IVs they're talking about there.
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Pokemon Philosophy: Is abusing the RNG cheating?
- Thread starter Blitzkreig Harmonic
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Comparisons between the PRNG and EV/IV are used as examples. Those who argue in favour of PRNG != Cheating (like me) say this:
Exploiting PRNG to get good Pokemon is equivalent to exploiting the IV/EV system to get good pokemon.
Exploiting IV/EV is not considered cheating, at least generally.
Therefore, exploiting PRNG should not be considered cheating under the same ruleset that says "exploiting IV/EV != cheating".
So, bottom line.
RNG same as IV/EV Breeding & Training? Yes/No If so why or why not?
If so, that means its the same as RNG.
Thus if RNG is cheating IV/EV Breeding & Training are Cheating as well?
RNG same as IV/EV Breeding & Training? Yes/No If so why or why not?
If so, that means its the same as RNG.
Thus if RNG is cheating IV/EV Breeding & Training are Cheating as well?
You've got it backwards. The logic they're using is:
IV Breeding and EV training are not cheating which implies that RNG is not cheating.
..since they are being put in the same boat. It's a given that IV breeding and EV training are not cheating since it's widely accepted among the competitive battling communities.
IV Breeding and EV training are not cheating which implies that RNG is not cheating.
..since they are being put in the same boat. It's a given that IV breeding and EV training are not cheating since it's widely accepted among the competitive battling communities.
If you're going to go down that road, I'll have you know that there's no way to know the full extent of EV training or IV breeding without hacking either. X-Act and Peterko's Hidden Power breeding guides certainly could not exist without it. Even something as basic as an IV calculator requires hacking the game to create, since otherwise we wouldn't know how stats are calculated.
And you're going to have to object to Shoddybattle's mere existence, as well.
i can´t find a reason to tell that RNG abuse is cheating, also I think that call it "RNG abuse" is wrong, understanding the RNG to know the outputs given the inputs it´s a smart technique to save time and get what you want, why a trainer is going to waste his time trying his "luck" when as carl said there is no luck in the game everything is determined by the RNG, for me it´s like an engineer trying his luck and building a house without any calculations to see if the house can stand, if it collapses then it was bad luck just build another one and see if it is good, that doesn´t happen in real life, the engineers run calculations before building and then they know the house will be good, then build and get a good house instead of keep guessing until they get the desired result after wasting time, money and resources. If we know how the RNG works why keep guessing?
Well, honestly, I can't say what hasn't been said already.
Another thing I like to point out is that GameFAQs has quite a few FAQs written solely on how to abuse the RNG for some games, such as Pokemon Emerald (last time I checked, anyway), Golden Sun (And TLA), and Fire Emblem 6, 7, and 8. Sure, these may all be GBA games, but chances are that 95% of the people who currently have a DS have had a GBA before, and that if people had GBA, majority of them played one of the above mentioned games.
@Carl: Totally off topic, but I like your old Avatar better. :P
I can't believe these topics keep coming up on what are supposedly competitive boards. Anyone who argues against AR/RNG are applying some personal morality to the team building process, and hence are caring about something outside of the standard competition.
You cannot call yourself a competition battler if the method your opponent made his/her team means anything to you; all that matters is that their team has in-game legal stats.
Especially since it's impossible to distinguish between someone who got lucky with the RNG to someone who abused the RNG to someone who used an AR properly.
You cannot call yourself a competition battler if the method your opponent made his/her team means anything to you; all that matters is that their team has in-game legal stats.
Especially since it's impossible to distinguish between someone who got lucky with the RNG to someone who abused the RNG to someone who used an AR properly.
The way I see it, if you're abusing the PRNG, you better be accepting battles with legal hacks.
IVs and EVs are completely different. GameFreak has left many hints and even outright told us they were for us to exploit. I've yet to see any in-game character or GameFreak even try to hint at the PRNG.
And yeah Carl, you're more Gary than Ivysaur.
IVs and EVs are completely different. GameFreak has left many hints and even outright told us they were for us to exploit. I've yet to see any in-game character or GameFreak even try to hint at the PRNG.
And yeah Carl, you're more Gary than Ivysaur.
Well, I'd just like to mildly contest this point (throw my two cents in and leave). I don't like legal hacks because it's a very direct way of editing the RAM. The RNG abuses code that is already in the game, generating flawless pokemon that adhere to the rules of the game code. Legal hacks don't. I completely understand where you are coming from. Flawless pokemon should fight flawless pokemon to a lot of people. However, my definitions of legitimacy make me avoid legal hacks.
Almost everyone expoits knowledge of the RNG whether they know it or not in some way or form.
For instance, imagine that you want to get yourself a Gyarados. Should you limit yourself to the first one you catch? Of course not! Various NPCs (I can't remember which ones off hand, but there are a number throughout the games) tell you that Pokemon of the same species and level may be different, and their stats and natures at least are not exactly hidden. There is even a guy build into the game (Platinum at least) with the specific function of giving you an indication of the Pokemon's IVs.
However, this is essentially exploiting your knowledge of the RNG. You rely on your knowledge of the RNG, or at least the fact that a RNG exists in your assumption that if you catch multiple Pokemon, they will be different. In a sense, this kind of RNG "abuse" can get you anything you please.
Testing things is part of our humanity and also part of the expectations of the game. We use a grass move on a water type, and it turns out to be super effective, whereas using a fire move is not very effective. No-one is going to complain that using type advantages is cheating here. This is similar to how we worked out the mathematics behind EVs and IVs: we can exploit this information to improve our chances of winning, and the fact that the formulas have been formalised doesn't take away from the fact that the information we use was gained from testing and analysis.
Using the RNG is very similar. Rather than randomly charging forth and trying to catch/SR what you want, we use the data which we have gathered (well, not me obviously, but it was still gathered by people playing the game) in a formalised and usable form to determine what will get us our desired results. While the RNG might not have been explicitly mentioned by the game, some element of randomness was clearly indicated, and rather than try to eliminate it individually, we can use a formula. RNG "abuse" is nothing but a logical extension of strategy.
I consider cheating to be the use of anything not indended to feature in the game. While trial and error and conservative strategy were built in (where RNG exploitation is merely the ultimate iteration), devices such as the Gameshark were not, and glitches obviously were not either. The use and exploitation of them is what I would consider cheating.
However, I believe there are cases where cheating may be acceptable and legitimate tools might be avoided. When the game is effectively complete and all parties involved in an interaction (e.g. a trade of battle) agree to the use of a cheat (most commonly cloning, fast hatch, IV check cheats), the use of said cheat is not an issue. These are time-saving, as opposed to game-breaking, cheats and as such do not qualify the user for having cheated in the completion of the game. Also, if a legitimate tool makes the game less fun, you may want to avoid it (I can't think of any Pokemon examples here, but using the blood sword on the Emperor in FFII comes to mind). In fact, there is a whole (masochistic) subculture with these sort of games which delights in making the game more challenging by ignoring prominant aspects of the game because they simply enjoy it. Nothing wrong with that, but in no way can others be expected to subject themselves to the way other people prefer to play their games.
In essence, I don't believe that using the RNG is cheating, and I believe that cheating may be acceptable where it does not influence the completion of the game and all effected parties agree with the use of the cheat.
Edit: This is a seperate arguement, but also has its place here.
What can be considered cheating in a competitive online environment? Directly modifying the game means that you are changing the odds, but if all partiess are in agreement, than why not? Another issue raised is giving some people unfair advantages over others. In this case, since there are people around who offer cloning and other hacking services, "legitimate hacks" are acceptable, since they are not denied to anyone. One could say that asking for compensation for these services is giving unfair advantage, but it must be considered that the compensation is often nominal and that it seens to be aimed more at repaying time spent than the service itself. Is there a reason then not to allow Pokemon modified as people please for battles? In this case, I believe there is: being able to battle with Pokemon of whatever stats you please changes the game into something else (and something completely stupid imo). Changing the nature of the game with hacks can therefore be considered illegitimate in terms of Pokemon battling, and should never be allowed to be the standard, but of course there is no problem with allowing people to play against each other with hacks if they both agree to it and it is not counted as an official Pokemon battle.
This does, however, raise an intersting arguement about event pokemon/moves. There are a siginicant portion of people who just don't have access to them, period. In this respect, it is my belief that events should be freely available for anyone who wants then in the intest of fairness, or be banned altogether. I doubt this will be a popular position, but it seems logical.
Regards,
Ascalon
For instance, imagine that you want to get yourself a Gyarados. Should you limit yourself to the first one you catch? Of course not! Various NPCs (I can't remember which ones off hand, but there are a number throughout the games) tell you that Pokemon of the same species and level may be different, and their stats and natures at least are not exactly hidden. There is even a guy build into the game (Platinum at least) with the specific function of giving you an indication of the Pokemon's IVs.
However, this is essentially exploiting your knowledge of the RNG. You rely on your knowledge of the RNG, or at least the fact that a RNG exists in your assumption that if you catch multiple Pokemon, they will be different. In a sense, this kind of RNG "abuse" can get you anything you please.
Testing things is part of our humanity and also part of the expectations of the game. We use a grass move on a water type, and it turns out to be super effective, whereas using a fire move is not very effective. No-one is going to complain that using type advantages is cheating here. This is similar to how we worked out the mathematics behind EVs and IVs: we can exploit this information to improve our chances of winning, and the fact that the formulas have been formalised doesn't take away from the fact that the information we use was gained from testing and analysis.
Using the RNG is very similar. Rather than randomly charging forth and trying to catch/SR what you want, we use the data which we have gathered (well, not me obviously, but it was still gathered by people playing the game) in a formalised and usable form to determine what will get us our desired results. While the RNG might not have been explicitly mentioned by the game, some element of randomness was clearly indicated, and rather than try to eliminate it individually, we can use a formula. RNG "abuse" is nothing but a logical extension of strategy.
I consider cheating to be the use of anything not indended to feature in the game. While trial and error and conservative strategy were built in (where RNG exploitation is merely the ultimate iteration), devices such as the Gameshark were not, and glitches obviously were not either. The use and exploitation of them is what I would consider cheating.
However, I believe there are cases where cheating may be acceptable and legitimate tools might be avoided. When the game is effectively complete and all parties involved in an interaction (e.g. a trade of battle) agree to the use of a cheat (most commonly cloning, fast hatch, IV check cheats), the use of said cheat is not an issue. These are time-saving, as opposed to game-breaking, cheats and as such do not qualify the user for having cheated in the completion of the game. Also, if a legitimate tool makes the game less fun, you may want to avoid it (I can't think of any Pokemon examples here, but using the blood sword on the Emperor in FFII comes to mind). In fact, there is a whole (masochistic) subculture with these sort of games which delights in making the game more challenging by ignoring prominant aspects of the game because they simply enjoy it. Nothing wrong with that, but in no way can others be expected to subject themselves to the way other people prefer to play their games.
In essence, I don't believe that using the RNG is cheating, and I believe that cheating may be acceptable where it does not influence the completion of the game and all effected parties agree with the use of the cheat.
Edit: This is a seperate arguement, but also has its place here.
What can be considered cheating in a competitive online environment? Directly modifying the game means that you are changing the odds, but if all partiess are in agreement, than why not? Another issue raised is giving some people unfair advantages over others. In this case, since there are people around who offer cloning and other hacking services, "legitimate hacks" are acceptable, since they are not denied to anyone. One could say that asking for compensation for these services is giving unfair advantage, but it must be considered that the compensation is often nominal and that it seens to be aimed more at repaying time spent than the service itself. Is there a reason then not to allow Pokemon modified as people please for battles? In this case, I believe there is: being able to battle with Pokemon of whatever stats you please changes the game into something else (and something completely stupid imo). Changing the nature of the game with hacks can therefore be considered illegitimate in terms of Pokemon battling, and should never be allowed to be the standard, but of course there is no problem with allowing people to play against each other with hacks if they both agree to it and it is not counted as an official Pokemon battle.
This does, however, raise an intersting arguement about event pokemon/moves. There are a siginicant portion of people who just don't have access to them, period. In this respect, it is my belief that events should be freely available for anyone who wants then in the intest of fairness, or be banned altogether. I doubt this will be a popular position, but it seems logical.
Regards,
Ascalon
One point that I think might be important is that some RNG control techniques (not the common Emerald one, though) involve setting the DS's game clock to incorrect values. My own philosophy about this is that it's more or less valid to do anything to get what you want in the game, unless it's obviously exploiting a do-anything glitch (e.g. tweaking) or lying to the DS (changing the clock to something other than the current time to change in-game events). Quite possibly, some legendary spreads are 'impossible', simply because the seeds that would make them possible have never happened between Pokémon's release and now, although they might some time in the future (although I don't know, there may be other methods to control the seed). So IMO, controlling the seed by counting frames, etc, and other methods that just involve the usual inputs to the game are fine, but messing with the game clock (even to do simple things like grow berries faster) isn't.
heck, ive even changed the game clock to night to catch rotom, because i was too lazy to stay up until 2 in the mourning. If you want to wait until 2066 to catch your flawless, hp grass heatran, be my guest
With enough testing I think these things could surely be known with just game carts, it could be a gruelingly difficult and long process but enough information is provided to find out. I know it hasn't been done that way, and I suppose the difference between this and hacking/PRNGing is possibility. And even in the world with just pokemon carts, I think there's enough people out there who'd want to figure these things out. But if I'm wrong, it doesn't really change anything because...
I'm not arguing on a competitive level. Shoddy's objective is to consider every possible avenue, no matter how improbable. So even if we couldn't know, it's possible that I could catch a flawless timid Heatran and somehow manage to battle Pokemon that resulted in 252 spakt 252 speed 6 hp.
I guess what I was trying to say was that if wifi claims to be competitive, then they should have no problem with AR'd/pokesav'd pokes, and there's no reason to gloat about any PRNG'd pokemon even though they make a nice treat for competitive people who at least like to accomplish things ingame. But from an ingame purist point, the only "legit" pokemon are the ones that aren't PRNG'd, or in the case I'm wrong about both IVs and EVs, the completely random ones!
edit: latios315 - what happens when you divide a number by infinity?
with enough testing the RNG could be cracked too, it might take a million years but it is possible
you get zero, but how is that relevant?
Everything is PRNG'd. Whether you intended to or not, you input something into the formula that gave you a predetermined result. The only pokemon that are not PRNG'd are Pokesav'd.
And my point about Shoddybattle was that it could not exist without someone hacking the game to gather the necessary information to program it.
I just thought of something: Cheating is generally considered to be using aid outside the rules to achieve ends that noone else can. RNG and legal-hacks both only give you the same ends that anyone else could get.
That is: RNG/AR give you nothing that any pokemon player can't get, therefore they can't be cheating; there is literally no advantage, let alone an unfair advantage. Being able to do things faster is convenience, not an advantage, because there is no assessment system for how long it takes you to get something.
That is: RNG/AR give you nothing that any pokemon player can't get, therefore they can't be cheating; there is literally no advantage, let alone an unfair advantage. Being able to do things faster is convenience, not an advantage, because there is no assessment system for how long it takes you to get something.
mattj
blatant Nintendo fanboy
So just to clarify, without the use of PRNG, you would have to wait longer than the batteries in the game would last to catch a hex flawless whatever? How is that any different than just whipping it up with an AR? XD
[edit]
sorry, just to clarify I don't oppose RNGabuse at all. Just curious how it's different if it makes an impossible event possible.
Also, how is changing the game date any different from altering the game data with an AR? Both seem to alter the data in an unrealistic way.
Again, just curious, not opposed.
To me, it's not cheating simply because the RNG is itself not random at all. If you can find a pattern of occurrences within a RNG (when a RNG, in theory, is supposed to give you a random result at all times instead of having an identifiable pattern like in the games), you can't really call that cheating. Granted, it's all information I'm sure Nintendo would rather have us ignorant of, but they can't do shit about it.
WTF
Cheating? Random? It is not cheating at all. If it was, why would they (gamefreak) put stuff like the RNG, IV's, EV's, and Shinyness into a game, they would have to be drunk, high, or just plain stupid (or any combination of the three) to think that there would not be dedicated gamers who would eventually figure out the inner-workings of their games.
And as far as the RNG itself goes, the RNG is not random, just that there are so many data points passing through it in a second that every result (IV breeding for instance) could be different from the next, alluding to the idea that the RNG is indeed random.(in which case it is most definitely not)
Cheating? Random? It is not cheating at all. If it was, why would they (gamefreak) put stuff like the RNG, IV's, EV's, and Shinyness into a game, they would have to be drunk, high, or just plain stupid (or any combination of the three) to think that there would not be dedicated gamers who would eventually figure out the inner-workings of their games.
And as far as the RNG itself goes, the RNG is not random, just that there are so many data points passing through it in a second that every result (IV breeding for instance) could be different from the next, alluding to the idea that the RNG is indeed random.(in which case it is most definitely not)
You know what I mean, every pokemon obtained legally as a result of hacking, that point really doesn't have anything to do with what I said. I just thought that was the common term for abusing the RNG lol.
And mine was that that's ok because pokemon couldn't reach its competitive potential otherwise. And because wifi is competitive too, I see no point in making someone take the time to abuse the RNG if they don't want to. (And I know you agree so why do we argue anyways lol)
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