All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Blastoise

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. Jellicent

    Jellicent Ambien Trance
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,088
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Venusaur is another consistently UU Pokemon. So, what kept it out of OU for four gens straight, and what were its best sets, roles, counters, etc. throughout history? Remember, its place in both OU and UU is open to discussion~
  2. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    748
    I think venusaur is a solid bl in gsc. Able to go both ways as a physical sweeper and a special sweeper (with special sweeper being the more threatening of the two, obviously). It's definitely overpowered for UU.
  3. BKC

    BKC sorrow flew on black wings
    is a Tutoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,148
    in dpp uu, venusaur can do whatever it wants. this includes [but isn't necessarily limited to] scarf, special offense, mixed, swords dance, physically defensive, specially defensive...yeah. one of the premier bulky water checks, probably the biggest reason why toxic spikes aren't that popular. nearly impossible to safely counter. it was even suspected, but thankfully not banned. easily the best mon in the tier.

    it's also very good in ou. toxic spikes absorption is really useful. it annoys the crap out of everything with sleep powder + leech seed. roar can also be effective if you're willing to give up either a stab or hp fire. i haven't tried the sd set yet but i can imagine it'll rape unsuspecting heatran too bad it loses to skarm really hard but it sounds fun at the very least.
  4. Joim

    Joim This lulling sense of purpose will destroy us rapidly
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administrator
    Programmer

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    1,515
    Gen 1 Venusaur has a niche on being a sleeper faster than Exeggutor being able to take on several threats thanks to high critical Razor Leaf, which OHKOs Golem and Rhydon and easily takes Starmie out. Moreover, its Swords Dance Body Slam hits really hard and can paralyse, so overall a reall useful Gen 1 OU mon. The only problem is facing Gengar as a sleep lead, which needs to rely on 55% accuracy, or Jynx, which is less common anyways.
  5. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    867
    Hey, not to be an ass but:

    1. Hypnosis has 60% accuracy, not 55%
    2. Jynx is about as common as Gengar, if not more
    3. SD/RL/SP/HB > SD/RL/SP/BS. Body Slam just doesn't hit hard enough.

    Unfortuantely for Venusaur in RBY though, Victreebel outclasses it in almost every way. Victreebel can abuse Wrap, paralyze stuff with Stun Spore, and has a higher attack stat.
  6. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,116
    RBY Venu struggles to compete with Vic for the same niche since its speed advantage is negligible whereas Vic gets better Attack and move pool. Venu ain't bad, Vic is just better.

    GSC Venu is a nice off beat gimmick as a special sweeper, although it is still quite mediocre in OU and must choose its hidden power wisely. Also it is kind of shit as a physical sweeper since it gets no STAB, although I guess it could work with hp fire for skarm.

    In both game boy gens, Venus is too good for UU, but has a common, mediocre typing, average stats, and a limited move pool holding it back from OU.
  7. Dre89

    Dre89

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    359
    I thought hypnosis had 65 accuracy?

    Yeah, victreebell competely outclasses it in OU due to having wrap and stun spore, and having better stats in more important areas (ie. attack). Sleep powder stun spore razor leaf wrap is better than anything venusaur can do, because let's face you're not sweeping with venusauf. Even then kingler is a better SDer.

    Venusaur does get browny points though for not being 2HKO'd bu tauros' blizzard-hyper beam.
  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    436
    Eh, it's arguable. Swords Dancers need a free turn, and Venusaur can get one with Sleep Powder.

    Victreebel is still better though.
  9. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,116
    Sleep rarely works that way in rby though.
  10. Dre89

    Dre89

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    359
    Usually something will be slept by then, although I have slept a few tauroses before with victreebell.

    Outside of sleep, kingler is better though. He has better match ups with the normals, and his biggest counters like starmie can be removed with explosion.
  11. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    436
    Rarely, yes. But it can work.

    (I've seen Venusaur and Victreebel as leads before - it's rather annoying if your own lead is Egg.)
  12. Omanyte

    Omanyte

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2011
    Messages:
    49
    Venusaur would be a great pokemon in RBY if it weren't for the poison typing. Sleep powder, Swords Dance and STAB Razor Leaf is nice, but weakness to Psychic and Ice with no useful resistances kills it.
  13. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    748
    Motion for next week's pokemon to be OU from gen 2 instead of non-existent from RBY and forevers.
  14. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,116
    Seconding this motion. Talking about something like Raikou would be a little more interesting.
  15. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Yeah you are pretty much running of RBY Pokemon to talk about, although I'm surprised Charizard was never mentioned.

    As far as Venusaur goes, didn't really come into its own until 4th gen. Great in 4th gen UU, and the fact that today in our current gen hes OU is just awesome.
  16. Jellicent

    Jellicent Ambien Trance
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,088
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Alright, let's give a GSC mon a try. Skarmory here has been OU since its inception, and it's not hard to see why. Great typing, solid bulk, and a great support movepool has made it stand out in every gen. So, what were its best sets, roles, niches, counters, and teammates throughout the ages?
  17. Christopher583

    Christopher583

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2013
    Messages:
    3
    Great stuff on Gengar, guys ^.^[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
  18. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,116
    Firstly, Skarmory's bulk has never been that great. That HP stat is just horrid (ADVers and DPPers MUST invest 252 HP EVs), and its Special Defense is appalling too (Fire Blast from SNORLAX can 2HKO? Seriously?) While its Defense stat is solid, it's kind of shafted by that low HP, and as a result strong Rock Slides and Cross Chops can always break it on the Physical side.

    Skarmory's main claim to defensive fame has always been its typing. No Physical weaknesses, plenty of physical resists and immunities, and even quite a few Special resistances that make strong Special Pokemon like GSC Exeggutor unable to really harm it. Even though its defensive stats are somewhat mediocre, that typing makes everything a million times better.

    In GSC, Skarm can't really do much. It just sits there and doesn't die. It's not sweeping with Curse + Drill Peck, it's not really a great Spikes shuffler since pretty much anything with a Fire, Electric, or Water move will immediately force it out (although it can't really do much else, so if you have Spikes you might as well try), and it barely passes as an effective user of Toxic or Thief, not so much because it's actually good at using those moves but moreso because it really has nothing more offensive that it can do with that moveslot. However, Skarmory's "don't die" role is one of the most prized in GSC because it specifically refuses to die to the biggest threat the tier has to offer: Snorlax. Snorlax must run a Fire move or accept being walled by the metal bird (okay, Lovely Kiss could catch Skarm, too, but it's much easier to force something else to take the LK than to try to waste 8 Fire Blasts). Skarm also walls other top threats such as Exeggutor, Marowak, and Heracross, it matches up well against Machamp, and it can emergency-phaze threats such as Umbreon, so it's hardly a one-trick pony on defense. Skarmory doesn't do much, but the reason why it's good in GSC is because it doesn't let your opponent do much with some of the scariest threats the tier has to offer. It's better than something like Suicune, which is similarly passive but walls lesser threats than Snorlax (at least non-Mixed Snorlax, which is most of them).

    As for ADV, it's one of the top Spikers and Phazers in the tier, the main reason Magneton is used, and overall a solid defensive Pokemon. However, CB'd Rock Slides and Fighting moves (and that aforementioned Magneton) make it less effective as a wall in this gen. Thank goodness it can Spike in ADV (and furthermore that you can set up more than 1 layer in ADV), because otherwise Skarm would have faded into mediocrity along with the loss of the stranglehold Snorlax had on the metagame.
  19. Dre89

    Dre89

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    359
    Using thief to take marowak's thick club would be hilarious.
  20. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Skarmory doesn't really change much. Phase Physical Sweepers, set up hazards, etc.

    I like the Choice Band set in ADV. Hidden Power Ground for Electric/Fire types, Rock Slide for Flying types (including Zapdos and Charizard), Drill Peck and Steel Wing for STAB. The latter can even boost Skarmory's defense, helping him still maintain his role as a Physical Wall.
  21. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    441
    Biggest props to Skarm for actually forcing the meta to run a random fire/electric move. Or stuff like CurseRoarKanga.

    Funny thing DPPt was his best gen: shed shell to avoid trapkills, motherfucking roost for instaheal, less viable spinners, rotom-a as a solid spinblock etc.
    Adv gave him Spikes and 3 layers within at the cost of Magneton. Lax being nerfed didn't help either. 2 steps forward, 2 steps back.
    GSC-wise he was pretty much a wildcard: unable to accomplish anything really, but able to neutralize the best pokemon of the game and a good backup phazer (I mean you sure as hell won't force spikes damage like Raikou).
  22. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    329
    I think skarmory is a dominant pokemon in adv. It is very hard for many sweepers to get through both Skarmory and Zapdos. Skarm making curselax (sans magneton) into a liability until late game is pretty awesome. Skarm just provides a ton for almost any team. I magneton did not exist I think it would be the best poke in the meta.
  23. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    441
    Well he is indeed dominant when you realize magnet pull was created solely for him (well there's forry too, but in a lesser extent), seeing Mence/Flygon running Fire Blast, Thunderpunch/HP Fire Metagross etc. but at the same time 3rd gen gave lots of options to hit skarm on the physical side: good fight moves, tyranitar, aero, choice band and so on.
    Taking a look at the OU mons, only Gyarados and Snorlax are actually hardwalled by him. Oh and there's also Clerics being less viable. In fact, that was probably the biggest downside, considering it's tougher to Rest compared to GSC.
  24. kd24

    kd24 people be stoopid
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,241
    shed shell's awful in dppt, like legitimately the worst thing you could possibly run on skarmory

    aug 2010 is the last recorded dpp usage stat
    29 | Magnezone | 66052 | 6.87

    thats 7% of people using magnezone post mence ban (our current dpp). even assuming magnezone usage doubled in the current meta (which is absurd and pretty much impossible, but let's humor this idea and say at higher levels of play magnezone is more common)

    even if 14% of users were using magnezone, that is 86% that you won't encounter one. thats more than 6/7 battles!

    in dpp skarm NEEDS leftovers. it's not debatable. unless you like losing to heavy pressure from dd gyarados + dd dnite, or losing significant health everytime you switch into SR, or being unable to roost stall (i guess you could argue it can run lum for the lead skarm but that is suuuuuch a waste of skarmory)

    hell, with shed shell skarm doesn't even enjoy switching in on terribly weak shit like flygon's u-turn - you're taking 3% and they get to threaten skarm right back out again with what they bring in. without the leftovers trade netting you 3%, you're just slowly losing health and tempo. it adds up

    if you're that worried about magnezone and your team just falls apart if skarm dies, well first reconstruct your team, but more importantly, don't play into the magnezone
  25. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Edit: I completely misinterpret him, my apologies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

  1. Ambusher86