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All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Crobat

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. george182

    george182

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    Alakazam in Dpp:
    Throughout the whole generation it's been a great pokemon offensively, it started in OU and would abuse it's huge special attack with either a Life Orb or Choice Specs. Psychic, Focus Blast and Signal Beam were staples, while the forth move changed a lot. It had a little fun with a Choice Scarf, during the speed + Scarf obsessed era. The introduction of physical Pursuit and it's new found rival Azelf (who had better defences, levitate and Nasty Plot) troubled Alakazam and once Scizor was introduced, Alakazam just disappeared, it was a very hard pokemon to bring into the game due to poor typing and almost not existent defences and when Scizor became so popular and could so easily force it out, it became pointless to use.

    It was theorized to destroy UU once it dropped down, but everyone forgot how popular priority moves (mainly the move succer punch) were in this metagame. It was also easy to revenge with any scarfed user and Chansey/Registeel's popularity also kept Alakazam in check. It still remains a great choice for UU and is probably the most powerful special sweeper in the tier.
  2. spies

    spies

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    RBY: Alakazam is usually a lead, but that depends on how popular Gengar is. 338 speed is what really breaks it here. Sometimes a fast Thunder Wave can save the game. Reflect allows it to boss around, surviving explosions and enduring Tauros and Snorlax attacks. Its ability to take on any other mon and win is what makes Alakazam so valuable, in my opinion. Plus it can work like Chansey and be a status dump.

    GSC: Alakazam is worth something in GSC because of Encore. Its best way to damage stuff is Toxic... you need master prediction to make Zam work and it's usually not worth it anyway.

    RSE: Zam was really good in 200 because it had access to all the punches and Calm Mind, so it became a very dangerous sweeper. In 386 though, Tyranitar dominating the game (plus Blissey, Snorlax, etc) made it useless.
  3. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    RBY: It's either the best at slowing down the middle game and spreading para with a Reflect-stalling set, or that bookmarks the game with an SToss sleep-absorbing lead set that gets the jump on all the sleepers to let it Recover chip damage before being slept again, and which has a good chance to wake up in the endgame, either to luckily wake up early against Tauros to Twave or Psychic it, or to easily wake up in a stall endgame and contribute. Its biggest weaknesses are that the stalling set runs into major PP issues, as unbeatable as it is on paper, whereas the Sleep-absorbing lead isn't the best role in the world, as great as Zam is at it. Regardless of its issues, Zam is a hallmark of stability and an excellent backup to Chansey (especially relevant if Chansey gets Frozen).

    GSC: At least it's better than the holocaust. Zam isn't good in GSC at all really, it's just too frail and its once-fearsome Psychic lost its crit rate, 30% drop rate, and got new walls in Darks and King Snorlax the Great. At least it gets an Encore that, unlike Jumpluff's, is accompanied by somewhat decent attacking prowess. Encore is nice for screwing up setup sweepers if you can predict well enough to get Zam in on the setup. Zam's also a solid Toxic spreader with STAB Psychic for what that's worth, though its frailty and resultant inability to match up well against literally anything makes it suspect for such a stall-oriented role. It gets other team-support options in Reflect, Light Screen, and Thunder Wave, which get poor distribution, but even then there's still better and more synergistic things to use those moves. If using Zam, use Encore. It's really the only thing it's got going for it, and even then, it's not really worth it.

    RSE: Not too certain about Zam's role here, I've heard CM Zam was a pretty cool dude in ADV 200 but the additions of its classic counters in Ttar, Blissey, and Snorlax when ADV 386 rolled around kinda wrecked it.

    DPP: It lost punches but got better coverage moves in Shadow Ball and Focus Blast. It also got stuff like Choice Specs and Life Orb to give it more oomph. Plus it outspeeds ScarfTar which is cool. Still, it's really frail with no resists, so it's hard to fit synergistically on a team, plus it relies on a shitty STAB in Psychic, plus Scizor is kinda everywhere.
  4. Dukewarrior13

    Dukewarrior13

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    Gen I and Gen II -Alakazam....It was a complete special juggernaut back in the good 'ol days. It got crits often and it was a sweeper as well as a tank. The dream pokemon.

    Gen III- It got some competion in Xatu, Claydol and Hypno but it was still pretty good. The split between special attack and defense didnt treat it very well.

    Gen IV- Now there are special and physical moves? Oh crap. Now alakazam is going downhill. A little more competion but not a whole lot. And an increased movepool helped it some.

    Gen V- The introduction of super powerful darks and more powerful psychics left alakazam in the dust with is speed now average. This classic pokemon's glory days are over in the eyes of most trainers.
  5. adv

    adv formerly Triangles

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  6. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    While the last Pokemon got worse as time went on, Gyarados just kept getting better. It wasn't much in RBY and GSC, but it jumped up to OU in ADV and was a top threat in the tier in DPP. So what changes helped to bring Gyarados into the spotlight, and what sets made it so threatening?
  7. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    rby: gyarados has great stats and a great movepool but is both severely outclassed by pokemon like lapras for its powerful STAB blizzard and starmie for its superior typing, speed/ch rate, and access to recover. gyarados seems like it should be great but it simply doesn't beat much of anything in OU and its STAB moves are rather useless, thus relegating it to UU. the x4 weakness to thunderbolt, which pokemon like starmie, gengar, and lapras, all very OU and very solid checks to gyarados, have access to, doesn't help matters. I never played much UU but i don't remember seeing much of gyarados there either with poliwrath, vaporeon, electabuzz and so on being quite popular.

    gsc: in uu, gyarados was pretty cool. gyarados again has very limited success in ou though because there are simply better choices out there and it doesn't wall much of note, and certainly isn't killing anything in this much more defensive metagame without any way to boost its attack stats, one of which has been significantly lowered from the previous gen. its special attack stat has been decreased from base 100 to base 60 with the special stat split. i've seen gyarados used with small success on mono-water or gimmicky uu stall teams intended to face ou teams, but it really is no more than a gimmick in ou here. it does get access to hp flying and restalk here which it will appreciate in the future.....

    rse: in this gen, gyarados finally gets everything it needs to be a significant ou threat. with dragon dance, taunt, STAB hidden power flying, and earthquake for coverage, its movepool is small but sufficient. its special attack is still atrocious but it has dragon dance to boost its physical attack and taunt to keep itself from being phazed away and to keep skarmory from laying down spikes. magneton becomes its faithful companion, removing skarmory from the equation entirely, which in 200 was really its only good counter alongside the somewhat flimsy solrock. its defensive typing and special defense are still great, and but gyarados also gains intimidate to make it a solid switch-in to fighting and bug attacks, as well as a few other unboosted physical attacks. as full 386 was introduced and the metagame shifted, gyarados' use slowly began to dwindle as newly reintroduced pokemon like zapdos and aerodactyl became much more popular. however, it still has an interesting niche in the ou metagame as a counter to bulky waters and heracross. its main flaws are its weak stab, limiited physical movepool, and its sub-par speed, which allows it to be outrun and revenge kiiled by something like jolteon without a major investment.

    dpp: it's incredible how much gyarados improves in this metagame. it was one of tons of good sweepers in early dp and was probably most successful with dd, 3 attacks, and life orb on offensive teams like husk's astral projections. the physical/special split was very good to gyarados, finally giving it access to STAB waterfall and completely unresisted coverage. speaking of coverage, gyarados also finally gets powerful physical rock and ice moves to smack its mortal enemy zapdos (who wasn't even particularly common anyway iirc) around with. i didn't play much early dpp so i can't say more than that really, but at platinum's release, gyarados gets even better with access to bounce and an overall shift in the metagame. as a great check to super common threats like heatran, scizor, infernape, lucario, etc, gyarados much more useful defensively on offensive teams with the classic life orb sweeper set, or, perhaps more commonly, a bulky dd set with leftovers and taunt to prevent phazing and status and generally screw with stall teams. on the other hand, it becomes a staple for stall teams, surprisingly enough, with a simple restalk set meant to shuffle pokemon around into entry hazards and prevent sweepers from setting up with roar. gyarados shifts from a bit of a roleplayer in adv to more of a metagame defining pokemon in dppt.
  8. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    Gyarados used to be banned in rby UU.
  9. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    oh i guess that would better explain why i don't remember it in rby uu :x
  10. Borat

    Borat

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    RBY: Gyarados is like a shitty Lapras.

    GSC: Gyarados is like a shitty Dragonite.
  11. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    Gyarados is very very good on the GSC UU meta. It can easily switch in on things like Arcanine, Gligar and non-ZC Blastoise, and also Counter major threats like Hitmonlee, Pinsir, Poliwrath and specially Politoed. Its imunity to Earthquake and the STABed Hydro Pump makes him a very good counter to the Ground types. It also learn Thunder to help it beat other waters, and Double-Edge coming from a 348 Attack stat really hurts electrics on the switch in (Magneton already suffer big damage from Hydro Pump and even Fire Blast if you want it). Gyarados doesn't have a very good movepool, but its still hard to know what it can do before it do. Gyarados can mix sweep, can Curse, can RestTalk and also spread paralysis with the Body Slam-Substitute-Zap Cannon moveset.
    Photo likes this.
  12. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    RBY:

    Gyara is a pretty cool dude in RBY OU. Not standard by any means, mostly because it's a physical attacker without STAB Normal moves. Still, it can catch Rocks on predicted Earthquakes and then go to town with its fantastic mixed attacking stats, great Special attacking movepool including STAB Hydro Pump, Blizzard, and Thunderbolt, and of course a Physical movepool including Body Slam and Hyper Beam for killing Chansey. That STAB Hydro Pump is especially nice for letting it beat down on Normal-type attackers in one-on-one matchups. Overall, Gyara isn't fantastic, but it is a nice, viable little attacker that pretty much nothing can switch into safely (except maybe Gengar).

    [​IMG]
    GSC:

    In OU? Garbage. Not much I can really say about it, nobody uses it because pretty much everybody realizes how trash it is. As a mixed attacker, it fails because it has abysmal Special Attack and a shitty Physical movepool, and as a defensive role-player, Suicune does anything it can do, but much better, and then some (except for walling Heracross, I'll give Gyara that). In UU, I've heard from shrapn3l that it's pretty good, but Ive never really played GSC UU so I can't really comment on it. My guess is it probably functioned as a sturdy Phazer for stuff like Growthtoed, and it likely utilized Curse. Or not, this is UU after all, it might very well have just been a pretty bulky mixed sweeper that could also switch into and check a lot of prominent threats.

    [​IMG]
    RSE:

    Hooray, Gyarados is now good. Dragon Dance, Taunt, and Indimidate did wonders for Gyarados, and the EV system coupled with Celebi's drop to OU allowed for Gyarados' brand of Flying STAB offense to make a significant impact. It makes a great Heracross check and can set up on a lot of things that its more popular cousin, Salamence, can't; opposing bulky waters can't touch this thing as it sets up. Still, lack of Rock Slide and the lack of any really useable Special moves (except maybe Hydro Pump?) really put a damper on its coverage movepool, making it quite a bit easier to wall than other Dragon Dancers, especially with Zapdos and Skarm being pretty popular dudes. In metagames where Bulky Waters are rampant and Zapdos isn't all the rage, though, Gyara shines.

    [​IMG]
    DPP:

    Welp. Gyara can now actually use its Water STAB again... and this time, it's off its better attacking stat. Having STAB Waterfall is a huge boon to Gyarados offensively, as is the new movepool addition in Stone Edge (and I guess Bounce, too, for restoring what Hidden Power Flying did). Plus, the overall increase in the effectiveness of attacking types that it resisted made it a much better defensive mon than it ever had been before. Its biggest problem here is the introduction of Stealth Rock, but paired with Rapid Spin support, it still shines in whichever role (offensive or defensive) it's put into. Definitely a top OU here, a status it's probably never enjoyed except maybe in early RSE (and possibly some in-game tier lists).
  13. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    I remember the first time we ever got lead statistics, Gyarados was the most-used lead!! How times have changed lol.

    Another thing I was wondering is, imagine how Gyarados would be if it kept its RBY stats. Before the special split, it basically had base 100 special attack. If it had "kept" that from GSC onwards, it would've been mind-blowingly good at some points, being able to run special moves too.
  14. meteor64

    meteor64

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    It'd be like a Mixmence that beats bulky waters. Oh god.
  15. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Man, I wish I read this thread earlier, Gengar is my favourite Pokemon and would have loved to review him.

    Two more things.

    1.) Gyarados was banned in RBY UU? I want to know more about this!
    2.) Gyara with 100 Base SpA would be awesome. Fire Blast would take out walls such as Ferrothan, or it could spam Thunder on a Drizzle team.

    Anyway, onto Gyarados.

    RBY - Gyarados hits hard here on both sides, thanks to its High Attack and Special Atack. However, the big weaknesses to Thunderbolt may want people to use Lapras instead, who can also make use of Body Slam/Thunderbolt/Blizzard.
    GSC - The Special Split really hurt Gyarados, depriving it of using most Special Moves. It can pull off some sets, but not as well as Dragonite.
    RSE - Thanks to Intimidate, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Earthquake, & Dragon Dance - Gyarados received one hell of a boost. He still has problems with Pokemon that resist Flying and Ground, but he can usually work around those with proper support.
    DPP - While the Special Split in GSC was a massive blow to Gyarados, the Physical/Special split was a major upgrade on it. Waterfall, Stone Edge, Bounce, Earthquake off a huge base attack that can be boosted by DD made Gyarados one hell of a threat. The introduction of Stealth Rock was perhaps its worst enemy, making him lose 25% on switch ins.
  16. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    Although UU for RBY, Jolteon rose to the big leagues and maintained a solid OU position for the next three generations. What limitations did it face, how did it increase and maintain viability, and what were it's best sets in each gen?
  17. adv

    adv formerly Triangles

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    RBY - Although UU, Jolteon is perfectly viable in OU as a mixed attacker. Its very high Speed (it's the fastest thing in RBY along with Aerodactyl), and as such very comparatively high critcial hit rate, fare it well. Jolteon has fairly decent coverage as well - Double Kick for Chansey (and a very weakened Golem/Rhydon), and Pin Missile for the various Psychics (notably Exeggutor) and it also does quad damage to Victreebel and Venusaur in RBY. However, Jolteon is quite easily walled -Golem and Rhydon will need wearing down if you want to clean up late-game with it, Double Kick will need to score a critical hit on Chansey to inflict any significant damage that cannot be simply Recovered off, and often when using Jolteon in RBY, prediction must be sharp, because many of Jolteon's switch-ins are an immediate threat, either inflicting the paralysis Jolteon loathes, or firing off a Super Effective Earthquake. Overall - Jolteon is a decent enough late-game cleaner, although not as much so as the exalted Tauros or the crit-monster Persian.

    GSC - Still learning this gen (through reading Borat's stuff and pretty much stalking M Dragon on PO whenever he plays GSC), but I know that Jolteon only ever sees use in GSC as an Agility passer in the JoltWak combo.

    ADV - Jolteon's main role is still as a Baton Passer, although this time it's Baton Passing something else (Substitutes) or indeed nothing at all (dry passing). Jolteon is a great scout in ADV, and also one of the very best leads, forcing many other common leads right out of the fray and quickly Baton Passing a Sub to a powerful mixed or physical sweeper such as Blaziken or Gyarados, or simply "dry passing" on a predicted switch. But that's not all! Jolteon can also completely wall Raikou with Roar above Substitute on its set, and pass Wishes effectively around the team. Jolteon loves Spikes support, due to its ability to force switches (and phaze on predicted switches) and also the fact that nearly all of its counters are grounded. Overall, Jolteon is a top-notch scout with decent utility, and can also function as a late-game cleaner of sorts, but it is hurt by all forms of passive damage,and is comparatively frail. Jolteon is low OU in ADV, but it should get more use for its merit.

    DPP - Still learning this gen (my first team is an incredibly difficult-to-play with Hail Stall team where the only Ice-type is Abomasnow). After roughly 100 ladder games, I've seen about 5 Jolteons (mostly Specs and 1 Sub-passer) so I don't have enough knowledge to comment about this one. I presume that those two sets are what Jolteon does well in DPP though, along with maybe a Charge Beam set?
  18. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    RBY:

    It's basically a mini-Zapdos that can kind of hurt Rocks with Double Kick, too. Compared to Zapdos, it gets a better Crit rate, can outpace Tauros, Starmie, and even Alakazam, plus it has no Ice weakness so it can go for the crit more easily against Chansey and can afford to stay/switch in against STAB Blizzards from aquatics. So why doesn't it see as much usage as Zapdos? Well, its Defense is garbage, as is its HP, so while it's outpacing Tauros, it isn't taking a hit from it. Snorlax, especially, is a lot for Jolteon to handle, whereas Zapdos often forces the big lug to SelfDestruct. Finally, Jolteon requires 2 unSTABbed coverage moves to hit everything it needs to, which on its own isn't all that bad since Zapdos' 2 moves other than Thunderbolt and Drill Peck are often filler, but it does mean that Jolteon has to predict like mad if it's doing good damage on a turn-by-turn basis while one of those Electric-resisting Pokemon (or Chansey) is still lurking around. Despite its flaws, Jolteon is an excellent mon that kind of acts like a Special Tauros (albeit far more easily walled), and it gets even better in Stadium where Focus Energy actually works and those Physicals that normally destroy Jolteon are nerfed by different Hyper Beam mechanics.

    [​IMG]
    GSC:

    Often considered the best Baton Passer due to its Speed and attacking prowess; for the longest time, GSC's top Phazers were Skarmory and Suicune, and guess what Jolteon just happens to beat? Furthermore, Ground-type Phazers like Rhydon and Steelix take a lot of damage from Hidden Power Water. It also gets Agility, Growth, and even Substitute to pass effectively to its teammates. The popularity of Raikou does take it down a peg, though, meaning it's often easily stopped anyway and therefore probably isn't worth its frailty on any but the fastest of dedicated BP teams. Another fairly unexplored set is the Growth sweeper, where Jolteon doesn't pass Growth but instead uses Rest and its Electric typing to set up a sweep in the face of Electrics. Not as consistent as Vap because it's so much more fragile and is 2HKOed by DE or EQ from Snorlax, but if Snorlax is weakened it has much more raw destructive potential because STAB Electric + Hidden Power is much better coverage than Vap's Water STAB, plus it outspeeds everything.

    [​IMG]
    ADV:

    It outspeeds Dugtrio and gets Baton Pass for getting out of there. I'm not entirely sure what the allure is, Zapdos seems much better as a BPer and as an all-around Pokemon, plus thanks to its Flying typing it has nothing to fear from Duggy, even when Para'd. I guess the lack of an Ice weakness goes a long way, and outspeeding Gengar, +1 DDtar, and tying Aero are nice things to do, too. Jolteon is probably at its best and most consistent in ADV from what I've seen, though.

    [​IMG]
    DPP:

    Not even going to pretend I know how good it is in this gen, apparently it's good with Specs or Charge Beam + Baton Pass, and probably there was an era in an earlier more Speed-obsessed DPP where Scarf Jolteon was the bee's knees. I don't see it in too many DPP battles that I spec, so it doesn't seem to be top-of-the-line OU here.


    Overall, while Jolteon made the jump to OU after RBY and stayed there, it never really transcended that level to be one of the major metagame-definers. I guess it came close in RSE, but really, it seems to always have been just kind of an off-pitch threat to toss out in OU.
  19. Crystal_

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    I thought it couldn't but Growthjolt can actually get past roarkou although it requires spikes. +2 double thunders after a round of spikes downs raikou to around 22% which means that if it roars it will die next turn it switches into jolt. So the thing is that you have to force kou to rest, predict the turn it rests and send something to scare it out, and use growth the next time kou switches into jolt.
  20. Borat

    Borat

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    RBY: Jolteon's pretty damn underrated here. Still tough to get by the rhydon/golems, but a far better chance to do so than with Zapdos. Faster than everything etc. Still not really worth a slot compared to the other sweepers (lax, tauros).

    GSC: Pretty average as far as OUs go. Passes agi and growth, using it as a rester isn't the best idea, since you'd probably need a bell to make it work (or I guess you can ST it with mono-thunder[bolt], but that's just dumb). And relying on bell is never a good thing. Joltlax/wak is probably one of the top ways to hoard wins against bad/new players.

    Also a team of Smeargle, Jolteon, Marowak, Snorlax, Scizor, whatever (I like quagsire personally, but Poliwrath is good too) is pretty damn unstoppable. Smeargle being the most important pokemon to play correctly.

    Pro tip: lower speed DV to allow you to pass second in a mirror match to give you a matchup advantage.
  21. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Electrode!
  22. adv

    adv formerly Triangles

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    Sorry about that - I'm just so used to saying the sentence "Jolteon ties with Aerodactyl as the fastest OU poke in ADV." I'll rephrase myself - Jolteon is the fastest viable poke in RBY OU.
  23. DestinyUnknown

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    Jolteon is used as a Specs/Life Orb user on DPP, and it's good in the sense that it's very fast and can OHKO / 2HKO every OU pokemon with the right move except for Lax / Bliss, making Jolteon very good against Offensive / Balanced teams. Being able to switch somewhat reliably on stuff like Vaporeon or Rotom-A (very common on balanced teams) and being able to revenge kill +1 Adamant Gyarados / Dragonite and every unboosted OU pokemon is a plus as well.

    It can also BP Agility but is very uncommon.
  24. meteor64

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    Jolt is more synergetic with Skarm, Gyarados, Aero, Starmie, and possibly a few others that I can't think of right now. Zapdos is generally better for teams as its bulky, has an overall better defensive typing (Jolt handles BoltBeam better, but thats it), and a slightly more diverse movepool (I think all Jolt gets over Zapdos is Wish, which is...eh) but in terms of baiting attacks and forcing switches, Jolteon fares moderately better when paired with those mons. Jolteon getting up a Sub is basically a free switch with the bonus of switch advantage- thus, Jolteon is capable of forcing your opponent to double switch without you risking yourself mispredicting and losing something important by simply passing to an appropriate counter to whatever is staring you down. Triangles suggested a Roar set without Sub- personally, I find a Roar set without Hidden Power more effective as it capitalises completely on Jolteons ability to force switches- with a few layers of Spikes and a good sense of prediction, you can toy with your opponent, Roaring away counters and Subbing up on anything else. Jolteon also has the fastest Roar in the game, which lets you outphaze Zapdos who try to Roar away your Sub.

    Jolteon has its place. It's not better than Zapdos, but there are times where Jolteon will outshine Zapdos. Jolteon will work much, much better with the pokes I mentioned, but Zapdos is a consistent threat.
  25. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark formerly LucaroarkZ

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    DPP:

    As an avid user of Jolteon in DPP, it amazes me how this thing isn't as used as much as other OU Pokemon. Outside of Blissey and Snorlax, there are very few ways of actually taking this beast on. I don't see how that makes it any different from other Special attackers though, Blissey and Snorlax wall pretty much all Special attackers (NP Infernape is pretty much non-existent at the moment) Once these special walls are gone, Jolteon has exactly 0 safe switch-ins. Blissey and Snorlax are easy to get rid of anyway. Jolteon is very effective when used with the correct team support due to the fact that it OHKOes/2HKOes pretty much everything that's not named Blissey or Snorlax. Outspeeding +1 Adamant Gyarados (much more common than Jolly Gyarados) is pretty huge as well. It also outspeeds +1 Adamant Dragonite, but this is nowhere near as relevant because Dragonite can just use ExtremeSpeed. Despite its frailty on the physical side, its resistance to Bullet Punch is pretty useful.

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