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All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Charizard

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Holed up in UU from RBY to ADV, Victreebel fell to NU in DPP and never climbed back out. That's not to say it never had niches, from utilizing Wrap in RBY to acting as a Chlorophyll sweeper in later gens. It was even known to make a splash in Ubers. So, what kept this Pokemon locked up in the lower tiers, and what were its best sets, roles, teammates, and counters throughout the gens? Anything about this ugly mess in any tier or gen is up for discussion this week!

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  2. Bedschibaer

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    RBY Victreebell is definitely one of the best non-OU pokes. It has great offensive stats to pull off the role of a mixed sweeper and it actually has a decent movepool for it: 2 boosting moves in Swords Dance and the inferior Growth, an autocrit move in Razor Leaf (since that is the best special stab move Growth isn't really a good idea to run), Double Powder, physical moves in Body Slam, Double-Edge or Hyper Beam and Wrap. With that arsenal of moves it can run different sets and is therfore not as easily to predict as most other mons. It does have a couple of notable flaws, mostly it's mediocre defense and more importantly speed and an inferior typing to its OU grass brother Exeggutor. Being unable to switch into Earthquakes and tanking alot less hits than Eggy in general does give it alot less usability, so it is only really effective as a late-game mon that desperately needs paralysis support to work properly.

    GSC Victreebell is pretty much the same mon, mixed sweeper with notable flaws, only that it got a couple of nerfs, namely the Hyper Beam nerf. Giga drain is the new preferred stab move, which also gets supported by Growth. Sludge Bomb is a new physical stab that benefits alot on Swords Dance sets. The predominance of Steel types hurts it alot, since only a Hidden Power as coverage can severly threaten them (unboosted hp fire is only a 3hko on Skarmory, while Drill Peck is a guaranteed 2hko back). As a mixed sweeper it is outclassed by Nidoking and similar, as a physical booster it is outclassed by most curse users, as a special booster it is outclassed by Growth eeveelutions. Generally i think Victreebell is quite an underperformer in GSC OU and i usually end up using somthing "safer" that can actually live hits while setting up, but it is an unexpected mon that can on paper do alot work when used right, i saw ViL using it with good success a couple of times.
    Piexplode likes this.
  3. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    When Wrap is legal, Vic's main RBY set is Wrap/Sleep Powder/Razor Leaf/Stun Spore. You probably don't want to replace Stun with Hyper Beam/Swords Dance, especially as Stun Spore lets you A) Wrap things you otherwise wouldn't be able to, and B) punish Gengar even after you use Sleep. Victreebel is much scarier than Exeggutor because of its Wrapping ability, but it's also a lot squishier. Victreebel and Egg thus play very differently, but will be compared because of their similar roles as Grass-types and Sleep inducers. Egg is just way more reliable, hence why Victreebel isn't used that often.

    When Wrap isn't legal, Victreebel goes from good gimmick to just gimmick. It takes on the role of Swords Dance (SD) sweeper, with a set like Hyper Beam/Swords Dance/Razor Leaf/Sleep Powder. The idea is to bring it in late-game, use that late Sleep Powder if they sac'd their original sleeping mon to get a turn of free setup, then Hyper Beam everything except the Rocks, which get Razor Leaf'd. Even if everything doesn't go according to plan, you're likely to severely cripple their Tauros with Razor Leaf. The problem is that as far as late-game mons are concerned, you already have and want to be using Tauros, and probably don't want another mon like it to make the middle game effectively 4-on-5. This is why the Wrap set is preferred when it's legal: it lets Vic do something in the mid-game.

    Victreebel is often compared to Venusaur in the SD role. It's popular to consider Victreebel the strictly better Grass SD user, given its higher Attack stat, but Venusaur might actually be useful in the mid-game with its superior Speed (useful for guaranteeing outspeeding Cloysters) and physical bulk (makes fighting Snorlax much easier). For this reason, I'd suggest Hyper Beam for Victreebel, but Body Slam for Venusaur (or perhaps Double-Edge for the +2 2HKO on Chansey, although the recoil and lack of paralysis chance probably aren't worth it), as the former is a cleaner, whereas the latter is better for midgame pressure.

    In GSC, it's basically garbage in OU. It's kinda like a slow, super-frail Tentacruel that can can only hit Skarmory on the switch and is weak to un-dodgeable Hidden Powers from Electrics, but on the flip side, can put things to sleep for free setup. Recommended set is Sludge Bomb/HP Fire/Swords Dance/Sleep Powder. Its main problem is that it's basically made of glass. If it could tank any sort of hit, it might be useful, but it can't, so it's not. It can be pretty effective in UU, although it's still mega-frail and pretty slow for what it wants to do. Nidoqueen is also a top 3 mon and really effective at shutting it down. If you want a glass cannon in UU, Dodrio is a better bet. If you want a Swords Dancer, Pinsir is better with its superior Speed and near-OHKO on Slowbro at +2.
  4. MoxieInfinite

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    victreebel: niche in rby, thrash in the rest
    george182 likes this.
  5. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    RBY Victreebel is BL, and a hair's breadth from actual OU with Wrap legal. (Useful) Grass STAB in Razor Leaf is tremendously rare and OHKOs the Rocks while also 2HKOing all the Waters (including Slowbro, because it penetrates Amnesia!), which keeps an awful lot of things out of its face; it's also just a really powerful attack, comparable to Cloyster's STAB Blizzard. On the offense it's a monster, with Stun Spore + Wrap making most counters invalid or risky, and sleep as well - it can even surprise an opponent by pulling out Swords Dance + Hyper Beam (Victreebel's got a high enough Attack stat to threaten an OHKO on Chansey after Swords Dance). Gengar walls it fairly well, as it's immune to Wrap and Victreebel's other Normal moves while resisting Razor Leaf; that said, Gengar really doesn't like paralysis and needs either Night Shade or the rare Psychic to actually kill Victreebel without Exploding (resisted STAB Razor Leaf outpaces resisted Thunderbolt and 4x-resisted Mega Drain to the kill). Everything else is scared.

    The problem is defense. Victreebel is weak to Psychic and Ice, the two most common special attack types in RBY OU, and is 2HKOed by all STAB Psychics and even some non-STAB Blizzards. It also has a fairly bad Defense stat, making it quite squishy on that side as well despite its lack of major physical weaknesses. It doesn't even have many useful resistances; its Water resistance only really helps against Slowbro (other Waters tend to use Blizzard over their STAB Surf), and its Electric resistance doesn't really avail it against the Electrics as Zapdos 2HKOs with STAB Drill Peck and Jolteon averages about a 3HKO with Pin Missile (Poison is weak to Bug in RBY, so it's 4x super-effective). Its immunity to poison hardly matters in RBY, and paralysis absolutely cripples it; it also has no way of recovering health. It's basically a glass cannon, with few safe switch-ins; if double-switched or Wrap-switched in against something it counters, or brought in on a Resting Water, though, it's a terror.
  6. Dre89

    Dre89

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    Victreebel is easily OU in RBY with wrap legal. The doublepowder razorleaf wrap set is too good to just be considered a gimmick. It probably would have been considered a staple OU along with the likes of alakzam and starmie had the community always accepted wrap. Without wrap though it is just a gimmick but I'd still say it's clearly superior to venusaur. Venusaur's speed only matters against cloyster and dragonite, who are only ever used with wrap legal. If wrap is legal then you should be using victreebel for wrap anyway.
  7. magic9mushroom

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    Venusaur's speed doesn't matter against Dragonite if Sleep Clause is on, because Venusaur doesn't learn Stun Spore and Dragonite 4x resists Razor Leaf.

    Victreebel's not just a gimmick, but neither is it anywhere near good enough to be a staple. Weakness to Blizzard and Psychic is just too crippling, and there are too many things that crush it (Alakazam, Zapdos, Gengar all defeat it 100%; almost everything that isn't Lapras, Cloyster, Slowbro, or a Rock has a favourable matchup). Wrap-switches can't be relied upon to get it in because the opponent can switch as well.

    Then again, it's probably on par with Persian, and Persian's considered OU for some reason. Persian/Jolteon/Articuno/Victreebel are probably around the same level.
    Piexplode likes this.
  8. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    UU for GSC and ADV, and NU during DPP, Politoed became the face of a generation in BW when it gained Drizzle. So, what niches did this Pokemon best fill, either in higher or lower tiers, and what were its greatest sets and roles throughout the gens? Everything about this froggy is up for discussion this week~

    [​IMG]
  9. Crestfall

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    Nice new title Jellicent n_n

    Anyways as you already mentioned it was the mighty boon of Drizzle that had this now famous froggy start to see the light of day and run amok in OU. Weather was generally a gimmick up until this point (see - Sunny Day moltres/doom in GSC or Sandstorm lol), but with a method to invoke the roaring waters, blazing sunlight, and rough sand it jumped from obscurity to top usage. Even better was his ability to stand toe to toe with the other starters (ttar/9tales).

    However as quickly as it rose, did ruleset limitations come into place. DrizzleSwim was considered too strong (as it was) and was subseqently banned.

    However this was only a minor setback - keldeo, a new addition, became a monster. With blistering speeds outdoing 95% of relevant OU and SpA at a respectable amount this little pony ran amok. Fighting water coverage, life orb, and rain boosted hydro pumps are something no one wanted to take unless youre a Jellicent hehe. Icy wind was there for nore utility options and helping to stop dragons!

    Hell enough avout Keldeo, permarain did much more than just help him - our dear friend Ferrothorn now essentially lost a 4x weakness down to 2x thanks to fire being dampened. Ferro was able to switch into so many attacks with impunity and proceeded to litter your ass with hazards or leech stall for days.

    But more than this, weather (in this case rain from poli) brought the "rise" of anti meta teams. Running a kingdra of your own to handle rain teams isnt the craziest thing around.

    Now for the toed himself - respectable bulk let him throw around boosted scaldsand burn away. Protect for scouting and status stall. Toxic is toxic. Perish song to force switches to scare off incoming boosters. Mono water typing is strong and while not the gen4 lord, scizor was still around and poli could come into those locked BPs. More of a general overview im sure an experienced player will come in and talk about the origins of certain sets and spreads and their evolution over time.

    E: I'm sure I missed a lot, but I just threw out what came to mind in terms of new threats because of poli, and not so much about him, hope it's relevant enough!
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  10. MoxieInfinite

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    gsc: legend has it, lk drum politoed does work in uu. calling Xeze to confirm this.
    adv: probably trash.
    dpp: probably trash.
    bw(2): metagame defining, supports half the metagame with rain(though not everyone necessarily takes advantage of it).
    xy: rain still works a bit, youve got those politoed/kabutops/kingdra/latias/chomp/filler teams that are surprisingly gay(another word for it works).


    edit: forgot xy doesnt exist here.
  11. Cowboy Dan

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    In adv it can act as a somewhat ok suicune counter with water absorb and perish song, all it can do is force cune out though unless it's last poke, and perish song doesn't exactly have a ton of PP, so it even kind of fails at that without another way to wear cune down. It's got some kind of cool move pool options like hypnosis but it's not really that useful. Just kind of a worse version of milotic or vaporeon. Not too sure about its effectiveness in uu.
  12. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Spooky Dawg
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    Yeah. In adv, perish song and belly drum are what seperate it from other bulky waters. If one wants to use politoad, they should run perish song so that they wouldnt be totally outclassed by vaporeon/milotic. Belly toad seems interesting since it has earthquake,brick break, hypnosis,return,hp bug and a couple other moves but with that low speed, and no physical stab its not sweeping much unless it manages to activate a salac berry or get an agility passed to it. Belly Zard can pull off a sweep much better than politoad ever will but it does have hypnosis to distinguish itself from zard. Belly Toad seems extremely difficult to pull off though. Not really worth using when there are many less risky options to choose from.
  13. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    In GSC I've never seen Politoed in OU. I suspect Poliwrath is better in UU (which nobody plays) due to having more Attack and a physical STAB (even if it is just Hidden Power Fighting). Somebody care to back me up or shoot me down on that?
  14. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Politoed obviously would've continued to roll around in obscurity for BW had it not been for Drizzle. That's not to say that Politoed itself was just dead weight, though. It was actually a pretty nifty choice from Game Freak for an auto-rain inducer.

    Offensively, Politoed could do some surprisingly serious damage; base 90 SpA might not look like much, but a Specs- and rain-boosted STAB Hydro Pump could certainly pack a punch. While a lot of Water-types are limited to Ice Beam and Hidden Power for coverage, Politoed was blessed with Focus Blast and Psychic. Base 70 Speed is also just fast enough to take advantage of a Scarf set if necessary.

    On the support side, Politoed gained arguably the best new move of BW: Scald. Toxic and Hypnosis are other solid options for spreading status, the latter being rare among Water-types. 90 / 75 / 100 defenses aren't amazing, but Politoed's still bulky enough to make good use of support moves. Encore and Perish Song are snazzy moves that Politoed uses well, and most Water-types miss out on them.

    As odd of a pick as it may have seemed, Politoed actually works very well as a Drizzle user. Its stats and unique movepool make it versatile enough to fill several niches for your rain team, yet they aren't enough to make it overpowered in the metagame. From a balancing perspective, it's definitely a cool pick by GF ^.^
  15. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite

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    unlike ninetales who sucks ass
    iirc, specs poli 2hkoes 252/4 blissey after stealth rocks. either that or 4/252. idk.
  16. Lord Ninjax

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    Yeah, here's my two cents: Drizzle made Politoed worthwhile. Until then it was awful, stats were mediocre at best, and usually it was fulfilling niche roles in the lower tiers: (Belly Drum in GSC, Bulky Water in ADV lower tiers, Both sets in DPP NU). Drizzle made it worthwhile, though when it got it we realised it had enough power, bulk, a good enough move pool, but as most if not all rain teams suggest, Politoed is not powerful or bulky enough to be the star of the show. That said though, it has great offensive and defensive options available, meaning it can slot into any team, but Drizzle takes it from being mediocre to a meta definer
  17. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Politoed can use Belly Drum in GSC. It gets to use Lovely Kiss on top of that thanks to NYPC (although it'd get Hypnosis anyway), meaning it can actually be kind of dangerous if you take it lightly. It has to compete with Poliwrath, though. Poliwrath gets a Rock resist and better Defense to make switching in/setting up on Ttar and Grounds easier. Poliwrath also hits 999 at +6, although Toed hits 952, so it really isn't that big a deal. Toed, on the other hand, isn't weak to Flying, can tank a hit from Exeggutor/Starmie, and has a much stronger Hydro Pump. Personally, I think Politoed's better. Both are ultimately gimmicks, though, mostly due to the lack of a good Physical STAB.

    Politoed can also use the Whirlpool+Sleep+Perish Song strategy that aims to circumvent the ol' Sleep Perish Trap ban with a merely temporary trapping move. Lapras is more famous for this sort of set, but Politoed's lack of Rock/Fighting weaknesses, superior Speed, and more accurate Sleep move again make it better than the more famous user of the gimmick, in my opinion.

    Politoed also gets Growth from NYPC, which is kind of bad in OU because Vaporeon outclasses it in every way except for access to Hypnosis (LK is illegal with Growth, what with them being different event moves), which really isn't a good reason to use Politoed over Vaporeon. Even in UU, where you'd think it'd stomp things because it's basically Vaporeon Lite, the Growth set doesn't get too many chances to sweep, although it still can, hence allowing for some reason to use it over Blastoise. Most of the time, though, I found GrowthToed to be just a mediocre Sleep Talk tank.
  18. MoxieInfinite

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    Jorgen

    if lk wasnt incompatible with growth, do you think it coulda made an impact in standard play?
  19. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Not really. Vap is still better. LK mostly helps you get Snorlax out of your face, which Vaporeon already does with Acid Armor or even a Hydro Pump 3HKO at +1.
  20. McMeghan

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    Just going back on Victreebel a little bit.

    I won't mention what it can do in RBY/GSC as some tier specialists already discussed its usage there, but I'd like to say that Victreebel was actually a pretty good Pokemon in BW.

    It was a solid Sun abuser and it was the best user of the Ice/Fire/Grass coverage available for these kind of teams (with Weather Ball/HP Ice/Solar Beam). That's basically the reason you'd use it over Venusaur back then. I remember Lavos using it vs BKC in the final of a World Cup game, showing it was worth running in a competitive environnement. The Fire/Grass/Ice coverage was really tough to keep in check for the bulky sand which were dominating the metagame at various points of it (Heatran could but Dugtrio was in so much Sun teams anyway).

    As for Politoed, it's basically trash in ADV (at least in OU) and pretty good in DPP NU as a glue. Everybody knows how much it influenced OU in BW.
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  21. Xeze

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    I can agree on that, Drum Politoed does work in UU with the right support (paralysis is great). Good Sp. Defense coupled with decent HP means it can set up on Slowbro's face for example. I've tried to use Growth Politoed too but so far it only worked as a tank rather than a sweeper, but it's still there.
    Can't say anything for ADV and DPP since my experience on those is very little.
    On BW2 it basically defined the OU metagame with Drizzle. 'nuff said.
  22. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Holy cow, this thread is on its 50th topic. I never expected this project to last this long, haha. In honor of that, let's do a Pokemon that's sure to spark some great discussion this week!

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Tyranitar has been consistently OU since its inception. It's also been one of the most dominant forces overall in Pokemon history, earning A-Class in GSC and S-Class in ADV, DPP, and BW in our viability rankings. Powerful, versatile, and able to support its team, there's plenty to discuss about Tyranitar. So, what were its bests sets, roles, niches, counters, teammates, etc. throughout history? You guys know how this works. Let's talk Ttar ^.^

    [​IMG]
  23. Isa

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    GSCTar is the ultimate jack of all trades, master of none. Give him Roar or Curse and he checks Snorlax. Give him Pursuit and he snipes at fleeing foes. Give him DynamicPunch and Snorlax becomes nervous. Give him Fire Blast to roast Skarmory and Exeggutor. Give him Crunch to punish Misdreavus...and so on. Very difficult to switch something not named Machamp or Suicune into Tyranitar, and even then Thunderbolt can deal some damage to Suicune.
  24. BKC

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    ADV
    ttar is the best pokemon. i wasnt around for the days when adv was standard ou, however to my understanding it was primarily cb, dd taunt/ice beam and physical subpunch sets, of course there was also boah but that hasnt really stuck around like those sets have although it certainly isnt bad (one team mcmeghan and i made cm passes to tbolt boah its pretty nasty). malfoy and halloweens stall team circa 2011 introduced mix tar with pursuit as a ghost trapper and general stallbreaker to allow for easy spinning, this also helps things like restalk curselax for example. nowadays even full special sets are common although i'm still very partial to cb because doing over 50% to swampert with focus punch is amazing.

    DPP
    personally i think ttar is the best mon here as well. in the latias days, scarftar became a thing because it was the safest check to it and it was popular like you wouldnt believe, it also pursuits ghosts to open up your spinner and starmie to get rid of theirs. dd has always been a monster, it used to be babiri + fire punch because scizor was the #1 mon in usage by far and it was great to eat that cb bp while ohkoing back but nowadays shuca + ice punch is more common due to flygon/gliscor/hippo. i prefer life orb because it just takes a massive chunk out of everything. band has always been ridiculous, when sdef skarm started getting popular youd have them switch in expecting a (relatively) weak scarf stone edge and then they were very surprised as they took ~80% from cb. expert belt has always been a great lure as well, it still pursuits scarf rotoms like a choice tar would but then it can roast skarm/forre/sciz with fire moves, scor/hippo with ice beam, when restalk gyara stall was really popular i even ran tbolt. sash is a pretty good lead too.

    BW
    started off as a sdef sr mix tar in the days when darkrai skymin and deo-a were still around, it started using chople berry when reuniclus became popular. that set has more or less stuck around the entire generation. scarf eventually popped up again on semistall teams who were annoyed by thundurus especially once it started running lum for sdef rachi. volt switch forre + cbtar was used on stall to remove shit like jellicent and tentacruel. sash was a pretty nice lead early bw2 but now it sucks since the surprise factor is gone and it loses to all other sash leads.
    finally, Jaiho, McMeghan and 3 others like this.
  25. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan

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    Yeah like bkc said, ttar in adv is amazing. It's extremely dangerous with the dragon dance set, can win games entirely on its own with a few lucky flinches. Bulky waters not named swampert really aren't that great at countering it. It's got great bulk, amazing offenses, and only lacks in speed which is of course patched up by the dragon dance set, and not a huge issue in other sets. It's also versatile, outside of the dd set, there are many options that are just as if not more dangerous. Nothing is really safe from the choice band set, the substitute sets can be quite dangerous, and the mixed pursuit set is a huge asset on stall teams. Almost essential on those revolving around forretress. It can even go all out special, many people don't realize how hard a STAB crunch hits. It's typing leaves a bit to be desired with weaknesses to water, ground, and a 4x fighting weakness, but they don't cripple it by any means, and the flying/normal resist is good for trapping cb mence/aero locked into hp fly/ double edge, then pursuiting them on the way out. Finally sandstream is a pretty amazing ability that makes stall much easier, and makes a number of dangerous pokes (suicune, snorlax, heracross, etc) a lot less effective.

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