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All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Houndoom

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Yeah, but most Tyranitar run Pursuit, which checkmates Wobbuffet anyway. Those that don't are either pure MixTars (and thus reasonably likely to be running Thunderbolt, which also trolls Wobbuffet) or pure CurseTars (and thus able to beat it with CurseRoar).
  2. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The original badass, Mewtwo is the only Pokemon to be Uber in every generation. So, how did this titan fare among the toughest monsters in the game, and what were its best sets, roles, niches, and counters throughout the gens? Get the big guns ready, cuz we're talking Ubers this week.

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  3. BKC

    BKC
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    mewtwo is terrifying in dpp because it is 1) unbelievably strong 2) incredibly versatile. usually seen as an all out lo attacker with 3 cvg attacks (ice beam / aura sphere / thunder, grass knot, fire blast/flamethrower) + selfdestruct. it can also use cm > sd. speaking of cm, it has several of those sets; aside from the aforementioned lo 3 attacks, it can also sub, taunt and recover. hes seen on mew bp teams as well, with taunt / screens / sd to set up mew for the setup and pass. scarf is pretty cool, cleans pretty hard lategame since offenses scarfers (palkia/kyogre/darkrai/skymin) cant outspeed it anymore. however imo the absolute best and hardest to beat variant is the legendary stalltwo... with taunt / wisp / recover / light screen, very high hp, and pressure, he wears things down with ease while remaining practically unkillable himself.

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  4. Xeze

    Xeze

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    In RBY, you all know the deal. Basically the most terrifying thing Pokémon has ever seen. Because of the existence of a single special stat, Amnesia gave him the equivalent of +2 Sp. Atk and +2 Sp. Def. Coupled with his blazing speed (== more critical hits), instant recovery with Recover and with the fact that Psychic was only resisted by Psychic-types themselves, Mewtwo was almost unstoppable after setting up. Seriously, most RBY Ubers matches are decided by whose Mewtwo dies first.
    In GSC Mewtwo was toned down a lot. The special split happened, Steel- and Dark-types were introduced and Amnesia only raises Sp. Def. So Mewtwo here is not even close to the monster he used to be. Still he is a great Uber and has such a big movepool at his disposal. He can be an all-out mixed attacker with attacks like Thunder(bolt), Ice Beam, Submission, Fire Blast, Dynamicpunch, Psychic, Shadow Ball, etc. or use Curse to attempt a sweep. He also has access to instant Self-destruct, Thunder Wave, Reflect and Recover to help him and the team.
  5. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    A king of support, Forretress has been OU since it got its start in GSC. So, what are its best sets, roles, nices, counters, teammates, etc.? Let's talk about that spinning cutey Forry~

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  6. Crestfall

    Crestfall Aurum est potestas
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    From its start in GSC Forretress was given the new and rare Steel typing giving it some nifty resistances along with another minor gift in Toxic immunity for OU play. However more importantly from his typing and bulk he is one of the better spikers in the game. He also gets rapid spin to clear spikes on your side off and even better is his beautiful boom which will dent any non-steel or ghost allowing some good momentum. Although rare I did hear of a Curse set from a good Gen2 player her on PS just to bother lax (but curseforry lol).
    Common Set:
    Forry @ Lefties
    --Spikes
    --Rapid Spin
    --Explosion
    --Toxic/HP Bug
    This is what I believe is the most common and popular set up, though not difficult to figure out as every forry will carry the first 2 without fail.

    Abilities are added and Forretress gets a helping hand with Sturdy. Not sure on gen3/4, but Forry in gen5 with custap lead was a guaranteed 2 layers of hazards of your choice. You stealth rock and hold on with Sturdy and lay them spikes down. I think only rayquaza and fpunch/espeed deoxys could prevent the 2nd layer of hazards in Ubers where rocks and 1 spikes is plenty. And with Gira being more common last gen, you could spinblock your enemy and keep those hazards up (though we do have Gengar now ofc). He also gets the nifty volt switch for gaining momentum if an opponent tries to bring in a set up sweeper and you promptly switch to a check/counter. And as always bug/steel is a phenomenonal type and lets him get off a few toxics, should u run it throughout a match!
    Forry @ Custap Berry
    Ability - Sturdy
    --Rocks
    --Spikes
    --Spin/Toxic/
    --Volt Switch/t. Spikes
    Though I'm sure players better than me used a different set. Unless you want to spin later or use forry as fodder I wouldn't run the pivot move. But this still was a standard set I believe.

    As for Gen6 we see the fall of Forry in both OU and Ubers. With defog more common than ever, 2 resistance losses and most importantly the lack of Custap we see Forry fall from above. Instead the only spin seen in OU nowadays is Excadrill and defogs abound (Mandi Lati etc).

    All in all Forrys had a good time in the series so far and perhaps if Custap is released we see his rise again.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  7. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite Banned deucer.

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    i guess hp ghost/fire works in gsc too on last slot

    forry is cool in dpp ou but RLY cool in dpp ubers where hazards are more dominant with gira etc, and poisons p much dont exist so tspikes really does work

    in bw it spikes shit, but is taunt bait idk ive never really used it. As suicude lead skarm is better yn
  8. Bedschibaer

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    Considering there are only 4 spikers in gsc (Forry, Cloyster, Qwilfish and event Delibird, not counting Smeargle) saying "one of the better spikers" isn't really a big achievement. I will just go so far and say that Qwilfish and Delibird are completely unviable in the gsc ou metagame and therfore only compare it to Cloyster. There was a thread about gsc forry on here not long ago so i guess i will just sum up the main points of it. Forry has a couple of things over the more used and arguably overall better Cloyster - spin+explosion, a toxic immunity, a bigger longlivety against most Stall teams, Stab hidden power bug to hit Starmies trying to spin on it, it doesn't get ohkoed by thunder missy/gengar, takes neutral damage from boltbeam and is therfore a decent stop to nidokings, gengars, dragonites, and due to physical bulk it can be a stop to things like heracross and mono normal attackers (i will say something about that later, so wait before you type that it's setup bait).
    The set Crestfall posted is in fact what most forrys look like, but it does have an actually broader range of options. Reflect and Curse help it stall out physical attackers, +6 lax versus +6 forry will always end in a pp stall, unless someone gets lucky with crits. Hp Bug got already mentioned, Toxic is pretty obligatory too, which can help winning the spikes war in the long run versus Cloysters very effectively since they usually lack rest and versus Starmie somewhat effectively. Giga Drain is an option that hits Cloysters very hard and forces the Cloyster to switch out. Hidden Power ghost can hit Missy or Gengar coming in to spinblock it. Hidden power electric is an option as it hits Cloyster too and additionally grants a 4hko on Skarmory, even though you might just be better off using hp electric Cloyster when you want to go that far. Hp fire actually 2hkoes opposing Forrys, but outside of that it is pretty much a waste of a moveslot. Considering that Forrys usage is not very high generally i don't think it will be worth it most of the time.
    Forry has one huge problem - fire moves. And gsc is a meta where everyone and their mother can run a fire coverage move, even fucking Machamp runs Fire Blast sometimes. You will often have to play very hesitantly with your Forry to scout for fire moves if you don't want your spiker/spinner ohkoed early.
    Forry only works on spikes based teams, because well, that is it's main purpose in life. You are using a whole mon dedicated to it, so make use of those spikes. If your team is not strictly centered about Spikes you might as well use Cloyster instead, which has way more offensive presence. Mons that work with it: Suicune, Rhydon, Ttar (phazer, can come in on fire blast lax), Raikou (kinda self explainatory, absorbs special hits, phazes), Missy (best spinblocker).
    In case that isn't enough on gsc forry you can just look up the thread, it's still on page 1.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
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  9. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Chill Dawg
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    I believe that the biggest thing that made forretress ou viable throughout the gens was its ability to spin and set hazards without the need of wasting another pokemon slot. In gsc and adv, the only other pokemon that can do what it does was cloyster (and smeargle/delibird). The problem with cloyster though was its multiple common weaknesses (most hitting his weak special side). In adv, fire type moves and pokemon were somewhat uncommon which helped keep forretress safe from its only weakness. Forretress and skarm were really the only reasons pokemon carry fire coverage moves at all.

    In gen 4, stealth rocks were added to its arsenal; something cloyster was not blessed with. That right there distinguishes it from cloyster and delibird completely. Blastoise and donphan gets rocks as well and they are able to spin but they lack spikes. Then in gen 5, the custap berry, sturdy buff, and perma rain only helped it more. The only thing that it was not able to do as well in gen 5 was go boom but that is true for almost every other boomer. In xy, although it has been given a buff to its overcoat ability to become immune to powder moves, the lack of perma rain, and custap berries really held it back. Excadrill becoming a better spinner for offensive teams also held it back since stall is more difficult in xy. It just becomes set up fodder to many pokemon. However, the final straw that broke the camels back for forretress was the defog buff. It completely ruins whatever forretress tries to do and it has no way of stopping it. It did have a good ride while it lasted though.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  10. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite Banned deucer.

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    Blastoise gets rocks?

    Also Cloyster has that nice niche over Forre in ADV, not being fucked over by Mag.
  11. Typhlito

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    Lol my bad I dont know where I got blastoise from. For some reason I thought he had it .-.

    Also, forre is only really wrecked by hp fire modest mag since none of its other moves can ohko it while forre can nail it back with an earthquake. A hp fire from a timid mag is unable to ohko special defensive forre either. Magneton would rather carry hp grass or ice since hp fire would only do more damage to steelix and forretress. It also NEEDS hp ice/grass to have a chance against duggy. Cloyster on the other hand is forced out by mag since its tbolt easily kos it.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  12. Jorgen

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    Bedschibaer's overview was p thorough. It's important to note that a lot of Forry's better supporters, if put together, make a team that struggles to deal with hard Grounds like Marowak and Steelix (Suicune can frequently be your only real counter). This is why Cloy is often used instead, even on stall teams that would prefer Forry's longevity.

    Also, Forry isn't exclusively useful on stally teams. I remember Kururin on the PO ladder used Forry as a sort of suicide lead on a boom-heavy offensive team, and it wasn't that bad. It was pretty good at getting lead Electrics to just stay in on it and go for Thunders, which gave you the option to tank or dodge a Thunder and get un-delayed Spikes against a possibly spin-less team, or maybe even go for the turn 1 Explosion.
  13. Nitro.

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    ^Turn one spiking vs electrics is arguably forretress' biggest selling point in gsc. I'll trade half his health for that gladly.

    If you have another spinner, say, starmie, you can run a Forre set like Spikes/HP Bug/Toxic/Explosion which can be REALLY annoying to some teams.
  14. Bedschibaer

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    I gotta note that a critical hit Thunder from both Zapdos and Raikou ohkoes Forry. I know a crit is a tiny chance and all, but i just wanted to add that turn 1 forry isn't a completely bulletproof turn 1 spikes.

    I got a question though, how "worth" is turn one spikes forry actually? By worth i mean using it over Cloyster. Scenario 1: Turn 1, Forry versus Zapdos, Zapdos thunders, forry loses ~60% of its HP, Forry spikes. Scenario 2: Turn 1, Cloyster versus Zapdos, Cloyster switches out to [insert ground type or at least electric resist you should have here] comes in. Thunder does no or not alot damage. Depending on what you switched in, let's just say Exeggutor here, Zapdos uses Hidden power ice. You predict this and go to Snorlax. Snorlax takes 12% damage. Snorlax vs Zapdos is a matchup your opponent will not risk staying in, because at almost full health he is basically just wasting Thunder pp there, opponent switches out, you double switch to cloyster and get up your unhindered spikes on turn 5 by only trading ~25% on an Eggy and ~10% on a lax. Considering most instant lax switchins (Skarm, Steelix, Rhydon, Ttar, Miltank, Umbreon, etc) can not really harm Cloyster seriously or are forced out by it you get up spikes for an arguably better trade of health. Ttar is actually the only mon that can harm Cloyster with a ~50% Rock Slide with a threat of taking roughly equal damage from a potential Surf, Rhydon would be too but it won't stay in on the surf OHKO threat.
    Scenario 2 might look like a bit of a wall of text at first, but it is a pretty simple switch chain that is realistically going to happen in a gsc match where both players play it "safe", which they should be doing in the first 5 turns of a gsc match. Scenario 2 gives you the same hazard situation by trading off less. You can create that scenario with different mons/movesets pretty easily, basically it's get in cloyster when you scare out the electric.
    Now a less specific approach to my question: I guess i don't really see it because my playstyle is never really reliant on early (as early as possible in that case) spikes, but what exactly is so important about it that you basically use a pokemon slot for it? What is so important about it that makes it Forrys biggest selling point? Getting the electric to stay in and thunder first turn is nice and all, but other things do that too. Exploding on the electric: Exeggutor can instantly blow up on zapdos and on some raikous. Getting the early spikes: possible with cloyster too and a minimum of prediction. Luring a thunder to get in a ground type of some sorts: cloyster does that way better.
    I guess what i am trying to say with this wall of text is: what exactly makes turn 1 spikes versus electrics that big of a selling point for forry?
  15. magic9mushroom

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    T1 Spikes vs. Zapdos isn't worth it, because they have Zapdos which counters Spikes anyway. T1 Spikes vs. Raikou may be worth it. Cloyster's probably better vs. Lax lead since you don't instantly die if it Fire Blasts (Thunder is pain though, and being 4HKOed by Double-Edge isn't fun either).

    I was in hospital last week, so I didn't get a chance to comment on Mewtwo.

    In RBY Ubers it's just stunning; not only is it the best special wall (Chansey's got more special bulk, but it can be broken by STAB Psychic spam and can only boost its bulk with Light Screen; Mewtwo not only resists Psychic, but can use Amnesia to repair its Special, increase its bulk twice, and set up on offense at the same time), but it's also got a ton of physical bulk, 32 PP Recover, a 25% crit rate, and a 406 Special that it can double in a single turn along with the amazing mono-Psychic typing that gives it no weaknesses (strongest Bug move is only 50 Base Power, and it's unique to a Pokemon Mewtwo outspeeds and OHKOs). Nonetheless, some counterplay against it is possible; versions without Ice Beam can be safely frozen by opposing Mewtwo, versions without Thunderbolt have some difficulty with Slowbro (the classic TobyBro set was originally created as a counter to Ice Beam/Psychic/Amnesia/Recover Mewtwo), and versions without Psychic can be engaged in a freeze war by opposing Light Screen Chansey (with Freeze Clause on, Chansey wins even if it loses, as one's own Mewtwo is then immune to freeze). Mewtwo can also run an Alakazam-esque set with Psychic/Barrier/Thunder Wave/Recover; this is a hard counter to every single variation of Mew, but forsakes its extreme sweeping potential.

    In GSC Ubers it's something of an oddity; as Amnesia was nerfed, and Calm Mind didn't exist yet, it's actually unable to set up on the Special side. So you've got a Pokemon that can hit hard on both sides, but has a bad STAB (Lugia, Mewtwo itself, Mew, Celebi, Steelix, and Tyranitar all resist it, and Snorlax doesn't take that much damage either), can't phaze and can't set up apart from Curse. As such, it tends to find its niche as the mixed attacker of Ubers - thanks to its enormous movepool, it's able to threaten an awful lot of things, but it does have bad 4MSS. It's very unpredictable because it just has so many options.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  16. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Spikes are always useful, whether your opponent runs Zapdos or Raikou. In my experience, a Raikou team is more likely to run spin than a Zapdos team, so in that sense, it's more worthwhile to go for T1 spikes vs. Zappers. The whole point of T1 spikes is to avoid delays in getting Spikes up in case the opponent can't spin it away. Keeping Cloy leads from doing that is what makes Electric leads good in the first place.

    Now, Snorlax doesn't force out a full-health Zapdos necessarily, in fact Zapdos can likely stay in vs. Raikou to try to para it. Quagsire is probably your safest best, and even then, HP Ice on the switch neutralizes that threat. Not to mention that your opponent's own Cloy is likely to make it an equal ditto by switching straight in on Quag. You could bring Ttar in on an HP Ice to try to dissuade Cloy switch-ins, but then Thunders hurt. Point is, it's not so trivial to double-switch on a Zapdos (which is a huge part of what makes Zapdos so good), which means getting Cloy in can be pretty risky. And if it comes to outright switching Cloy in on a, say, Steelix, that switch is so transparent that a double to Zapdos by your opponent is basically zero-risk and further acts to delay your Spikes. Forr avoids the OHKO, and thus does not risk certain death from the second-most common Pokemon and the most common lead in the game, ergo, early Spikes are just way easier to set up.

    There's also the fact that Forr lead is a problem for a lot of other likely leads that typically run SE moves against Water without Fire coverage (Nidoking, Gengar, and Egg come to mind). It still has to run scared in case they do run Fire, though, but it can often force their hand in terms of either revealing the Fire move or tossing out Sleep to prevent Spikes. If you're going all-in with the lead Forr strat, Protect could actually be a nice way to help you scout these guys.
  17. Nitro.

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    Very true, protect Forre can (relatively) safely lead vs snorlax. It can be very handy.

    @Bed - not bad points at all but here is the thing. You could go through scenario 2 (standard cloyster play basically) but you should note that you risked Exeggutor getting par'd by thunder in that scenario. Plus it is definitely not a given that a zapdos won't just stay in and pop thunder on snorlax (though I agree with you that he really shouldn't, but the point is he could).

    Besides, once you play out those first 5 turns and your cloyster is finally ready to spike, you find out the opponent had a starmie the whole time. I could have found that out on turn 2 with Forretress, and even if Forre is spun on turn 2, you still get some tempo from the fact that your opponent is opening the game having to spin. At this point you can set up toxic on Starmie if you have it or w/e instead of having to really drag this process out over many turns and defensive switches taking chip damage.

    But lets say in scenario 1 that they don't have a spinner and I just trade thunder for spikes. Thunder's accuracy, btw, is a factor here. Tbolt crit won't one shot (I don't believe, Zapdos high roll IIRC maybe has a chance) but Thunder is inaccurate so it's like a ~4.5% chance to kill forretress instantly. If you're playing scared of 4.5% chances constantly you're just going to lose anyway. ANYWAYS, turn 1 I trade spikes for 60% health, turn 2 I go to roar Raikou. Now I'm in the driver's seat. It's hard for cloyster to get in and match spikes now with my electric constantly active whenever I possibly can have it active and things like lax are just racking up damage trying to switch in. Basically, if you don't play flat footed, you can jump out to big leads chunking the opposing team automatically through a spikes advantage. This can also be very useful specifically for certain styles of teams, that don't really have infinite defensive switching potential but would prefer to win sooner rather than later, before the proper walls are all figured out by the opposition (or curselax just inevitably manages to get some breathing room and just wins).

    Trading that damage on Forre is worth free spiking cause Forre can still do what he does effectively at 45% - threaten to explode on lax, egg, nidoking.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
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  18. Cowboy Dan

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    In adv forre has a couple niches, the first and most obvious one is the ability to spin and spike at the same time. This allows forretress to easily set up on opposing skarm, and also frees up team slots, although it also has the effect of putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak, especially against mag teams. Cloyster can do this as well without the worry of magneton, and the ability to hit gar sorta hard, but forre has the advantage of being able to switch in on skarm without being hit by toxic, as well as having better resistances in general. It also has a small niche in that it's a spiker that can really dent starmie, which is the spinner that gives gengar (by far the best spinblocker) the most trouble. Other things it has going for it are explosion (albeit a fairly weak one), and being not quite as mag vulnerable as skarmory. It has a few things that set it behind skarm though, mainly it's lack of a phazing move, making it easy set up bait, and it's slightly worse typing that gives it a huge fire weakness, gets rid of some useful resistances, namely flying and ground, and deprives it of a spikes immunity. Other than that it's pretty good as a spiker. As a spinner it is completely outclassed by pretty much everything. It needs pursuit support or it's just a free switch for gar. The only thing it has going for it is that toxic immunity to switch in on skarm with no fear.
  19. Lord Ninjax

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    Forretress is one of the best, or at least the original utility support Pokemon, it could spin and set hazards, something that nothing beyond Cloyster could do (and Forry has better typing, movepool and support options to Cloyster's offense) ADV gave Cloyster a boost in that it was immune to Magnet Pull, which plagued Forry essentially forcing it to run EQ over a support move or Explosion. DPP blessed Forry with Stealth Rock and T-Spikes, being the only Pokemon(aside from Smeargle) with all 3 hazards, plus it could remove them from your side, making it invaluable in that sense. Gen 5 Forry was extremely crucial: Hazards help win weather wars and beat VoltTurn teams, perma rain shelters it from fire blast, and yeah, it was the best utility Pokemon(Cloyster became offensive cause of Skill Link+Shell Smash, Ferrothorn was more of a wall.) Of course, yeah Gen 6 is the fall point for Forretress, as Defog on one hand destroys its hazard setting, on the other renders its spinning obsolete, making it useless. So yeah Forry had a great run in competitive play but Gen 6 is the point where we say bye to it as a defining Pokemon.
  20. Jorgen

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    Just to point out, Cloy is better than Forry in GSC because Cloy covers the Grounds that Forry cannot, and with only 1 layer of Spikes, covering specific threats is given more weight than just general tanking ability. In ADV, Forry is better, as its mono-weakness typing and less lopsided defensive stats make it a lot more effective at general tanking, which is more valuable in ADV with multiple layers of Spikes.
  21. Lord Ninjax

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    Yeah, I'm not really active in GSC, so I wouldn't know. Still though, yeah, Forry has a better typing and defensive ability, while Cloyster has awful SpDef, and bad defensive typing (making Cloy an offensive spinner means it will be inferior to Starmie)
  22. magic9mushroom

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    Water is a good defensive typing, because it gives STAB Surf for shooing away Grounds.

    In GSC, Cloyster's typing and stat spread is better than Forretress', because it means Cloyster can directly force out Forretress and help defend against Grounds such as Steelix and Marowak. Forretress is useless on defense besides its Explosion because it can't actually force anything out (no Roar, no powerful or well-typed attacks) and is therefore Curse bait.
  23. BKC

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    adv forretress became popular with spdef and hp bug to ward off starmie/claydol on the famous dracomalfoy/halloween stall team. it absolutely requires pursuit support (mostly ttar, sometimes houndoom) to spin because it is never beating gengar. some people use this adamant hp ghost set though which is pretty cool and means pursuit isnt /required/ meaning the ttar you probably have on your team can run an actual good set. i personally dont like forre without explosion, it is too good and its other moves arent nearly as useful.

    i wasnt around for dp but after platinum came out forre started using spdef with payback (think it was ipl who did it first) to nail the new rotom forms that everyone was in love with and were usually an easy spinblock. it is also excellent in ubers, where toxic spikes are an absolute terror.

    there was a period in bw1 where people were running a bit of spatk (the standard was 36 but i think i ran something in the 70s at times) and hp ice... sounds retarded but it was really good because it still hit dragons that forre checked while hitting landorus hard and making it an almost perfect gliscor counter. it was also nice to get a little more damage on volt switch vs things like jellicent coming in to spinblock. in bw2 gyro ball is almost necessary for kyurem-b. i run pain split so i'm not worn down as easily by a few earth powers. custap lead is pretty sweet in ubers, its what makes my best team tick. spdef toxic is most common though because it owns most arceus ghost although it has to be wary of the occasional flamethrower.
    Jaiho, Boltaway, badabing and 2 others like this.
  24. Crestfall

    Crestfall Aurum est potestas
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
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    Let's assume rocks are already out so arceus comes in -12. Can SpD forry come in on a CM and win? What does +1 focus do on this forry set from 252 arc. Im on phone so cant calc :(

    But yes custap lead in gen5 ubers was the shit.
  25. george182

    george182

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2009
    Messages:
    506
    I'll just fill in some gaps for early gen4. It always ran max defence and would hold either shed shell or leftovers. I know some people ran macho brace, but I'm not sure how popular that was. It typically only had one form of entry hazards per set (either stealth rocks, spikes or toxic spikes) and people never ran spikes + toxic spikes together. Most commonly used was spikes. It always had rapid spin and then two of three filler moves: gyro ball, explosion and earthquake. The first two help it check stuff, while the latter hurts its most popular switch ins, heatran and magnezone. It wasn't until the banning of garchomp and the introduction of platinum that things changed.

    People weren't willing to sacrifice a whole pokemon dedicated to entry hazards at this time, which the sp.def set with spikes, toxic spikes, rapid spin and payback essentially is. With a max defense set it could also whittle down physical attackers with neutral attacks, making the gyro ball - earthquake combo attractive.

    I think forretress was the first dedicated physical wall to become popular with a sp.def spread and kind of started off that trend. As bkc said it helped it beat rotom forms, it also helped it set up on latias who was a big threat at the time.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2014

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