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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Mekkah, Jul 21, 2012.

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  1. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Yeah, either move Sandslash down or move Geodude up.

    Dugtrio should remain in its position, as it speeds means it can use SE Earthquake before getting hit (not instantly Fire Blasted by Blaine, not confused by Agatha, etc).
  2. neilymon

    neilymon

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    I agree with the premise that Geodude should be ranked above Sandshrew, but I think both belong in the Mid Tier. Here's why:
    1) Both require serious TM support. Geodude learns STAB attacks, but unfortunately Rock Throw is very unreliable and Earthquake comes relatively late (i.e. it needs Dig to maximize its potential). Obviously Sandshrew is even worse as it needs TMs for both of its STAB attacks.
    2) In the role of a Ground type, Diglett outclasses both of them due to its superior Speed. I've previously said that Diglett is a borderline High/Top Tier, because late game it'll die against most things he can't OHKO (due to his poor Def/Spc), but these two are clearly a tier below.
    3) Speaking of late game, both are shaky against the E4. Geodude is slightly worse here, because he struggles against Agatha's status effects (due to his crappy Speed) and is vulnerable to Bruno.

    I realize this is a 180 from my initial post advocating for Sandshrew in the Top Tier, but things are vastly different when you're not using X-Acc + Fissure and get penalized for hogging TMs. I think both of these Pokemon have high ceilings (Slash/STAB Dig, STAB Dig/Rock Slide), but overall I'd put them at the top of the Mid Tier.

    On a related note: I'd like to agree with atsync and others in moving Growlithe to the Mid Tier. Fire type is already poor in-game, and Growlithe isn't even a good Fire STAB since it doesn't get a good Fire move until Blaine (keeping it unevolved until it learns Flamethrower is completely counterproductive). Yeah, it's got a high ceiling if it gets Dig and perhaps Body Slam, but that draws very similar comparisons to Geodude and Sandshrew, doesn't it?
  3. Dre89

    Dre89

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    A lot of these analysises are inconsistent in that they're not based on soloing the game, then mention Gym and E4 match ups as if they're taking on the whole thing by themself.

    Also, peope need to get some perspective when it comes to in-demand TMs. People said the fact that Mr. Mime needs the in-demand psychic TM is a abd thing, but if you have Mr. Mime you won't need another psychic pokemon and thus he is the best candidate for the TM.

    If you're soloing the game, then diglett is probably the best ground after nidoking. If you're using a team of reasonable levelled pokemon, then geodude is the best, because as a team player his defences and resistances come in handy a lot throughout the game. Plus he also has explosion to help in tight situations. He is great in nuzlockes because of this. Geodude is much more of a team player than diglett or sandshrew, so in this scenario he's better.
  4. neilymon

    neilymon

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    You're incorrect about Diglett; Sandshrew is definitely better for a solo run. Please try it out if you don't believe me. Sandshrew is bulky enough to set up Fissure against the E4 much more consistently than Diglett.

    As for the "team player" part, you're right about Explosion - but I thought the point of a Nuzlocke was not to kill off your Pokemon?!? You're all about the Obi-Wan noble sacrifices, aren't you? =P
  5. Dre89

    Dre89

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    The tier list isn't based off nuzlockes though.

    If you're soloing, you're normally so much higher in level that you can just power through pokemon with STAB.
  6. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    TM reliance is always bad even if your Pokémon is the best candidate for the TM. It's probably a less bad thing with Psychic, which isn't that high-demand a TM. But being the best candidate doesn't magically make TM reliance OK, it just means you're passing the burden of not using the TM to your teammates.
  7. neilymon

    neilymon

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    Soloing (without grinding) doesn't typically result in a Pokemon that's overleveled enough to beat the E4, with a couple of exceptions. But that and Nuzlockes are off-topic.

    I believe you're trying to make the point that Geodude is better than Diglett in a team of 4-6 (the conditions for this tier list), but I have to strongly disagree with you. Diglett is much faster than Geodude and virtually always gets his Dig/Earthquake off first. Second, you can catch Dugtrio at Lv31, whereas the highest you can catch Geodude is Lv17.

    Look, I agree with you that if Geodude is your Ground-type, he deserves Dig more than anyone else (I made the same point with Sandshrew). But we've established in this thread that there should be some penalty for a Pokemon that takes this TM away from other Pokemon in your party that would like it ("team player", right?). Having a Rock-type is nice mid-game against certain opponents, but then it becomes a drawback in the E4 because it adds extra weaknesses. Overall, I'd prefer them in this order:
    1) Lv31 Dugtrio with no TMs
    2) Geodude with TM Dig/Earthquake/Rock Slide
    3) Sandshrew with TM Dig/Earthquake

    I suspect most others would agree with that ranking.
  8. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    And Dig is probably the highest-demand TM in the game.
  9. Chou Toshio

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    Keep in mind, Geodude doesn't need EQ-- it gets it at level 36 as golem (which is still pretty early). Of course Geodude is a LOT less good without Dig, but unlike Shrew, its resistances are so good, there are lots of opponents that stand no chance of winning against it even if it were to only use Tackle. lol
  10. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Actually Geodude takes so long to KO something before it gets Mega Punch/a good STAB that it might end up losing even at a type advantage. He can get KO'd by things like Spearow pretty often, due to their high crit probability.
  11. NoUserName

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    Mega Punch is obtained as TM in Mt Moon, so as long you don't spend it in someone else, it's done.
  12. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Looking at Geodude right now, he's looking pretty sweet. Don't forget Geodude's got a great Attack Stat, so his Attack will be slightly higher when you get it anyway

    He gets Explosion and EQ by level-up fairly early (just in time to destroy Koga), and Rock Slide's only really wanted by Nidoking and Primape, but they're not really needed for those two.

    Fun Fact: Golem learns Fire Blast.
  13. Chou Toshio

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    Nidoking would be better off with Ice Beam than Rock Slide though (Assuming you can afford to give it; you'll probably give Blizzard to your water/ice type).

    So Geodude's offensive progression looks like this:

    Tackle -> Mega Punch -> Mega Punch + Rock Throw + Dig -> Rock Slide + EQ + Strength (or Body Slam)

    At no point is it particularly weak, and it benefits throughout the game. It is less efficient than other pokes at beating many enemies, but it can contribute to almost any battle (except Misty, Erika, Loralei, and sort of Sabrina). Stomping through RB Lance is a nice bonus.
  14. neilymon

    neilymon

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    um, his lead Gyarados almost certainly OHKOs you with Hydro Pump, right?
  15. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Yeah, Geodude has no way of beating Gyarados unless Hydro Pump misses every single time.

    I would agree that Geodude/Sandshrew should be mid tier both.
  16. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Yeah, Gyarados is a big deal. It is nice to have strong matchups against Gengar, Aerodactyl, and Dragonite though (in RB).
  17. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    It's not like losing against Gyarados = fails against Lance, Graveler still facerolls the remainder of Lance's RB team due to them packing pretty much nothing but Dragon Rage / Hyper Beam. Besides, Gyara is Lance's lead anyway so you can just kill it off with an electric move, switch to Graveler, win.

    idk about Rock Throw, actually. The accuracy is pretty bad (rofl65) and it's not exactly strong either: Mega Punch outdamages on neutral targets. Still, having a STAB by level is better than no STAB (I'm looking at you, Rhydon) and Graveler is one of the best users of Rock Slide (the only other possible competition is the aforementioned Rhydon, who needs to be fed TMs, including said Rock Slide TM for actual coverage).
  18. Chou Toshio

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    Why would you not be using Golem @.@

    Up until now, the in-game tiers have generally assumed trading anyway.

    Also yes, I meant AFTER Gyarados with Lance... I thought that was self-explanatory.
  19. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Hmmm...should Geodude get a rewrite? I mean its really good, but a bit outdated. For example, "hahahaha... once more, Golem will die instantly." gets the point across but we are trying to make these more professional now. Also, I don't think we need to list stuff like Saffron Rockets for it.
  20. Chou Toshio

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    I was the one who wrote it, but it could definitely use a re-write. I wrote it near the beginning of the exercise; when we still weren't sure where everything would go. People were still writing mostly about the obviously top/high stuff, and Golem seemed pretty mediocore by comparison-- but it should probably get a more positive review.
  21. Garud

    Garud

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    All this talk about Geodude moving up I'm the ranks, I'm think I should reconsider Rhyhorn. I don't think it will change but its worth another look. I'll give it a bit of a second play around on the weekend.

    Oh and by the way, every placing must be considered within the spirit of the game. This means that trade evolutions are always considered because they remain within the spirit of the game. When the games were made, it was expected that you could trade between them.
  22. Longfellow

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    Huh, really? I'd be happy to include the trade evolutions, but I think Kadabra, Graveler, etc. should be tiered as well for players who don't have trade access.
  23. Chou Toshio

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    Don't bother.

    Geodude is only getting re-looked at because we misplaced Sandslash over it (Geodude is better). Geodude is also the earliest Ground-type (outside Nidoking/Queen also attained at Mt. Moon), and is there for every battle they are useful for, and will never have a lot of trouble catching up to the rest of the team.

    Rhyhorn on the other hand, appears late, extremely under-leveled, no STAB moves... it's in an entirely different case from Geodude/Sandshrew. Not being there for Surge is a huge blow, as it's the most important battle for the team's ground type.


    I've always seen the Safari Zone as an area GF designed to support Link Battles; that is, Safari Zone is there to help players in Competitive Pokemon, not winning in-game. Think about it-- this is where you get Chansey, Tauros, Rhydon, Dragonite, and Exeggcutor. In RBY, that's like half of OU right there. lol
  24. atsync

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    Just to clarify about trade evolutions:

    This is fine, but only if you can justify that the trade actually improves the Pokemon enough to boost its placement. I don't think the difference between Kadabra and Alakazam is that important (I'd call both Top tier), and the fact that Yellow Machamp (which gets boosted experience) is in Low tier with Machop suggests that separating Machoke and Machamp isn't worth it either. Dunno about Graveler and Haunter though.
  25. neilymon

    neilymon

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    Yeah I definitely agree with this. Check out Graveler vs. Sandshrew vs. Golem:
    HP / Atk / Def / Spc / Spe
    Graveler: 55/95/115/45/35
    Sandslash: 75/100/110/55/65
    Golem: 80/110/130/55/45

    Those are significant differences, particularly in bulk. I don't see how anyone could say that Graveler is significantly better than Sandslash, but one could make a case for Golem (nb: I am not one of those people).

    On the other hand:
    Haunter: 45/50/45/115/95
    Gengar: 60/65/60/130/110

    Gengar has an elite Spc, second to only Alakazam. However, Haunter's combination of Spc and Speed still match up favorably with Tentacruel and Starmie, and better on both counts than Mr. Mime. All three of those Pokemon are ranked in the High Tier. So while Haunter is clearly inferior to Gengar, you can still slap a bunch of Special TMs on it and expect a very solid performance.
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