All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Miltank

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. sandshrewz

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    RBY

    Yeaaa Rhydon is great in RBY. It hard counters Zapdos and Zapdos is the reason why a Rock/Ground is needed. Jorgen did a great comparison of Golem and Rhydon here. Rhydon also did a pretty good job walling Snorlax too. Rhydon is also the reason why I run Surf on both Snorlax and my own Rhydon as bad as that might be lol >.> I just like to bait it out and Surf the Rhydon so that Zapdos can para everything and hopefully pave way for a sweep. It's an entirely solid Pokemon and Exeggutor comes in to force it out, which then lets Zapdos switch in, which then also attracts Rhydon. LOL. Rhydon forces switches quite well if you can play around with it. There are no Spikes or anything in RBY but the gradual damage you rack up is quite useful and yeaaa Body Slam para. Rhydon also doesn't mind getting Stun Spored since it's slow anyway. RBY is probably Rhydon's best generation.

    DPP

    I never knew it never had an analysis .______. Neither do I remember seeing it being used in UU. It's in NFE tier lol o.o Rock / Ground is no longer a good typing as it means that Rhydon is weak to Water, Grass, Ice, Fighting, Steel, Ground, all common types. It no longer has a place in UU despite its base 130 Attack. Base 40 Speed is also pretty terrible, even with Rock Polish. Even Aggron does this better. I have no idea how a Choice Band set would work well there though, but I doubt it'll be really good with solid checks to it such as Hitmontop, Slowbro etc being common in UU. Registeel and Steelix are better options for supporting the team with Stealth Rock etc too. Yea Rhydon is pretty non-existent in DPP I guess. I don't know how well it fares in DPP NU though.
  2. meteor64

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    Adv Rhydon has pretty much the best offensive typing in the game, a HUGE attack to go with it and incredible natural physical bulk. And thats about all it has going for it. The physical bulk is pretty much undermined by weaknesses to Meteor Mash, Earthquake and Brick Break, which on its own isn't catastrophic- why, Tyranitar is the best poke in the tier and it shares those vulnerabilities- however when you combine that with a complete lack of special bulk, weaknesses to Ice Beam, Surf and Hidden Power Grass and next to no speed, it becomes really really difficult to find a way to utilise him effectively. Defensively, Tyranitar has a very relevant Psychic immunity to exploit, very good bulk all round, easily surviving most unboosted STAB surfs, and the ability to outspeed the things that hit it hard by setting up with Dragon Dance. Rhydon has a Bug neutrality (irrelevant since Bug moves are invariably paired with Ground/Fighting) and an Electric immunity (Also irrelevant when Grass/Ice/Water coverage is on practically everything bar Roar Zap). Additionally, his terrible Speed means even if you switch in safely somehow, you're open to being 2HKOed more likely than not by the thing you switched in on, which basically means Rhdon can only really get in on things that are both-
    a) not able to 2HKO it
    b) OHKOed by Rhydon
    which essentially means theres one superior way to use Rhydon, and thats Band. Sub+3 attacks can work, but the reward isn't as great, if youre not using base 135 attack banded EQs then you might as well use TTar.

    Actually, lets address the real issue here. Why not use TTar? It has superior typing, movepool, stat distribution, and ability. That's basically everything about a pokemon. Banded TTar majoritively outclasses Rhydon in the one main thing it should be doing, and as far as Sub sets go, TTar pulls that off better too. Sure Rhydon gets Megahorn, but really HP Bug is all thats needed. So really the question is- how much do you value STAB EQ from 135 attack?
  3. Hemp Man

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    I blame Hidden Power for Rhydon's decline. That move was way too cheap, and made sure Rhydon couldn't counter Electrics anymore.
  4. Swamp-Rocket

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    The main reason why Rhydon has been declining in usage over time is that many people were unable to look past its very obvious flaws. Despite having an amzaing physical bulk as well as a great Attack stat all backed up by an excellent offensive typing, but Rhydon has flaws that are really easy to exploit. In RBY this wasn't that big of a deal because Rhydon (and Golem) were the only counters to Zapdos and all the Psychics couldn't switch into Rhydon's Earthquake. The only Water or Grass types were Starmie, Slowbro, and Exeggutor.

    After that, Hidden Power happened and Rhydon couldn't really counter Electrics without fear of getting smacked by a Hidden Power Grass. Though most Electric carried it just for him... he still had the merit of having really nice physical bulk. Tyranitar was also a superior Rock type in most cases. But then in RSE it got really unfortunate. With the release of Swampert, everything and their mother was running Hidden Power Grass, which of course could OHKO good old Rhydon. Combined with the fact that bulky waters were super common in OU Rhydon was pretty unfortunate. Tyranitar was better than Rhydon by a long shot thanks to Sandstream, and Aerodactyl got a shot at the big leagues in this generation, eclipsing Rhydon. Then it evolved into Rhyperior - but Rhyperior was honestly a pretty minor improvement to Rhydon, so it still had the same problems, so Rhyperior ended up being UU and then Rhydon was forcefully doomed into NU.

    No matter what kind of power it had people weren't willing to risk using its many weaknesses and usually turned to a different Pokemon like Tyranitar for their job. Once it got out of there, it evolved.

    EDIT: I know nothing about GSC lol
  5. Jorgen

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    In GSC Electrics are far from running Hidden Power solely for Rhydon. I mean Rhydon is a pretty big reason, but Nidoking, Marowak, and Steelix are better reasons to carry Hidden Power on your Zapdos or Raikou.
  6. meteor64

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    Yeah, not to mention HP Ice is way more preferred than Water/Grass in GSC. If you have Grass its for Quag and Quag alone, which is hardly a big league threat.
  7. Jellicent

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    Sorry this last one stretched on a bit. Lots of last minute Smog work >.>

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    D'aww, Chansey :3

    Chansey here was OU for RBY, but dropped down after she got an evolution that completely outclassed her. I figured it'd be fun to look at not only how Chansey fared in RBY, but how she handled the lower tiers in the later gens. Best roles, sets, niches, etc.; you guys know the drill~
  8. Jorgen

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    Chansey is a weird one because it's not really relevant after RBY. In RBY, though, it's obviously great. It's the epitome of defense, having enough Special Attack to ward off most attackers with BoltBeam weaknesses and of course the ubiquitous Thunder Wave. It could also stall with Reflect or surprise a Snorlax/Tauros with Counter, forcing them to check first with Earthquake (uncounterable in RBY). It defines the metagame and is the reason why less reliable Physical Pokes are considered "offensive" whereas otherwise-scary Special Pokes like Starmie are totally shut down and considered "defensive".

    In GSC UU, it was actually BL for the longest time, mostly because it was one of few NFEs that people could picture using in UU, and back in the day nobody liked the idea of using NFEs in lower tiers (the prevailing argument being "I don't want to play mini-OU"). When it is allowed, though, Chansey is a pretty good tank and staller. It gets access to Heal Bell, too, but given that GSC UU is faster-paced than GSC OU and the fact that Chansey misses out on half of its supporting movepool with Heal Bell, it's ill-advised as Chansey becomes far too setup-foddery. A set with Reflect and Thunder Wave might be your best bet.
  9. Captain Evil

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    Perhaps it is not a relevant observation, but Chansey (and Blissey, by extension) suffered immensely from the way the Special stat was split in the later generations. Still as defensively solid as ever, but sorely lacking offensive presence.
  10. meteor64

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    Perhaps we should try and imagine what the GSC to DPP metas would be like if Chansey/Blissey never suffered the drastic Sp. Atk drop that they did.
  11. Jorgen

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    GSC would be pretty different. Blissey still wouldn't be able to touch Snorlax (no Special STAB would hurt in spite of base 130 Special Attack), though it would be a bit tougher to set up Belly Drums against. Moreover, Vaporeon definitely wouldn't be able to set up on it, mixed attackers like Tyranitar and Machamp would have a much tougher time switching in, and defensive Pokemon with Special weaknesses such as Zapdos and Suicune would no longer be able to stall it.
  12. Jellicent

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    I met a chick at a bar that really looked like Jynx once. I think it was a chick... Either way, bitch stole my Skittles ;-;

    On topic! Jynx here was a solid OU back in RBY. The next 2 gens were spent shuffling around in BL before plummeting down to NU for DPP. What changes to the metagames brought on this downfall, and what were Jynx's best sets and niches throughout the generations?
  13. Jorgen

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    In RBY it is the ultimate lead, more or less. It is slower than Gengar, yes, but unlike Gengar it can stay in to put Alakazam to sleep and actually threaten to hurt things with its attacks. One thing that's extra notable about it is that after it puts the foe's Sleep Absorber to sleep, if the opponent's next answer to Jynx is Chansey, Chansey only 5HKOs with Thunderbolt, giving Jynx a good chance to Freeze it for the 2-for-1. Jynx can be geared specifically for freezing Chansey with Ice Beam + Rest, but this ignores Jynx's massively powerful Blizzard, which is the main reason people feel compelled to switch in Chansey to begin with.

    In GSC Jynx's frailty becomes apparent in a metagame where everything can take a hit. At the very least it can put something to sleep that isn't a Sleep Talking Zapdos, and combined with Ice Beam + Psychic it is still kind of difficult to deal with if you don't have a Sleep Talking Water, Snorlax, or Raikou. Of course, if Sleep Trapping is allowed, Jynx can be a top threat with LK + Mean Look. Add Nightmare and you can beat pretty much whatever you want, just as long as you aren't dealing with a bunch of lucky early wakes! Jynx's allure as a Sleep Trapper as opposed to, say, Gengar or Misdreavus is its ability to use STAB Ice Beam to beat Sleep Talk Zapdos, who can frequently be teams' only Sleep Talker.
  14. Captain Evil

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    Jynx is rather easily walled and very frail on the physical side. I see no other reason to use Jynx in RBY than the quick Lovely Kiss. Then again, it is surely a good Special attacker against anything that can't take a Blizzard or a Psychic properly, which unfortunately for Jynx includes a significant amount of the OU metagame.

    What about answering Jynx with another odd OU of similar historical fate, Lapras?
  15. Crystal_

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    The good thing about Jynx in rby is that, although it's very frail, no physical pokemon will switch into it due to STAB blizzard. And the stuff that can easily wall Jynx's special moves (Chansey/Starmie) cannot ko a healthy jynx very quickly, thus giving Jynx the opportunity to score a freeze against unpara'd Chansey/Starmie before going down. (I think it's around 40% chance overall against Chansey and around 35% against Starmie, factoring on a fresh Jynx).

    The other good thing is that Jynx walls Exeggutor, who is used in almost every team. Of course, Jynx is not like Snorlax or Tauros and can't abuse free swicthes by dealing over 30% to whatever may come in, and Jynx is completely walled by para'd Starmie/Chansey, but if you happen to wear down opposing Exeggutor via Snorlax, Rhydon or whatever before your Jynx faints to Exeggutor hits (without suffering from double switches either), that's that. At least you ensure Egg isn't threatening your Chansey or something more useful than jynx with its explosion.
  16. Jellicent

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    Slowbro here bounced around a bit, from OU to UU to BL to UU again. While it was only OU for RBY, it continued to have small niches that kept it viable each generation. So, what were it's best roles, sets, counters, etc. throughout history?
  17. Jorgen

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    Slowbro is good in RBY because of Amnesia. It's basically built perfectly for it, having a Psychic resistance to set up on stuff like Alakazam, a hefty Defense stat so that you don't need to worry about Amnesia not pumping that up, and a good STAB in Surf that hits a good portion of the tier for neutral damage. Unfortunately, it's really slow (which Thunder Wave mitigates to a certain extent, but still), relies on Rest for recovery, and is done no favors by RBY's setup-unfriendly crit mechanics. Still, it's a good Pokemon that can be scary as hell in a late-game sweeping position.

    As for GSC, Slowbro's history there is... interesting. Once upon a time, it was OU, no doubt due in part to the fascination for Growlbro held by Celia/Bob/whatever his name really was. However, nowadays, Slowbro is really just too... slow to be very useful. Thunder Wave support is real nice, but outside of that Slowbro is a poor man's bulky water that is outsped by Marowak and can't counter Tyranitar because of the Crunch weakness. So it's not really a very good bulky water at all. And if you want paralysis support + Growl for Curselax, just use Miltank, at least that gets instant recovery and Heal Bell support. Slowbro does get Reflect, but that just isn't enough to warrant it a teamslot over other stuff. Sorry Bro :(. That being said, this thing is a monster in GSC UU. It can wall pretty much whatever it wants, has enough Special Attack to actually hurt things, and is basically the best at forcing things to take Thunder Waves in a metagame that really hates dealing with paralysis. It's definitely suspect in UU.

    As for ADV, as far as I'm aware it is, again, kind of a poor man's bulky water, only this time it gets Calm Mind. Not sure why anybody would use it instead of Suicune unless they wanted to gimmick. Maybe to have STAB Psychic to get past Gyarados and OHKO Gengar? Maybe to get Thunder Wave to hit Zapdos with a CM-boosted Surf before it can be hit in return by a Thunderbolt? I know, I'm reaching, but I seriously don't see why Slowbro would be preferred when it's basically a slower, worse Suicune with a Crunch weakness.
  18. Captain Evil

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    Had it not been for how critical hits worked in RBY, Slowbro would essentially have been Special Curselax.

    Also, the Fighting resistance could potentially be useful in later generations. It walls many things, but is kinda outclassed by Starmie in every single generation if one attempts to justifu its team slot by its typing.
  19. Jellicent

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    Badass looking in every gen, Nidoking was only OU for one, GSC. For the other generations, he remained a solid option in UU. So, what held this guy back in all of the other generations, and what made him a star in GSC? As always, discuss this Pokemon's best sets, roles, and niches throughout the generations~
  20. Jorgen

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    Nidoking is mediocre in RBY because of his weaknesses and his remarkably average stats across the board. It has a nice attacking movepool with BoltBeam and STAB Earthquake, but that doesn't make up for its numerous shortcomings. However, he does get a couple of cool toys outside of the RBY metagame proper. In Stadium, Focus Energy stops being bugged, so Nidoking can use that to finally abuse his solid attacking coverage to a certain extent, although he still suffers mightily from weaknesses to Psychic, Ice, and Ground. Jolteon is probably the better Focus Energy abuser with fewer weaknesses and better stats, although Nidoking beats it head-on and can set up against it. In Tradebacks, he gets Amnesia, which is kind of cool for pumping up that BoltBeam coverage and letting him maybe tank a Psychic or two, but it's kind of underwhelming when other Amnesia abusers like Hypno are out there. He also gets Lovely Kiss, which is probably better than Amnesia, although it is still limited by the fact that it is tough to find a time to switch him in to put something to sleep. Overall, Stadium sans Tradebacks is likely where RBY Nidoking shines best. Outside of that he just can't find a time to switch in and do damage, and when he does he's underwhelming and would often best be replaced by something else.

    In GSC, a few things happened. First is Lovely Kiss, and this is the main thing that launched Nidoking over the edge. However, that's not all. The metagame slowed down considerably, so Nidoking's Base 85 Speed went from mediocre to pretty damn good. Psychics became a lot less prevalent and those that remained became a lot more afraid of Nido's Super-Effective coverage because of the Special split. Nidoking runs roughly the same set it did in RBY: EQ, Thunder(bolt), Ice Beam, and Lovely Kiss over whatever filler it was using in RBY. Nidoking is one of the main reasons to use Hidden Power on your Raikou or to use attacking moves in general; this thing can tear teams apart if they just let it keep hitting things without being hit back. It's probably the most reliable pure attacker in GSC.
  21. Crystal_

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    Also noteworthy are Nidoking's immunities to both Toxic and Thunder Wave in GSC, giving it some longevity into teams lacking a heal bell user. Its electric-type immunity makes it a decent electric-type check; it's at least useful for pivoting against Zapdos so that Snorlax doesn't have to take a STAB Thunder in the switch-in. Nidoking is sometimes used in stall teams for this reason, it helps Snorlax cover electric-types, while adding some necessary offense to the team. Nidoking actually boasts a very good longevity if you don't have to deal with spikes or can spin them, although, unfortunately, it doesn't come close to hit as hard as Marowak with physical attacks, but its higher longetivity and better coverage make up for that.
  22. Borat

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    At least pound for pound, Rhydon hits things harder than Nidoking does. STAB EQ from Rhydon is doing as much as SE attacks from Nido's special side give or take. LK is definitely what puts Nidoking a step above the other offensive grounds though.

    Having said that, I think the drive behind HP electric is pretty evenly spread amongst marowak, nidoking, exeggutor, steelix, and rhydon. Nidoking definitely isn't anymore a "main reason" than say marowak.
  23. Jellicent

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    Persian here has had a hard fall from it's glory days in RBY. Once OU, it dropped to UU for the next gens before settling down in NU for DPP. How did the metagame change to bring down this former threat, and what were its best sets and roles throughout the generations?
  24. Captain Evil

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    Again, one of the greatest differences between RBY and the later generations was the mechanics behind the critical hits. As high-crit moves were guaranteed critical hits for anything with even half-decent speed, Slash was effectively a 140 Base Power move, and Persian was one of very few to get STAB off it, making it a move with an effective Base Power of 210, which is actually quite impressive. Add Persian's wonderful Speed to the mix, and you have some excellent sweeper material right there. Golem and Rhydon aren't able to wall it, as Persian gets BubbleBeam to deal with them. However, Gengar shuts Persian down completely, and paralysis will put an end to Persian's effectiveness as well.

    When Slash was no longer a guaranteed crit, Persian was suddenly without anything to put it apart from the rest, and suffered greatly.
  25. Dre89

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    Persian is starting to become more relevant again in RBY now as a stall breaker now that reflect and amnesia users are running around everywhere.

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