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All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Espeon

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Everything in GSC Ubers walls extremely well, though, as they're all immensely bulky mixed walls (Mewtwo and Ho-Oh are the only ones with less physical bulk than Miltank; they ALL have more special bulk than Raikou, and Recover to boot!). Celebi isn't particularly exceptional in that regard.
  2. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite

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    Scarftar, uturn weak af rip etc
    Bp + np was fun though
  3. BKC

    BKC
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    What?? Celebi was amazing in BW...

    It wasn't used early on and was UU for a while until franky's team introduced it as a rain check who could shrug off Scald burns with Natural Cure while also sweeping with Nasty Plot. When Volt-Turn became popular, Celebi found itself on those teams U-turning while still being offensive. After the Deoxys-S ban a few people like myself and Ojama started using SpD Perish Song on stall teams as a safe Rotom-W switch that could also counter CM Reuniclus. The SpD set was its flagship throughout most of BW2 since it brought things like Keldeo and special Landorus that Celebi was an amazing check to - it was so good against them that they started running Bug moves just to beat it. People started running different sets on the SpD set though, most notably NP BP. Full out NP is still very good in this meta.
    Jaiho and badabing like this.
  4. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs

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    My recollection of BW is a bit fuzzy, but Celebi was a pretty consistently good Pokemon throughout the entire generation. It wasn't OU at first because people didn't seem to catch onto how good it was, but it eventually became one of the better tanks in the metagame. If I remember correctly, physically defensive Celebi was the main defensive set in early BW OU. It made a great check to Terrakion since it could soak up Close Combats like no tomorrow and could even take a CB Stone Edge in a pinch, which made X-Scissor a staple move on Terrakion just for Celebi. It also switched easily into Choice Scarf Landorus locked into anything but U-turn or those sets lacking U-turn altogether, which was great seeing as how Landorus was such a huge threat in Sand during BW1. BW2 brought things like Keldeo and Sheer Force Landorus, so Celebi adapted and specially defensive sets became more common, even to the point where some special attackers started running coverage moves such as HP Bug to beat it (specifically Keldeo). Throughout the generation, Celebi was just an overall great answer to a lot of Pokemon such as Breloom and Water-types in general, especially given its good defensive typing, solid bulk, access to Recover, and Natural Cure to heal annoying Scald burns/Rotom-W's Will-O-Wisp.

    EDIT: Sorta ninja'd by BKC, but whatever.
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
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  5. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Didn't Nasty Plot come first? It's been a long time, but I think I remember that was its first popular set when it was working its way out of UU. I don't know, I just remember always losing half a team to that damn set.
  6. BKC

    BKC
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    Jaiho likes this.
  7. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    tbh the first time i remember seeing cele was on eo's mixken stall like round 3 or 4 bw ou suspect. i feel like that squad also harbored the intro of sdef rachi, good work fag. he was rockin tink with np / giga / hpfire / recover (modest with speed for tar, rest in hp) and while three attacks had some success as a sweeper and lure for things like tran and dnite, the former remained the standard until bw2. at the time it cockblocked drizzle pretty thoroughly, gave u a win condition vs the garbage glisferrojelli stalls being especially nice for setting up all over ferro, and foiled scizor + rotomw while not being so vulnerable to sdef tar pursuit (scarf was nonexistent). to elaborate on the stall matchup, when supported correctly there was very little stall could do (you also saw rain stall becoming hipster from eternal at that point and then seriously trending) to prevent it from outlasting them and sweeping. for example, www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8uIFVuMXHc yes kovin pls. as a bw1 side note, bulkier like str8 walling sets were not rly seen until the metas final stages on things like krack/oristeros/bkc/ojama/whatever cunt stall with teams like this being the main standard http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/toxic-invasion-peaked-1st.3463227/. altho shoutsout k-12 the madchine with the first psonger which i believe was mainly to shut down bulky cm reun (actually a big deal, some thought this could potentially be uber at the time lol, ud uturn with cbzor or pursuit futilely with mixtar and just be fucked) as seen here www.youtube.com/watch?v=onQjD0Fg1fU

    i kinda went off on this so edit for completeness sake: as bkc said, uturning bulky offensive sets were common on volturn mid to late bw1. it was basically just uturn over np to abuse it's pivoting while not losing momentum since its coverage was much more readily checked once np became a metagame staple.

    so when genesect and torn-t were introduced, it kinda died down in usage, but after those bans it came back as a specially defensive pivot often seen on rain/sand offense to stall to cover keldeo and special lando (as well as general water spam and the buffed up breloom) evoking ebelt hp bug keld and all out attacking uturn land to shit on that in response. a little later, np + bp gained ground on rain offense with scarfkeld being a particularly threatening recipient, but i think heist was the true pioneer of that strat way back in bw1 when he had a team with it around a scarf toed/specs empoleon/torn core, not super practical but just devastating when executed. then even with lando banned which had made sdef almost a liability for a while, it never returned to that pinnacle of usage and you often see it needing to be supplemented for keldeo, for instance with jellicent on that bkc stall team (scarftar/tran/cele/jelli/lando-t/forre), being relied on more for its scald tox sponging on sand as well as perish.
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
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  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Nasty Plot?
  9. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Yes, nasty plot.
  10. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I thought it was Nature Power.

    Anyways, I don't see the set much in DP. At least not as much as I should be seeing it I feel. Apart from Scarf Tyranitar (or some other faster stuff), it's scary as hell and can usually make more than a single attempt at sweeping (if the first try fails).
  11. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    i think np three attacks could be an interesting breaker at least, but i don't see it sweeping due to all common scarfers/gar/ape/etc threatening it, along with aspects of its coverage that make it very pivotable (hp fire and earth power), so that with apt prediction and/or lack of team reveal you can prevent it from doing much of anything if need be which is pretty shitty on that kind of mon. np recover is gonna have gapin holes in the coverage and being so tran/skarm vulnerable is never a good idea in dp unless u wanna support the fuck out of it. the same coverage problems apply to the late bw1 metagame as well (even greater due to latis, some tradeoff in that tran isnt as big of a deal) but its defensive niche is just so much bigger with drizzle/scald/rotomw that its presence is justified. i also think that due to the lack of team preview in dp, the scarftar vulnerability on a setup mon can really rear its head and exploiting the uturn weakness is an even bigger strategic advantage for your opponent. the word inconsistent comes to mind, but i have seen am and golden sun using bulky calm mind before. both were on spikes based sand teams as a lategamer which is the only archetype i feel like ur gonna have much success with it because u get more out of it defensively and the rest of those squads (ex. hippo/skarm/starm) typically cover and punish its threats well. compared to the rose or cradily that might go in that slot for hippo squads, the fight buffer (esp loom counter) and harder cune/min response definitely set it apart (reliable longevity compared to rose too).
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  12. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    So did I, until I checked and realised Celebi does not, in fact, learn Nature Power (until XY).
  13. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    It was a joke.

    True, but that has always been an issue for certain setup mons. Jirachi faces the same dilemma with offensive Calm Mind and you have to always take careful consideration with each of its moves due to always dropping coverage one way or the other. Granted, its typing is not as problematic as what Celebi has to work with. It's a trade-off, more power with NP or a a more reliable Pokemon with CM. I definitely wouldn't try NP + Recover though, just too much coverage to drop.

    If I was to use the set, I'd probably throw around the STABs or Earth Power first to possibly catch something (at the very least damage it for later), then go for NP later on. Too risky to boost right away, even mid-game.
  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    When one has actually made an error, recognising that other people are joking about having made the same error is almost impossible.
  15. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    After spending GSC and ADV in BL and DPP in NU, Espeon finally made its way into OU during BW after receiving Magic Bounce from the Dream World. That's not to say it didn't have its niches in the older gens, the classic EspyJump set from ADV being its most famous. So, what roles did it best fill, which teammates worked well with it, and what were its best counters throughout the generations? Anything about Espeon is up for discussion this week~
  16. Xeze

    Xeze

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    In GSC Espeon was blessed with Growth. He can use it to either Baton Pass it to a teammate or try to sweep by itself. The latter is more difficult because of its rather shallow movepool. Phazers don't like to take Growth-boosted Psychics too many times, except for Tyranitar which is probably Espeon's public enemy nr. 1.
  17. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Xeze pretty much said most of what can be said about Espeon, although it should be noted that despite the hype, Growth Espeon was always pretty gimmicky. It should also be noted that Espeon had no place in GSC prior to Growth.

    One cool thing about Espeon is that its Speed and typing let it check a lot of otherwise-annoying threats (Nidoking, Gengar, Machamp, Tentacruel, probably something else I'm forgetting), so it's not defensive deadweight the way other GSC gimmicks can be (e.g., Charizard).
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    This. You did miss out one thing - Espeon, unlike Jolteon and Vaporeon, has instant recovery in Morning Sun. This is very helpful, as it allows it to stick around without being asleep half the time.
  19. Xeze

    Xeze

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    Good point, I completely forgot that. Morning Sun is without a doubt a great tool for Espeon for both Baton Passing and sweeping. 8 PP can be a problem, though.
  20. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Spooky Dawg
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    Not to mention ttar's sand making espeon's form of healing easy to drain.
  21. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite

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    T-tar doesnt have Sand Stream there, if you meant GSC
  22. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    We were discussing GSC, in which Sand Stream does not exist. The reason Tyranitar stops Espeon in GSC is because it's immune to Psychic while commonly carrying Roar to prevent a successful Baton Pass (the combination of the two is necessary because most other phazers take serious damage from Espeon's +1 Psychic, and because a Dark-type without Roar like Umbreon is sad when Espeon inevitably passes its Growth to Zapdos).

    Espeon's next most annoying opponent is Snorlax, which unfortunately for Espy is on every serious team. Espeon is so physically frail that Snorlax 2HKOs it while being only 4HKOed at +1 - and worse, its special bulk is generic rather than dependent on a resistance, so passing the boost doesn't help too much (a special attacker may appreciate the Growth, but they're not going to appreciate the likely STAB Double-Edge they'll be taking as they're Passed in). Snorlax, however, can be worked around with smart play (dry passes, chip damage, taking the DE and passing 2 Growths, etc); Tyranitar can be dry-passed against, but Espeon can't wear it down and can't pull off a full pass no matter what it does.
  23. Isa

    Isa

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    Espeon Hidden Power Fighting vs. Tyranitar: 149-176 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Tyranitar Crunch vs. Espeon: 175-206 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    predict switches, rek ttar, get passes


    The counters to Espeon tends to depend on whatever HP it runs. HP Fighting is obviously very uncommon and not really recommended, but it _can_ work. Common HP's on Espeon are HP Water/Grass/Fire if I remember correctly, and the useful ones against TTar aren't that bad either:

    Espeon Hidden Power Grass vs. Tyranitar: 122-144 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 36.2% chance to 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
    +1 Espeon Hidden Power Grass vs. Tyranitar: 183-216 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 93.6% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
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  24. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Spooky Dawg
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    Oh I wasnt talking about gen 2 when I said that. I was just saying that ttar makes espeon's life difficult ever since ttar was given sand stream. It messes up recovery moves like synthesis, morning sun, and moonlight. TTar being a dark type doesnt help espeon either.
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    If you're running Hidden Power and Baton Pass, then either you're not running Psychic (bad), you're not running Growth (extra super bad), or you're not running Morning Sun (which is one of the biggest reasons to run Espeon in the first place). Typically you're choosing one or the other.

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