All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Blastoise

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. Jellicent

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    I always found something aesthetically pleasing about Cloyster as a child...

    Anyway, Cloyster here was OU for 3 gens straight before drifting off into UU in DPP. What roles and niches did Cloyster have throughout the ages, what were its best sets, and what changes in the metagame caused its lapse in DPP?
  2. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
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    Runs in on neutral, physical attacks and causes havoc via Clamp or Spikes. Good spinner in ADV. Explodes when its job is done. SR cripples its usefulness in 4th gen.
  3. Jellicent

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    Cloyster's not a bad anti-lead in DPP, though. It has good physical bulk, sets up Spikes, and can take down most suicide leads with Surf, using Ice Shard to finish off Sash mons. It can also go suicide itself with Explosion, or Rapid Spin to get rid of SR after the suicide lead is dead. It's certainly not the best lead around, but it's not a bad choice if you wanna set up Spikes while screwing over certain other leads.

    Down in UU, it's got some good versatility as both an offensive Spiker/spinner and a bulky utility mon. Skill Link Rock Blast is also pretty cool for breaking through Subs and Sashes, and it's more powerful than Stone Edge :3
  4. Crystal_

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    Cloyster is a natural choice for a spiking fast paced team in both adv and especially in gsc. While it has problems keeping spikes vs Starmie, its dangerous explosion and to a lesser extent, its ability to check a few pokemon such as steelix and marowak early on makes up for that.
    In RBY, being the best snorlax (and tauros) check in the game arguably and learning the always useful and dangerous clamp as well as explosion, backed up by stab blizzard, make Closyer a top threat in rby as well, sitting close or even inside the top ten in both rby and gsc
  5. Jorgen

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    RBY: Clamp. Also walls Snorlax and tanks Tauros like no other.

    GSC: Spikes. Also an offensively useful boom.

    RSE: Spikes without getting Magne-trapped. Also spins and booms.

    DPP: I don't know for sure what caused its lapse. My best guess is that Stealth Rock becomes the new best hazard, so a dedicated Spiker isn't really all that great anymore. Also being weak to SR makes it an iffy spinner.
  6. Jellicent

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    Wow, Dugtrio sprites get uglier as they go on...

    Anyway, Dugtrio has quite a unique history. UU for most of it's existence, it got a shot at OU in ADV (and early DP). What changes to the metagame and Dugtrio caused this sudden spotlight, and what were its best sets and niches throughout the generations?
  7. Zacchaeus

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    Without Arena trap, Dugtrio really doesn't have a viable niche. It's easily the fastest Ground-type, (tied with Arceus-Ground,) beating 2nd place Garchomp by 18 Speed. This gives it one of the fastest Stealth Rocks in the game. However, it has miserable HP and defenses which have always held it back. It's one of the few Pokémon to have Tri Attack, but is probably the worst user of said move. Gen 5 finally gave it a boosting move which made everybody wonder again how it can use Slash, or in this case, Hone Claws. Once it got Arena Trap, it found a niche, but it can still be replaced without too much difficulty in many circumstances
  8. Jorgen

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    RBY - It has a niche as a fast crit-happy physical attacker that is immune to Twave. It's really frail and not that great, but it's usable. Also without OHKO ban its high Speed lets it try Fissure spam, which is nasty.

    GSC - lolgarbage.

    RSE - Actually useful because Arena Trap and CB make it the ultimate revenge killer.

    DPP - I'm guessing the lack of dominance by most of its prime targets from ADV (Raikou, Celebi, Heracross) makes it less useful, and the more attack-happy nature of the metagame gives it a harder time when it comes to switching in. Also, the advent of actually useable priority makes its life difficult. It's still pretty nifty for revenging a ScarfTar (which it outspeeds) or a Heatran, though.
  9. Crystal_

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    There is not much else to say about Dugtrio, so I will try to approach it in a different direction in this post just for fun: What if Dugtrio had Arena Trap in gens 1 and 2?

    RBY:
    Dugtrio could use it's excelent speed and crit rate backed up by a strong STAB EQ to trap and potentially kill a lot of things. Dugtrio could switch into a thunderwave or thunderbolt from a below 75% chansey and 2hko it, surviving one Ice beam at full health. Chansey could try spamming Softboiled, but that will probably result on a winning crit from dugtrio (or a fp from a para'd chansey). Dugtrio generally 2hkoes Alakazam, but zam ties in speed with dugtrio so it would be safer to para it first. Being potentially able to take out special walls will definitely make spc sweepers such as starmie and lapras more dangerous and effective, and will contribute to a faster meta in general (also the fact that dugtrio kills but also tends to die fast).
    Dugtrio is really close to 2hkoing Golem and Rhydon (or ohko with a crit), although it can only take one eq in return. If you get Dugtrio into a rock-type without taking damage, you will generally at least ensure that zapdos or jolteon can ko it in one hit. This, and the fact that Dugtrio could easily trap Jolteon (so zapdos loses competition for the electric-type and also a minor check) would very likely make zapdos more common.
    Lastly, with Arena Trap Dugtrio would also be the premier revenge killer. Due to its high speed and decently powered eq, duggy would be able to finish off most 25-30% things, including the always dangerous taruos and other weakened mons.

    GSC:

    Dugtrio would probably get more specific uses in gen2; it'd be more similar to ADV in this sense. The first mon that comes to mind is Raikou. Duggy is 10 points faster than kou, and can 2hko with earthquake. If raikou doesn't talk, just forget about surviving if you've just rested. If kou talks, it would have to hit 2/2 hidden powers, and that's assuming you attack the turn dug comes in. Even if raikou's not sleeping, a healthy duggy would win as long as it doesn't switch into hp. Taking out raikou will open up a lot of stuff, such as zapdos, gengar, misdreavus, jolteon, vaporeon, exeggutor... so it makes for a faster meta obviously.
    Apart from raikou there are other eq-weak things that would be susceptible to being trapped by dugtrio, probably becoming more unreliable: Gengar, Nidkoing, Jolteon and Tyranitar are examples, although all can 2hko dugtrio (and duggy falls to 2hko ttar). Dugtrio could also prevent Missy from getting away with perishtrap.
    While Arena Trap Dugtrio seemed to be useful for chanseys in rby, in gsc it doesn't do as much to blissey in gsc. EQ hardly 3hkoes Bliss, although Dugtrio could always try Beat up I guess. Or maybe dugtrio could also get away with a curse set against blisseys not using ice beam?
    GSC gives Dugtrio the option to run Hidden Power, so it'd probably choose Bug to ko weakened Exeggutors (does 50-59%). There is also the option of hp flying for heracross while sorta covering eggs with sludge bomb, but i'm sure hpbug would prevail as the most common choice.
    And lastly, duggy would aslo be useful for revenge killing very low health mons in general, it'd be especially useful for things that can rest (or recover) later on such as snorlax, starmie, vap, very weakened suicune/miltank etc.

    So in short, arena trap dugtrio would make for a faster meta in both rby and gsc as everybody was expecting already before reading this!
  10. Jorgen

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    Arena Trap Duggy in GSC would be fantastic. However, it wouldn't be good for trapping Jolteon since they always BP anyway.

    As of now the best thing Duggy has going for it in GSC is Screech. With that Speed and STAB EQ it might be able to do something with Spikes down. But not really. It's way too frail and is pretty weak, even after a Screech.
  11. Crystal_

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    Yeah, ignore Jolteon.
  12. meteor64

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    Adv is by far Dugtrios best gen. It faces absolutely no competition in its role as a revenge killer and a whole lot of OU is at risk from it- it actually has half of the tier under its dominion. It's more than often a teams only answer to threats such as Heracross and Raikou since these pokemon are notoriously difficult to stop without dedicated walls. Additionally, with a complete lack of Scarf or priority in Adv, Duggy can quite happily give itself the power it so loves from Choice Band to aid its revenging capabilities, and with the lack of the physical/special split it can run Hidden Power to deal with whatever it feels- by far the most common option is Bug, since it still deals ~70% to the most defensive of Celebi, making it another victim to Dugtrios selective wrath. Dugtrio also checks monoattacking Zapdos, a very common sight in Adv, though Dugtrio is vulnerable to the spikes that Zapdos will always be paired with.

    Not only that, but it forms a part of the well known Aero+Duggy and Magtrio combos, both of which fill different niches within teams- whilst Aero+Duggy works on being a one time answer to removing a threat of your choice, Magtrio is an incredibly potent duo of threat removers, which between them are capable of removing pretty much any wall with the game (depending on Magnetons set).

    Dugtrios main weak points are, of course, Choice Band locking it into moves, forcing it to switch out once it kills something, and the fact that it can't take any hits other than Rock Slide, Neutral unSTAB special attacks, and Blissey Ice Beam-even then, all of them leave Dugtrio severely wounded and consequently compound his ability to come in on Spikes again, another weakness. However, rarely should Dugtrio have to worry about these problems as he should only be coming it to hit and run.

    Dugtrios presence and utility within Adv is very strong- almost dominating- and many a time people have built teams that would otherwise be great, but have a huge weakness to one thing and one thing alone- Dugtrio. By far the best crutch for a Dugtrio weak team is Porygon2- with its very good bulk and Trace, P2 can easily come in and revenge the revenge killer with Ice Beam in an ironic twist, whilst also filling a role in the team by checking threats like Salamence, Gyarados, Flygon, and Vaporeon, whilst being an all round pest. Alternatively, one can build their team in a way so that it is only weak to the weaker of Dugtrios moves (using Heracross and Celebi) and then making use of Sharpen Porygon2, who can set up on Hidden Power Bug/Aerial Ace all day, not even being 2HKOed by consecutive crits, and then becoming a downright menace, ravaging teams with +6 STAB Returns and great bulk that is near impossible to OHKO. Essentially, if you need a way to stop Dugtrio from dismantling your team bit by bit, look no further- Porygon2 is the one and only way to reliably stop him dead,, limiting the damage it does to your team, and is one of the main reasons its usage has shot up in recent times.

    So yeah. Adv Dug. Went off for a bit on P2 because it is about the closest thing to a counter this thing has and really deserves more recognition for it.
  13. Jellicent

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    After spending RBY in UU, Vaporeon managed to find its place in the limelight; for the next 3 generations, it had a firm spot in OU. How did Vaporeon best function in each generation, what were it's best roles, niches, and sets, and how did it manage to adapt to changing metagames?
  14. Borat

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    Fuck yeah. Let's do this. Will edit/post again when I finish my impossible algorithm proof.
  15. Captain Evil

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    Vaporeon wasn't bad in RBY, it was just outclassed by the likes of Starmie and Lapras. It could very much hold its own, but there were even better options available.

    Also, pink blob.
  16. Jorgen

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    RBY Vap was bad. Haze was its selling point and even then at best it forced a stall war with the not-too-common Slowbro and at worst it undoes a freeze.

    GSC Vap Borat will tell you all about eventually. To be succinct: at first it was bad, then it got Growth, but people still thought it was bad until people were shown the light regarding how deadly GrowthVap truly was. It's truly a top threat. That being said, it can still be shut down pretty easily by the right things, doesn't synergize too well with the rest of an offense, and requires a good bit of support to realize its potential.

    RSE Vap gets Wish. It's nothing special, but if you want Wish support and have yet to tack on a bulky water, well, it's got its niche.

    Honestly DPP Vap is pretty much the same as RSE Vap. If you want Wish support and don't have a bulky water yet, tack on Vap.

    GSC Vap is best. It's got defensive tanking utility, and thanks to Growth it can also set up a sweep and force plays. Otherwise it's a mostly inferior bulky water that gets Wish to differentiate itself somewhat, or in RBY's case it's total garbage.
  17. meteor64

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    Adv Vap is probably to most underrated of the bulky waters. Its one of 3 OU pokes that provide Wish Support (not counting Jolteon), and isn't 2HKOed by a fair few important special attacks-eg, Gengar Tbolt (just), Regice Tbolt, Starmie Tbolt, unboosted HP Grass from Celebi- and also can completely stop mono-attacking Cune (and most other variants), however, on the physical side, it suffers in being unable to reliably check banded dragons like Pert and Cune (Milo can check Mence but not Flygon), and Tyranitar also gives it problems if its a DDer or banded or physical sub. That said, Vap is still very good, Wish support is valuable and it also gets Baton Pass and options to go with it, as well as (p)hazing options and a heavier base Sp.Atk to work with (doesn't matter too much overall but I guess it helps not having to invest). It's pretty much the bulky water to turn to if you need some secondary role filling that the others can't, but it's honestly not bad at all, for the most part it can do what it needs to do just as well.
  18. Chou Toshio

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    Funny, I only found Cloyster aesthetically pleasing after puberty.
  19. MikeDecIsHere

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    RBY - Vaporeon is really pretty awful. As others have said, the only noteworthy thing is it has Haze, but other Water-types outclass it by far.

    GSC - Yeah, GSC is probably where Vaporeon shines as an offensive Pokemon. Vaporeon is one of the Pokemon with access to Growth, which is the only Special Boosting move in the game. Combined with a decent Special Stat, Vappy hits pretty hard, making it something people need to watch out for. Still needs a lot of help setting up a sweep.

    RSE - It got Wish, which legitimized its role as a bulky water. That's about it.

    DPP - Exact Same Vaporeon
  20. Slobroking

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    RSE - One thing it has over the other Water types is that it needs very little EV investment to always OHKO Aerodactyl with Surf, only 60 EVs, with a neutral Nature. In comparison, Milotic needs 140 EVs, Suicune needs 220 EVs, and Swampert needs a positive nature to even reach that mark. Pretty nice as Aerodactyl is very common. Otherwise stick to the other Waters.
  21. Crystal_

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    RBY UU

    Vaporeon is very interesting here and one of the best Pokemon. It's the go-to bulky water in UU since other common waters (Poliwrath, Golduck, Kingler) won't like to switch into damaging moves that could compromise their sweeping capabilities. It's useful against stuff like Tangela, Graveler, Sandslash, Venomoth and the odd fire-types. Vaporeon has probably the best stats of all UUs, and it can sometimes even go toe to toe against Electabuzz.

    Its biggest drawback is definitely that the 3 top set-up sweepers in rby are water-types and vap can't hit them hard, and sometimes could be a bit of set-up bait against them. Nonetheless, Vap can use its [weak] Body Slams and fish for paralysis or maybe force Golduck or Amnesia Poliwrath to rest eventually (vap is probably being worn down faster than them though, but in a pinch vap is still able to rack up some important damage), while having acccess to Haze to remove stat boosts in a pinch. The problem with Haze is, however, that if your opponent switches to a statused Pokemon, Haze will cure it (but that'd still mean you have removed the foe's boosts!). Against Kingler, Vap can still hit it decently hard with Surf (4HKO), but Kingler is faster and can 2HKO after a Swords Dance.
  22. sandshrewz

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    GSC
    Don't play GSC but from seeing MarceloDK play Vaporeon, it seems like a pretty potent Baton Pass user / sweeper with Growth and Acid Amor o.o It's quite bulky to take a few hits and just Surf too.

    DPP
    A pretty good bulky Water-type in DPP. It can take both physical and special hits reasonably well. Even LO Starmie sometimes have trouble KOing Vaporeon with Thunderbolt as it can stall with Wish + Protect, as long as sandstorm doesn't negate Leftovers so that it does not have a net loss in HP. It was a pretty good mix-ish wall that walls mixed attackers, especially the common Infernape. It stalls pretty well with Toxic and WishTect. Not only that, it can Heal Bell and Roar to support the team further. I personally prefer Heal Bell because =.= status. Vaporeon hates status, especially poison / burn because they hamper its stall capabilities quite a lot. Roar is good if you need a phazer and Vaporeon can heal itself with Wish to Roar another day after tanking a boosted hit or something.

    When I first started DPP, Vaporeon was super annoying to take down .-. Roar also means setting up on it is hard too :< And that base 110 SpA lets Surf hit somewhat hard, especially against frailer Pokemon. Bulky Ground-types eg Hippowdon, Swampert also do not enjoy getting Toxic'd. The former just switch out in case of Surf anyway, and that's a free opportunity to Toxic or Roar something. Vaproeon is a huge menace with plenty of entry hazard support. It works well with stuff like Forretress.

    Vaporeon is also a good bulky Baton Passer on full Baton Pass chains. Its Substitute is HUGE and it can pass Acid Amor, making it a really good tankish Baton Pass user. Choice Specs is really rare, but it's easy to tell its one when it doesn't have Leftovers. Leaving Skarmory or something against a Specs Vaporeon is definitely a bad idea lol. It doesn't really have good coverage but it can catch some people off guard sometimes. It can also afford to sponge a few hits and then KO back.

    Overall, a very annoying Pokemon to face in DPP.

    edit: also u_u Chou lol
  23. Jellicent

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    Borat, please still discuss Vaporeon at some point. Moving this on to the next week~

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    OU for two generations, Rhydon slipped to BL in ADV. By DPP, he was outclassed by his new evolution, and even that was doomed to UU. What changes to the metagame brought about this past titan's fall, and what were his best sets and roles throughout the generations?
  24. Captain Evil

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    Rock/Ground might not be a good defensive typing today, but it was very good in RBY. Immunity to Electric attacks meant it got a lot of opportunities to switch in and force switches. The immunity to Thunder Wave, the most reliable paralyzing move, was also very useful. The Normal resistance combined with RBY's Normal-heavy metagame and a pretty damn high Defense made Rhydon practically untouchable by Electrics. Of course, anything with a Grass or Water move would kill the beast, but Rhydon was never meant to fight those things anyway.

    On the offensive, STAB Earthquake coming off a very good Attack stat was dangerous then as it is today. Coupled with Body Slam, it covered everything but Aerodactyl for neutral damage. Rock Slide was also an option, but very situational as Body Slam or Earthquake were usually better choices.
  25. Jorgen

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    RBY Rhydon is a beast. Its typing lets it tank Zapdos and switch into Snorlax better than most, and its Earthquake is backed by STAB and its massive Attack. However, it gets a lot of competition from Golem as a Rock/Ground attacker. Golem has the advantages of Explosion and a slightly higher Speed stat that lets it win the head-to-head. However, Rhydon's Attack is much higher and, among other things, guarantees that it 2HKOs Chansey and almost guarantees a 3HKO on Snorlax with its Earthquake, something Golem definitely cannot do. It also has a chance to 2HKO a full-health Starmie and hits much harder with Rock Slide against Exeggutor, the #1 Rock/Ground check. Still, Golem is often preferred because, while Rock/Ground is a decent defensive typing against a few crucial things, most of the time the Rocks are taking heavy damage from the ubiquitous Psychic- and Ice-type moves. This means they only have 1 turn to make an impact most of the time, and while Golem has a weaker Earthquake, he has the advantage of Explosion to take out walls even when it can't take any more hits, whereas Rhydon has to rely on Earthquake all the time.

    In GSC Rhydon isn't as good as it once was. The ubanning of Hidden Power Electrics made sure of that. Its vulnerability to status and tendency to get worn down easily by Spikes due to constantly running away from Special Attackers also cuts down on its usability. Regardless, it's still a top-notch Snorlax switch-in who, unlike more passive things like Steelix, Miltank, and Skarmory, actually has a chance to do some damage. Suicune and Exeggutor are a couple of its biggest nemeses, but it can always run a mixed attacking set that paralyzes the former and HP Bugs the latter to death. GrowlTank and CharmBreon also give it issues, but SubDon can get around those guys pretty easily. And of course, there's the classic Curse + Roar Rhydon to avoid Skarm's Phaze and roar away a Curse Snorlax looking to stall it out or kill it with EQ in a Curse war. Rhydon has its downsides, but it gets opportunities to switch in and definitely has the offensive versatility and raw power to be a top threat that every team must prepare for.

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