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All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Houndoom

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    I always thought Mew was a bit mediocre in adv, it looked a lot like Celebi: same stats and largely the same moves. I definitely think it's a pretty bad pokemon for being Uber tier, but it would be insanely strong in OU. Hard to place I guess.

    EDIT: Taking a closer look at its (adv) movepool, useful ('useful' is subjective) moves that Mew learns that Celebi doesn't:

    Counter
    Dynamic Punch (or maybe not)
    Earthquake
    Endure
    Explosion
    Fire Blast
    Flamethrower
    Focus Punch
    Ice Beam
    Overheat
    Roar
    Rock Slide
    Seismic Toss
    Snatch
    Surf
    Sludge Bomb
    Taunt
    Thunder Wave
    Thunderbolt

    Celebi:

    Baton Pass
    Heal Bell
    Leech Seed
    Perish Song

    Additionally, Natural Cure is better than Pressure in the majority of situations. Then again, Mew has better typing. I feel like Mew is generally overshadowed by Mewtwo.
  2. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Mew is one of those pokemon that had no right to be Uber in RSE and DP, but was banned on principle.

    Mew was never unpredictable. Like Smeargle it might have a massive movepool but it can effectively run 3 or 4 sets at most. It doesn't help that after RBY its mono-psychic type became really bad both offensively and defensively.

    Another problem with Mew is that it's always Taunt bait. No sane person would run 4 damaging moves on Mew, so it's bound to have at least 1 or 2 moves that are disabled by Taunt.
    Unless Mew carries Taunt itself any Taunt user will shut it down (and if it does run Taunt any faster user will do the same).
    Of course there was no Taunt in the first 2 generations and that's exactly why Mew deserved its Uber placement in those.
  3. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    Why would you clause pokemon 'out of principle'? I doubt Smogon would do that. What principle?
  4. JimBob

    JimBob

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    All this suspecting stuff is a recent thing. Back in 2004, and before that, most of the servers on NB had their own banlists which were sort of just determined by the administrator(s) of the server. Mew was banned, well, because it's Mew. As far as I know, no one ever tried it out in OU, everyone just decided it was too good, just like Mewtwo, Kyogre, and Ho-oh.
  5. Ryanor

    Ryanor

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    He means that Mew was banned because it was so powerful in the two first generations that nobody thought that it could deserve a place in OU during ADV or DPP.
  6. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    Mew doesn't learn baton pass (unless you abuse the transform-sketch glitch in some older games, but it isn't relevant for competitive battling).
  7. Ryanor

    Ryanor

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    Yeah, I was wrong. Mew learn Baton Pass in DPP, but not in ADV.

    Anyways, still a overwhelming Pokemon. It's an excellent CMer with BoltBeam and SoftBoiled with the same STATs than Jirachi (and Dugtrio can't trap it so easily). Plus, it can run a powerful set with SD or even can carry a CB and runs Explosion, has access to Hypnosis and Taunt... That's what I call unpredictable.
  8. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    After much consideration I too think it is too strong for OU, but it feels lackluster in Ubers. Mewtwo seems to do everything better, don't forget that Mewtwo has Self-destruct.

    Has there ever been proper testing, i.e. playing OU matches where Mew is allowed?
  9. JimBob

    JimBob

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    Sure, Mewtwo has Selfdestruct, but Mew has Explosion.
  10. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    From OU to BL to UU, Steelix has been on a steady decline since its inception. So, what changes to the metagames caused this drop, and what were Steelix's best sets, roles, counters, and teammates throughout the generations?
  11. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Steelix is great in GSC because it tanks both Snorlax and Electrics all in one (at least their most common sets). Since Snorlax, Zapdos, and Raikou are the three best mons in the game, a Pokemon that can switch into and match up well against them all is going to be great. Steelix in GSC runs a basic Earthquake/Curse/Roar set, followed by one of Rock Slide, Body Slam, or Explosion, each of which has its merits. It's fantastic with Spikes down and a true terror in the endgame, although when trying to open things up, Steelix is pretty mediocre. Also worth noting is that it's arguably the best emergency Phazer in the game, as it can switch into and Phaze both AgiPass Umbreon and Curselax, in addition to Thunder Missy and ML Pass Umbreon, and thanks to its status-immune typing, it can do it all without being whittled away by Toxic or screwed over by a full paralysis.

    As far as ADV, it declined in usage as everyone flocked to Skarmory/Metagross as their Steel, or Swampert/Claydol for their Ground. Steelix's main turn-off relative to other defensive Pokemon is that it's weak to Earthquake, and of course its offenses are too weak for it to try to find a niche in that kind of role. Steelix is still good, though, and the toughest Rock Slide absorber you'll ever find, and all-in-all is a decent Spikes shuffler (much like its GSC counterpart).

    Steelix in DPP is a decent Phazer/Rocks setter in lower tiers I guess, I'm not entirely sure where it fits into DPP. The main thing keeping it out of OU, though, is that the metagame shifted from one where power and defenses were king to one where speed was king. Steelix is REALLY slow, so naturally, it's pretty limited.
  12. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    What I liked most about Steelix (aside from his obvious monstrous defense) is neutral damage from both HP Ice and HP Grass and the ability to threaten enemies with explosion, stab EQ and roar, making him a solid check to many things (i.e. Raikou, bp Jolteon, ...,).
  13. meteor64

    meteor64

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    In Adv, Steelix is both compromised and blessed when compared to other steels. In terms of typing, walling electrics is something it can most definitely boast about, yet at the same time it withers in the face of any Surf. It can't Spike like Skarm, but it can Explode. Unlike Forretress it can actually touch Gar without resorting to stupid things like HP Ghost, but it doesn't support your team in the same way. It doesn't present a huge offensive threat like Metagross, but its much better at taking hits, and while it may be weak to EQs unlike Skarm, it can at least directly fend off the TTars/Metas/Mences throwing them its way.

    Lix's biggest problem is the fact that its a bit of an inbetweener who doesn't really accomplish a lot by himself. Skarm can wall, Spike and Phaze, which is a great combination of assets. Forry can kinda wall, Spike, Spin and Explode. Meta hits things hard and Explodes on things he can't. Steelix can Phaze, but he has no Spikes to compliment it. He can wall physical threats, but really suffers when faced with +1 EQs. He can Explode, but then you're sacrificing your wall, and additionally I'm pretty sure Cune can survive it. His forte is on teams with heavy Zapdos/Raikou/ issues (and I suppose by extension Jolteon) where Skarmory and Forretress simply cannot function (at which point you're probably carrying Cloyster for Spikes, which is risky in the current metagame).
  14. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    The stallish nature of GSC allows him to operate just fine. His typing grants very cool immunities, while his Defense keeps most Physical threats in check. Opponents are forced to use Special attacks if they have any hopes to beat him. Except for some Fire moves at times, it's easy to see super effective attacks coming, so you ccan just switch out. Finally, Rest keeps him healthy and is an OK option, especially if you have Blissey or Miltank waiting with Heal Bell.

    In ADV, he's an option, but you can easily see his issues. Lack of a useful ability, no Spikes, still only having Rest, etc. While his typing is nice for Electric attacks, I don't think it's good enough with Calm Mind being used everywhere. Unlike other defensive threats like Skarmory or Swampert, he can't set up Spikes or provide reliable walling for Special attacks. Just a physical wall who can Roar and that's it. You need to make sure he works well in your team, while others can be "thrown on" (for the most part).

    In DPP, it's pretty clear that he can never move up past UU. Very little attack (which has always bothered me ever since GSC), still no reliable recovery, many Pokemon doing his job better than he can, physical threats hitting harder than ever with moves like Close Combat or stronger Earthquakes...

    Look at Steels in OU. Except for Bronzong (which is saved by Levitate), each does something or has something notable and fulfill roles besides the generic "switch in on physical/resisted moves." Skarmory has Spikes and Roost, Forretress can use all entry hazards and has Rapid Spin, Magnezone traps other Steels, Scizor has its amazing utility and offensive moves, Jirachi is arguably the most versatile Pokemon in DPP OU...Even outside of Steels, he gets outdone. Hippowdon essentially outclasses him, possessing instant recovery, better Special bulk, better Attack, and of course, Sand Stream.

    Fortunately, he gets to do well in UU, where he can get a little more breathing room to capitalize on his ability to cause switches and mess with the opponent.
  15. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    From UU to BL to OU, Smeargle's history is quite interesting. Of particular note is the retroactive Ingrain ban in ADV. Anyway, you guys know the drill by now. What were its best sets, roles, counters, etc. throughout the gens?
  16. AraShaun

    AraShaun

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    Smeargle has always been one of my favourite Pokemon (Not top but up there), obviously because of the ability to do cool move combos.

    Im not sure about GSC/DPP, but in 3rd gen he always seemed like Mew, outclassed in his teir mostly, but held up because of the ability to do insane things.

    Also I disagree that they banned Ingrain Smeargle, It wasnt exactly prevalent or even too good, but bans like that are fiddly and take away from the game imo
  17. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    In GSC he is a pretty scary Baton Passer. Spore lets him pass whatever the hell he wants to. Agility, Belly Drum, Substitute, in some formats, even Spider Web... thing's a monster. Of course, in practice it can be really tough to get him in a good position, but once you do, it's basically insta-win.
  18. AraShaun

    AraShaun

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    Yeah he's pretty Risk/Reward, that basically sums him up in every gen XD
  19. meteor64

    meteor64

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    It was banned BECAUSE it was taking away from the game, there was no competitive value in keeping it.

    Anyway, ADV Smeargle is pretty useless outside of BellyPass. Anything else he can pass can be passed by something else faster and less paper-like. Theres really not much else to say about him.
  20. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
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    Smeargle has always been and will be the best Baton Passer by excellence, in terms of being able to pass all kinds of boosts. If only it got an evolution, Baton Pass would be much scarier. It's very interesting in all gens, in gen 2 he has decent speed, outspeeding a lot of common foes, being able to do what Jorgen said.
  21. BKC

    BKC
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    in the dpp lati/mence era, smeargle became really popular as an sr + spikes lead for offensive teams because it absolutely shit all over the bulky leads like swampert, hippo, forret, empoleon and non-lum metagross. then metagross started carrying lum for it & roserade, faster taunters (azelf, aero) became more prominent, and the new fake out infernape lead completely decimated it, so it dropped in popularity. once lead machamp came along, smeargle basically ceased to exist.

    nowadays i'm not sure if smeargle is good or not, but i'd have to lean towards no. i haven't used it (i know kd24 has) but i much prefer suicide froslass + something else for quick hazards on offense, since too many things either force smeargle to only get up sr or just don't let it set anything up at all.

    in adv all i know is that cbb has this really gay team (a lot of other people've used it as well) where smeargle passes +6 atk/+1 spe to a cb metagross and kills everything. if the opponent is threatening roar, pass to cradily instead!
  22. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    So, Blissey's been OU since its inception in GSC. With unrivaled special bulk, it's pretty much the face of stall. So, what are its best sets, roles, counters, etc., and how has it fared throughout the ages?
  23. BKC

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    in general: best special wall in history, "no skarmbliss(cress)", makes special attackers everywhere either adapt to it and/or have a teammate specifically tailored to luring and killing it, and it's still great (in adv/dpp at least, i've heard several top players call gsc blissey "straight up garbage" or something similar)

    adv: idk what it was like in the old days but blissey is almost always cm now and it's been that way ever since dracomalfoy's stall team became popular.

    dpp: i think in early dp wish bliss was banned because it was an event or something. it's allowed now but no one uses wish on it anymore though which is a real shame because it's pretty great. protect scouts choice banders and it also can catch heatran trying to explode on you. in the latimence era jabba's team made sr bliss pretty popular since it gets approximately a million free turns per battle to do what it wants and its usage shot up again after kg rmt'd his version of it (suicune over latias is a really bad change for the record!!! use starmie if anything). blissey without toxic or twave is asking to get set up on by everything.
  24. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Yeah, GSC Blissey is pretty bad, which is weird considering how GSC has the reputation for being the slowest of the generations. Most of that has to do with the fact that, since everything in GSC is pretty bulky, Blissey's extreme Special bulk is not really necessary, making its lack of any attacking prowess too much of a downside. Also, the limited amount of passive damage in GSC relative to other generations (only 1 layer of Spikes, no sand, Toxic resets to normal Poison upon switch-out, everything has Rest) makes simply sitting around walling things less of an option.

    Blissey's main role in GSC is more support-and-run, kinda like Forretress. You come in, Heal Bell up (Blissey probably gets more chances than Miltank to switch in and use Heal Bell), or set up a Light Screen, or maybe even toss out a Toxic if you expect Snorlax will be coming in to capitalize off you (he will). Blissey can also wall Electrics, but that just ends in a PP stall that the electrics will probably end up winning anyway. You're better off passing Light Screens to Snorlax so it can set up in the face of those Thunders.
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    The problem with GSC Blissey is that its stats and typing (Normal-type special wall) force it into competition with Snorlax. Snorlax is the best Pokemon in GSC OU. Sure, Blissey's got Heal Bell, but so does Miltank, and Miltank doesn't clash with Snorlax due to being a physical wall instead of a special one.

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