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All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Houndoom

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. meteor64

    meteor64

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    Perhaps we should try and imagine what the GSC to DPP metas would be like if Chansey/Blissey never suffered the drastic Sp. Atk drop that they did.
  2. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    GSC would be pretty different. Blissey still wouldn't be able to touch Snorlax (no Special STAB would hurt in spite of base 130 Special Attack), though it would be a bit tougher to set up Belly Drums against. Moreover, Vaporeon definitely wouldn't be able to set up on it, mixed attackers like Tyranitar and Machamp would have a much tougher time switching in, and defensive Pokemon with Special weaknesses such as Zapdos and Suicune would no longer be able to stall it.
  3. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    I met a chick at a bar that really looked like Jynx once. I think it was a chick... Either way, bitch stole my Skittles ;-;

    On topic! Jynx here was a solid OU back in RBY. The next 2 gens were spent shuffling around in BL before plummeting down to NU for DPP. What changes to the metagames brought on this downfall, and what were Jynx's best sets and niches throughout the generations?
  4. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    In RBY it is the ultimate lead, more or less. It is slower than Gengar, yes, but unlike Gengar it can stay in to put Alakazam to sleep and actually threaten to hurt things with its attacks. One thing that's extra notable about it is that after it puts the foe's Sleep Absorber to sleep, if the opponent's next answer to Jynx is Chansey, Chansey only 5HKOs with Thunderbolt, giving Jynx a good chance to Freeze it for the 2-for-1. Jynx can be geared specifically for freezing Chansey with Ice Beam + Rest, but this ignores Jynx's massively powerful Blizzard, which is the main reason people feel compelled to switch in Chansey to begin with.

    In GSC Jynx's frailty becomes apparent in a metagame where everything can take a hit. At the very least it can put something to sleep that isn't a Sleep Talking Zapdos, and combined with Ice Beam + Psychic it is still kind of difficult to deal with if you don't have a Sleep Talking Water, Snorlax, or Raikou. Of course, if Sleep Trapping is allowed, Jynx can be a top threat with LK + Mean Look. Add Nightmare and you can beat pretty much whatever you want, just as long as you aren't dealing with a bunch of lucky early wakes! Jynx's allure as a Sleep Trapper as opposed to, say, Gengar or Misdreavus is its ability to use STAB Ice Beam to beat Sleep Talk Zapdos, who can frequently be teams' only Sleep Talker.
  5. Crystal_

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    The good thing about Jynx in rby is that, although it's very frail, no physical pokemon will switch into it due to STAB blizzard. And the stuff that can easily wall Jynx's special moves (Chansey/Starmie) cannot ko a healthy jynx very quickly, thus giving Jynx the opportunity to score a freeze against unpara'd Chansey/Starmie before going down. (I think it's around 40% chance overall against Chansey and around 35% against Starmie, factoring on a fresh Jynx).

    The other good thing is that Jynx walls Exeggutor, who is used in almost every team. Of course, Jynx is not like Snorlax or Tauros and can't abuse free swicthes by dealing over 30% to whatever may come in, and Jynx is completely walled by para'd Starmie/Chansey, but if you happen to wear down opposing Exeggutor via Snorlax, Rhydon or whatever before your Jynx faints to Exeggutor hits (without suffering from double switches either), that's that. At least you ensure Egg isn't threatening your Chansey or something more useful than jynx with its explosion.
  6. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    Slowbro here bounced around a bit, from OU to UU to BL to UU again. While it was only OU for RBY, it continued to have small niches that kept it viable each generation. So, what were it's best roles, sets, counters, etc. throughout history?
  7. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Slowbro is good in RBY because of Amnesia. It's basically built perfectly for it, having a Psychic resistance to set up on stuff like Alakazam, a hefty Defense stat so that you don't need to worry about Amnesia not pumping that up, and a good STAB in Surf that hits a good portion of the tier for neutral damage. Unfortunately, it's really slow (which Thunder Wave mitigates to a certain extent, but still), relies on Rest for recovery, and is done no favors by RBY's setup-unfriendly crit mechanics. Still, it's a good Pokemon that can be scary as hell in a late-game sweeping position.

    As for GSC, Slowbro's history there is... interesting. Once upon a time, it was OU, no doubt due in part to the fascination for Growlbro held by Celia/Bob/whatever his name really was. However, nowadays, Slowbro is really just too... slow to be very useful. Thunder Wave support is real nice, but outside of that Slowbro is a poor man's bulky water that is outsped by Marowak and can't counter Tyranitar because of the Crunch weakness. So it's not really a very good bulky water at all. And if you want paralysis support + Growl for Curselax, just use Miltank, at least that gets instant recovery and Heal Bell support. Slowbro does get Reflect, but that just isn't enough to warrant it a teamslot over other stuff. Sorry Bro :(. That being said, this thing is a monster in GSC UU. It can wall pretty much whatever it wants, has enough Special Attack to actually hurt things, and is basically the best at forcing things to take Thunder Waves in a metagame that really hates dealing with paralysis. It's definitely suspect in UU.

    As for ADV, as far as I'm aware it is, again, kind of a poor man's bulky water, only this time it gets Calm Mind. Not sure why anybody would use it instead of Suicune unless they wanted to gimmick. Maybe to have STAB Psychic to get past Gyarados and OHKO Gengar? Maybe to get Thunder Wave to hit Zapdos with a CM-boosted Surf before it can be hit in return by a Thunderbolt? I know, I'm reaching, but I seriously don't see why Slowbro would be preferred when it's basically a slower, worse Suicune with a Crunch weakness.
  8. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    Badass looking in every gen, Nidoking was only OU for one, GSC. For the other generations, he remained a solid option in UU. So, what held this guy back in all of the other generations, and what made him a star in GSC? As always, discuss this Pokemon's best sets, roles, and niches throughout the generations~
  9. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Nidoking is mediocre in RBY because of his weaknesses and his remarkably average stats across the board. It has a nice attacking movepool with BoltBeam and STAB Earthquake, but that doesn't make up for its numerous shortcomings. However, he does get a couple of cool toys outside of the RBY metagame proper. In Stadium, Focus Energy stops being bugged, so Nidoking can use that to finally abuse his solid attacking coverage to a certain extent, although he still suffers mightily from weaknesses to Psychic, Ice, and Ground. Jolteon is probably the better Focus Energy abuser with fewer weaknesses and better stats, although Nidoking beats it head-on and can set up against it. In Tradebacks, he gets Amnesia, which is kind of cool for pumping up that BoltBeam coverage and letting him maybe tank a Psychic or two, but it's kind of underwhelming when other Amnesia abusers like Hypno are out there. He also gets Lovely Kiss, which is probably better than Amnesia, although it is still limited by the fact that it is tough to find a time to switch him in to put something to sleep. Overall, Stadium sans Tradebacks is likely where RBY Nidoking shines best. Outside of that he just can't find a time to switch in and do damage, and when he does he's underwhelming and would often best be replaced by something else.

    In GSC, a few things happened. First is Lovely Kiss, and this is the main thing that launched Nidoking over the edge. However, that's not all. The metagame slowed down considerably, so Nidoking's Base 85 Speed went from mediocre to pretty damn good. Psychics became a lot less prevalent and those that remained became a lot more afraid of Nido's Super-Effective coverage because of the Special split. Nidoking runs roughly the same set it did in RBY: EQ, Thunder(bolt), Ice Beam, and Lovely Kiss over whatever filler it was using in RBY. Nidoking is one of the main reasons to use Hidden Power on your Raikou or to use attacking moves in general; this thing can tear teams apart if they just let it keep hitting things without being hit back. It's probably the most reliable pure attacker in GSC.
  10. Crystal_

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    Also noteworthy are Nidoking's immunities to both Toxic and Thunder Wave in GSC, giving it some longevity into teams lacking a heal bell user. Its electric-type immunity makes it a decent electric-type check; it's at least useful for pivoting against Zapdos so that Snorlax doesn't have to take a STAB Thunder in the switch-in. Nidoking is sometimes used in stall teams for this reason, it helps Snorlax cover electric-types, while adding some necessary offense to the team. Nidoking actually boasts a very good longevity if you don't have to deal with spikes or can spin them, although, unfortunately, it doesn't come close to hit as hard as Marowak with physical attacks, but its higher longetivity and better coverage make up for that.
  11. Borat

    Borat

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    At least pound for pound, Rhydon hits things harder than Nidoking does. STAB EQ from Rhydon is doing as much as SE attacks from Nido's special side give or take. LK is definitely what puts Nidoking a step above the other offensive grounds though.

    Having said that, I think the drive behind HP electric is pretty evenly spread amongst marowak, nidoking, exeggutor, steelix, and rhydon. Nidoking definitely isn't anymore a "main reason" than say marowak.
  12. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    Persian here has had a hard fall from it's glory days in RBY. Once OU, it dropped to UU for the next gens before settling down in NU for DPP. How did the metagame change to bring down this former threat, and what were its best sets and roles throughout the generations?
  13. Dre89

    Dre89

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    Persian is starting to become more relevant again in RBY now as a stall breaker now that reflect and amnesia users are running around everywhere.
  14. shrapn3l

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    in adv uu persian is one of the fastest things in the tier so a lot of things that rock a salac berry sometimes use enough speed to outspeed persian after +1 (more likely they will just try to outspeed scyther and manectric though). however, nobody really uses it. if you are using any normal type aside from granbull, clefable, or kangaskhan it's as a gimmick. the only set worth running is double-edge/hp ground or fighting or iron tail/shadow ball/hypnosis or fake out. hypnosis and fake out are both sort of interesting moves that make persian "unique"-ish but stantler also gets hypnosis and has a better movepool (earthquake, calm mind, special attacks) and intimidate, and kangaskhan, the heavy mama whose adv uu reputation precedes her, gets fake out. persian is absolutely worthless without choice band. it's probably the worst normal type in the tier but its speed makes it somewhat relevant
  15. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    Not only Slash, but STABed Hyper Beam, Critical Hit mechanics and no Steel Types are what make Persian that good in RBY.

    In GSC, Persian is useless, even in UU. It does learn Hypnosis now, but it can't do much after that, as its offenses are crap, and it can't even take hits as its defenses are even worse. After Hypnosis, I think the best it can do is Screech to force a switch and try to paralyze what is coming with Body Slam/Thunder/Zap Cannon. And of course, you can always Curse with Pokémon, but other Pokémon do it better even in UU.
  16. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    After bouncing around from UU to BL to UU again, Tentacruel finally made a name for itself in DPP OU. What changes to the metagame finally gave this Pokemon its chance to shine, and what were its best sets, roles, and niches throughout the generations?
  17. shrapn3l

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    swords dance tentacruel is incredible in ADV UU. it has great speed for the tier, its special defense is excellent, so is its offensive coverage, and there are plenty of popular weak special attackers to set up on. tentacruel is probably the best omastar counter in the game, since it takes shit from omastars attacks, sets up on it, hydro pump gets a boost from rain dance, and it can potentially spin away spikes. many other water types like blastoise and walrein often forego attacks like body slam, earthquake, and roar necessary to keep tentacruel from setting up and instead implement things like restalk and toxic to last longer since they have enough things to cover as it is, or to be more generally threatening. things like vileplume, altaria, and ninetales are also potential setup fodder. i have always been of the mindset that the only truly good counters for tentacruel are quagsire and cursing muk. if you are confident you can keep spikes out of play, shedinja is also fine. however, tentacruel could potentially have giga drain, hp ground, or thief as its last move over substitute or rapid spin. a number of other pokemon can do the job but they're all shaky. the next best thing is probably a hypno with the help of its support movepool, especially reflect and thunder wave. in a pinch pokemon like feraligatr, misdreavus, and kangaskhan can force it out and live with the damage. the problem is that tentacruel often comes paired with spikes and if it's played cautiously and/or lands an early poison or two your counters start looking much less solid. this guy is really just a terror. very difficult to cover (many neglect to do so), very easy to set up, can turn games around quickly because it's fast and can set up on a dime. really a nuisance to stall teams.
  18. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Its also a very underrated gsc ou threat, with the subSD set.
    in DP it was at first used as a good mixape counter (Obi popularized it) that can set up toxic spikes and spin
  19. Crystal_

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    Tentacruel is a poor man's Cloyster in RBY in the sense that is also walled by Starmie and to an extent Alakazam (and needs luck against chansey), while not sharing most of cloyster's good points like walling snorlax, impressive defense, explosion and stab blizzard (although tenta's impressive spc stat sorta makes up for that). In addition, Psychic and Earthquake weakness make Tentacruel a pretty bad Pokemon in OU.

    In gsc tenta is one of the forgotten threats, and can be pretty dangerous with a sd sub set. With the amount of thunder electics, non-eq machamps, vaps and the like running around, tenta definitely has some potential left. Another underlooked role that tenta can fulfill is the role of a spinner, and unlike starmie, it is immune to toxic and resists hp bug while resisting cloyster's surf as well. Still, rapid spin completely limits tentacruel. Not only SD, but also Haze is incompatible with RS which means that you can't use it as a vap counter either.
  20. Dre89

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    Tenta's biggest draw in RBY is that he's the joint fastest wrapper in the game (if you include fire spin, but he counters those pokemon anyway).

    What this means is that he's the best pokemon in the game to come in on wrappers and threaten wrap in return. It's an interesting option because the standard wrap-counters can't threaten wrap in return and thus don't give you the same control that tentacruel can. That's really the only thing he has to justify a team slot over other pokemon.
  21. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Technically, if you count Fire Spin, Rapidash is the sole fastest trapper.

    Also Tenta easily counters ST Vap in GSC, but I think AA Vap ends up beating it out.
  22. Borat

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    Tenta as a spinner in GSC isn't all flowers and vaginas, it's stuck in retard mode against gengar.
  23. Crystal_

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    It's a real shame tenta can't use Haze and Spin in the same moveset either. Toxic-immune spin + vap counter + non eq machamp counter would make for an interesting combiantion.
    Surf still doing over 1/3 to Gengar though.
  24. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    From OU to BL to UU to NU, Golem had a very slow and steady fall from grace. What changes in the metagame brought on this decline, and what were its best sets, roles, and niches throughout history?
  25. magic9mushroom

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    In RBY, its main uses are to wall Zapdos, and to switch into Hyper Beams and Explosions. It also packs an Explosion of its own, giving it some distinction from Rhydon. Its classic set is Earthquake/Rock Slide/Body Slam/Explosion.

    Switching into Hyper Beam is less relevant in GSC, since it's no longer as useful a finishing move, and Rest becomes a more viable alternative to Explosion as well. If that wasn't enough, the Steel type was introduced, which tends to overshadow Rock as a defensive type.

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