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All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Jirachi

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Curse is P2's traditional GSC set, but my opinion is that it's really just an extra, lesser Snorlax if you use it that way (read: totally redundant). It does beat Lax in a Curse war, though, so it has that going for it.

    The set I use, though, foregoes Curse for Thunder Wave (and Double-Edge over Return as the STAB, it hits most things surprisingly hard). With Double-Edge, Ice Beam, Twave, and Recover, P2 functions kinda like a mixed wall, mixed attacker, and support mon all in one. Double-Edge is a possible 3HKO on Raikou and possible 4HKO on Snorlax, and Ice Beam 3HKOs Zapdos without recoil. Without those key mons switching in all day, Porygon2 spreads status way more reliably than other status-centric mons.

    Its general tankiness and access to Recover means it can safely tank common threats on offensive teams such as Steelix, Gengar, and Exeggutor, so it gets a bunch of opportunities to come in and cripple the opposing team. Not a whole lot outright forces it out, either, making it almost Zapdos-esque in its ability to just stay in on shit. That said, all these switch-in opportunities can always just... explode on Porygon2, especially as its ability to threaten most of its switch-in targets is limited (e.g., neutral Ice Beam on Steelix and Gengar is no more than a 4HKO). Thus, more often than not, it ends up going 1-for-1. That's okay, though, because P2 is not a specific wall for anything, just a general tank, so you're wasting one of their wallbreakers by baiting them into Exploding on P2.

    Porygon2 doesn't match up as well against more defensive teams, where Spikers, Suicune, and Miltank are more likely to be present to set up on, neutralize, and undo paralysis spread by Porygon2, respectively. However, P2 still functions well against defensive teams, as Recover ensures it isn't trivial to just wear it down through attrition, it still gets plenty of opportunities to switch in, Twave can still make life awkward for Suicune and Spikers, Miltank will run out of Heal Bells eventually, and if all else fails, P2 can go for the freeze with Ice Beam.

    Porygon2's biggest problem, though, is its weakness to status. It doesn't want to be paralyzed and possibly not get that key Recover off, and it doesn't want to take a Toxic and be forced into Recover loops all day. It's kinda slow and juuuust tanky enough to deal with most things, so status really screws with how effective it can be. What's more, you probably aren't adding a Heal Beller on top of a P2 team, as you already have two Normal-types on your team (P2 and the mandatory Snorlax). In fact, I think I lied, the real worst thing about Porygon2 is that its typing makes it difficult to squeeze on a team without feeling like you're skimping on defensive synergy.
  2. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Doesn't Dugtrio 3HKO it, though? I seem to recall running the numbers on that a while back.

    I recall seeing a Starf Berry + Recycle set in the ADV analysis; is that any good in practice?
  3. MoxieInfinite

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    Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Porygon2: 160-189 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, using Smogon's Sharpen set (252/92+)

    i swear, people are unable to calc themselves these days
  4. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    I DID calc it, as I said. But that didn't seem to jive with what BKC said, and I'm not used to ADV so I thought I might have gotten it wrong.
  5. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Well the idea is you bring P2 in when Duggy is locked into HP Bug or Aerial Ace. You obviously don't want to sit there trying to set up on Earthquakes.
  6. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Okay. And your opinion of the Recycle set?
  7. meteor64

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    Why p2 is good in Adv-
    -Trace. Oh, Trace. P2 is pretty much the only OU viable mon to get Trace (unless you think Gard is viable) and it has myriad uses for it-
    --Most importantly, trapping Dugtrio. Dugtrio provides tons of utility to your opponent by merely existing and being able to reliably remove him is beautiful. Teams making use of CM/DDtar/Hera love this. Sharpen is a gimmick that can actually work, you need Hera/Cele on your team to do it though (you probably have them anyway but its worth mentioning).
    --Against teams with Bliss/Cele/Star you can switch into Toxics and such much more freely.
    --Tracing Flygon's levitate is beautiful, as is Jolt's Volt Absorb. These mons cannot touch you. Vap has to have Toxic to do anything (not that we see vap)
    --Pressure can be good, although P2 doesn't do an awful lot to force Pressure users out.
    --Likewise catching the odd Serene Grace/Thick Fat/Immunity are all beneficial to P2 as it lends itself to those abilities nicely. Considering what you're switching in on to get those abilities though, its not gonna happen often but when it does it's nice.
    -Real nice all round physical tank. What with Recover and general lack of weaknesses and good bulk on both sides of the spectrum. Its almost like a bulky water that can also deal with Gyarados (it is a duck after all). Has troubles with CB/Mixmence, Metagross and obviously Heracross but on the whole can pull its weight outside of its Tracing niches.
    -True Boltbeam. If it missed out on one of them it would suck majorly. It's not Gengar.
    -One of the best TWavers. Especially since both Toxic and TWave are equally viable on it, and they cover totally different options, so it can be awkward to switch into until you know which it's running.

    -downsides-

    -Really limited viable movepool. You have really two sets to choose from, and 99% of the time you're picking the first one and 1% of the time you fancy being an asshole. I guess Psychic could be kinda funny but its super gimmick so IMO just use Boltbeam+Status.
    -Pretty meh power unless you're using Sharpen. It's not the worst thing ever but sometimes P2s damage output can be pretty underwhelming. Your attacks are for scaring off Dragons and Fliers. And slaughtering Duggy.
    -Leading on from the last point, P2 can slow down the momentum of your team. P2s attacks don't threaten an awful lot and once they know which status you're running they've probably got a hard counter ready to switch into him. A lot of the time they don't even need to know, Lax/Forre/Bliss is going to suck up anything you do. In these matchups you'll probably feel like P2 is more of a liability than an asset since you'll likely need him to check something like a Mence but get bogged down into recovering everytime you come in and end up just giving your opponent free pressure. The more your team relies on P2 to check things, more likely the worse it'll be.
    -Trace doesn't let it deal with Magneton, which sucks. Unless you're running some crazy specially defensive HP ground set (just use dugtrio lol). On a related note, Tracing Intimidate doesn't actually do anything, which is a shame because he's already a great Mence/Gyara check.

    Recycle is not a viable set. Theres just too many ways for it to go wrong, and theres not really anything stopping your opponent from just Toxicing you.


    Also the EVs on the analysis need changing bad, I don't think anyone goes under Bold 192 Def anymore.
    McMeghan likes this.
  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    What makes this different from the Sharpen set? Aren't they both, as you say, specifically tailored to "be an arsehole" to people using Dugtrio?

    (Serious question. I don't understand this stuff.)
  9. McMeghan

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    From personnal experience, I'd value the Sharpen set over the Recycle set for these reasons:
    • You still have Leftovers, which is vital under Sandstorm to give Porygon2 the bulk it needs to check some Pokemon/not be pressued whenever you'll send it on the field.
    • With Sharpen, you clearly know where you're going, which means that given the right situation against a team without Dugtrio, you can still try to pull off a sweep. Starf Recycle would be too random for my tastes in a Dugtrio-less game.
  10. meteor64

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    Recycle is begging for crits. With Sharpen you can work around them because you're not required to hang around 25% as much, but with Recycle it poses a real problem. You also lose leftovers. And outside of Dugtrio you don't get any opportunities to actually set up with it because you basically hand your opponent the power to set you up nice and cosily for you, which they're obviously not going to do. With Sharpen you can at least try to threaten things with it.
  11. george182

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    I've always been a huge p2 fan in dpp, it's not a pokemon you can build a team around, it's not good enough for that. But the way it uses trace to check such a unique combination of OU powerhouses like gyarados, heatran, flygon and jolteon makes it an excellent pokemon to consider when finishing off a team. Knowing the niche of pokemon like p2 can stop you from throwing a great team concept in the trash and that's why I love it.

    I find it's best used on offensive teams in the same place you might put a choice scarfer, checking various threats but also providing team support with t-wave. Just make sure the rest of your team can handle stall.

    It's usage has drastically declined since the banning of salamence, but it still has a use in OU plugging unique holes that no other polygon could!
    finally likes this.
  12. Jellicent

    Jellicent
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    A solid OU from GSC to DPP, Suicune is probably best remembered for its prowess in ADV. Certainly a major threat in all three gens, what were this titan's best sets, roles, niches, teammates, and counters? Everything about Suicune is on the table this week.
  13. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer ['bedʃɪbɛːɐ]
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    THE wall in gsc. Extremely hard to take this thing down. The only things that can ohko it unboosted are Snorlax and Golem, both when blowing up. Sad thing is that besides stalling this thing can't really do alot offensively. Roar and Resttalk is/are the best (or at least the most used) set(s). Spikes are kinda mandatory to make this thing work, because it's really good at wrecking up residual damage. Attack wise it is really a lackluster though, its Hydro Pumps don't do good enough damage to make it work as an attacker, which is why it is hugely outclassed in this by Vaporeon. There are a couple of more gimmicky options like Magic coat and Counter, Curse, etc, even though those can't make it work very well offensively either.

    Calm Mind was a blessing for Suicune and its popularity in adv just proves that. I don't know really much about adv, but it's obvious that Suicune is a Top 3 mon there.
  14. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Suicune is not currently in vogue in GSC, but it was mega-popular in the "nothing but stall" era and it's still super strong as a "don't lose to random crap free" card.

    Ironically, the classic Roar set is probably the best non-last-Poke Vap counter worth using, but I think the emergence of Vap in recent GSC actually decreased Suicune's usage because Vap and Suicune compete for the same teamslot, and the bulky water that can actually set up and sweep is just more attractive.

    I'd say the best no-nonsense Suicune set right now is the Sleep Talk set:

    [​IMG]
    Suicune @ Leftovers
    -Surf
    -Rest
    -Sleep Talk
    -Toxic/Ice Beam

    Suicune is already tough for any mixed attacker to break; with Sleep Talk, it's constantly available and close to impossible for a mixed attacker to break. The fourth move is the flexible slot. Toxic is important for preventing Snorlax from having free setup, for keeping Cloyster out of your face, nailing Roar Raikou, and for, at the very least, inconveniencing random switch-ins because Suicune can't actually hurt anything that isn't weak to its moves. However, Ice Beam ensures you don't get fatally bad Sleep Talks versus Marowak/Nidoking, keeps Zapdos out of your face, might freeze something (!), and does more to immediately threaten Dragonite and Exeggutor, which is nice for getting them to actually stay out instead of possibly absorbing Toxics to go for Thunders/Giga Drains/what have you. It really depends what you prefer and what works better for your team. I'm personally partial to Toxic.

    Of course, this set's main weakness is it doesn't check everything the way you might classically expect Suicune to. For example, without Roar, Vaporeon and Tentacruel both set up on it rather than being checked, as does Curselax (Toxic is supposed to help a bit on this one), and you can't really abuse Spikes as nicely (although I never saw it as the greatest RoarSpikes mon anyway). However, Sleep Talk prevents Suicune from being spread too thin and just makes it a total beast at what it's supposed to do, whereas Roar sets only really hardwall Vap because everything else can abuse the Rest cycle to beat it. You could try to put Roar on the Sleep Talk set, but I don't really like it. Can't really articulate why, though, it just doesn't feel right, and I could very well just be irrationally closed-minded about it.

    Of course, Suicune doesn't just have to be a boring lump. Access to Mirror Coat means it can stay in on and even KO the Electrics that otherwise force it out. It's one of the more expected surprises in GSC, so a good player should always scout for MC or ensure Cune is in OHKO range before Thundering away, but even the best players don't always do what they should, so it can still catch people off guard. At best, it KOs an Electric for you, and at worst, it still helps a team that otherwise struggles with Electrics by allowing Lax to come in on fewer Thunders. There's also the old Curse Suicune gimmick, which was once one a popular Suicune gimmick. The aim with Curse Suicune is to set up Curses to actually force both Electrics to Thunder lest they just let you get to +6, which is when you MC them and laugh maniacally. The last move should be Roar to keep Lax from just setting up alongside you. Surf isn't needed, as no Normal resist (barring Gengar, who's in a similar pickle as Electrics anyway) is switching in on Cune until the jig is up (not to mention that Roar already prevents all but Steelix from Phazing +1 Cune, and you could always drop Cune's speed to outslow Lix at +1), whereas I wouldn't use Rest on a Suicune without Surf, as it no longer functions very well as a wall if it can't force the Grounds out.
    Zebraiken, McMeghan and MoxieInfinite like this.
  15. Typhlito

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    Suicune was always a force to be reckoned with in any gen. It walls so many physical pokemon and can potentially set up on their face with calm mind. Jorgen mentioned a lot of the good points since not a ton has changed with it throughout the gens but vaporeon has always been a thorn on its side since even suicune at +6 will do pitiful damage if it lacks toxic (which doesnt really work from gen 4 and on because of heal bell) or hp electric.

    Its bland (as far as regular water pokemon moves go) offensive movepool and a just decent enough sp. atk holds its offensive sets back a bit but it can create many opportunities to set up so that doesn't matter as much. As for its defensive sets, it would have loved getting recover even though rest talk gets the job done. Not being able to heal consistently like milotic can somewhat hurts it and makes it prone to being worn down. These drawbacks are pretty minor when you look at its good points though. Its just such a good pokemon that teams have to prepare for.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  16. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Not quite true. Snorlax also has a chance of OHKO with Double-Edge after Drumming to 999 Attack.

    I can articulate it just fine: Suicune is rather fast, so if you Sleep Talk Roar, it'll fail most of the time (in GSC, Roar is coded to not work if you go first).
  17. Bedschibaer

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    Yea that's why i said unboosted. With stat boosts there are a couple of things that can ohko Suicune. +1 Muk explosion, Machamp (forgot how many boosts he needs), +1 Jolteon Thunder also has a chance to one shot, not to mention all the possible growthpass recievers.
  18. magic9mushroom

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    Yeah, I derped. Sorry.
  19. george182

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    DPP:

    So early dpp the main Suicune set was probably Crocune

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Bold
    252 hp, 252 def, 4 sp.def
    - Calm Mind
    - Surf
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    A terrifying set to face if you don't have a counter because it's so bulky and water is a great mono attacking type. But as the metagame progressed people starting being more prepared for this set and would just set up on it with things like Breloom, Gyarados and Salamence. It has a tendency to be a bit of a momentum killer when it can't sweep. During the Latias era offensive Suicune became the most popular set and it remains so.

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Timid
    4 hp, 252 speed, 252 sp.atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Hydro Pump / Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    Life orb was popular to being with, but leftovers was the main choice as it helped disguise the set. Once Latias was banned, Suicune became more valuable defensively for checking things like Gyrados and Heatran, so leftovers dominated it's item usage. The EV spread above is the standard choice, but people run a wide variety of EVs to get the required combination of speed, bulk and power for their team.

    Suicune has a few other viable sets such as restalk, roar and calm mind, roar but the above two are the most common ones.
    BKC likes this.
  20. Aerodactyl Legend

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    Pretty accurate. Some would probably think the offensive set became big in the post-Latias game, but the set was around for much longer.

    And remember before Crocune, there was the old CM Shuffle without Sleep Talk?
  21. McMeghan

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    Since nobody wrote a paragraph about ADV Cune, I'll do it.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Suicune is definitly one of the strongest Pokemon in ADV. So much that it definitly shapes and defines the metagame. With the introduction of Calm Mind, Suicune became an amazing wall with an excellent offensive presence, unlike its GSC counterpart. On top of that, the introduction of abilities gave Suicune Pressure, and he's one of the best abuser of it. Suicune doesn't have the biggest movepool, but it has enough tools at its disposition to beat its common counters with the right moveset, which makes it an even better Pokemon.

    Basically, Suicune lost its ability to wall kind of everything with the introduction of EVs distribution but on the other hand gained some sweeping aptitutes thanks to Calm Mind. I would say that there are two kinds of Suicune, and I'll explain why.

    • First group: the Calm Minders.
      • Suicune is one of the best (if not the best) Calm Minder of ADV. With its amazing defenses, it's really not that hard to use it and sweep teams. Suicune finds its way onto most teams and the only thing you have to watch out for is spikes pressure under sandstorm if you use a defensive set. What's even more amazing is that Suicune can run a defensive set or an offensive set and will almost always pull its job.
      • The defensive sets usually pack Calm Mind, Surf, Rest and one of Roar, Ice Beam or Sleep Talk. Roar in particular is probably the most used set and the one that has been around for the longest time. I remember there was a time once when running Suicune almost always gave you the upperhand. It's an incredible defensive pivot and a lot of its defensive checks have a hard time on the long run with Pressure to waste their precious Toxic (Blissey) or Leech Seed (Celebi) for example. Like Curselax, it's a really good Last-Mon Sweeper.
      • The offensive sets have more speed and special attack and thus sometimes run Hydro Pump instead of Surf. It's awful to face with Physical Offense thanks to its great natural bulk and its actually immense power with a single boost. Once again, Suicune has a lot of options going for it that let you beat its common checks and counters. Ice Beam, Subsitute, Roar, HP Grass, HP Electric, etc. Guessing the wrong moveset can sometimes cost you the game right away.

    • Second group: the dedicaced Walls.
      • While quite rare, Calm Mind-less Suicune do exist and despite their lack of offensive abilities, they are nonetheless incredibly tough to deal with.
      • Giving up on Calm Mind lets you run 4 moves that aim to support the team with Suicune amazing defensive abilities. The introduction of Sandstream and the spikes buff for example turn Suicune into one hell of a shuffler with a Surf/Sleep Talk/Roar moveset that lets you beat most physical set-uppers and unlike the Calm Mind set, they can't put you in a Rest Loop.
      • An incredibily underrated option on Suicune is Reflect. You usually have to give up Calm Mind to run it, but you can be sure that if you run a Reflect/Roar moveset alongside a Beller, you'll cockblock every Physical Offense in existence.
    All in all, Suicune is one of the best Pokemon in ADV and you should always take it into account when you teambuild, otherwise there are strong chances you might get 6-0'd by it, sometimes straight from turn 1 (happened to everyone at least once).
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
    cbt, Tomahawk, MoxieInfinite and 8 others like this.
  22. Aldaron

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    "The introduction of Sandstorm" did you mean stream? (note this isn't meant to be a grammar check or anything, legitimately curious if you meant sandstorm as some strategy like TSS was in GSC or you just meant sandstream)

    McMeghan

    no comment on the content, looks good to me
  23. McMeghan

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    Oh I meant Sandstream. Edited.
  24. Meteor 17

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    I'm surprised nobody has even touched on SubCM Suicune. I have pretty fond memories of forcing the switch, out-predicting people expecting a RestTalk or CroCune set, and setting up a free Calm Mind. This set in particular worked pretty well, hitting almost everything in the tier neutrally, and hard:

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Timid
    - Calm Mind
    - Substitute
    - Hydro Pump (Surf is normally more recommended, but I've always liked Hydro Pump.)
    - Ice Beam (HP Electric exists, but I've always synergized my teams enough to always have a check to Vaporeon)

    Pretty simple. People think "oh noes! Defense Suicune!" and switch, giving it a free substitute. It then gets a free Calm Mind, and it can now sweep quite easily and can afford to Substitute with Leftovers.
  25. BKC

    BKC
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    sub cm cune is alright. it has the same problems as the offensive set made worse due to weakening itself with sub (and even if you choose not to actually use it you still lack a coverage move), mainly the prominence of sand (god forbid they have abomasnow) and generally things that can revenge kill it. plus, it sometimes struggles to set up in the first place, making it usually not the best choice.

    restalk roar is amazing. snype once used a hilarious mirror coat set...
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