All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Miltank

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. shrapn3l

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    in adv uu persian is one of the fastest things in the tier so a lot of things that rock a salac berry sometimes use enough speed to outspeed persian after +1 (more likely they will just try to outspeed scyther and manectric though). however, nobody really uses it. if you are using any normal type aside from granbull, clefable, or kangaskhan it's as a gimmick. the only set worth running is double-edge/hp ground or fighting or iron tail/shadow ball/hypnosis or fake out. hypnosis and fake out are both sort of interesting moves that make persian "unique"-ish but stantler also gets hypnosis and has a better movepool (earthquake, calm mind, special attacks) and intimidate, and kangaskhan, the heavy mama whose adv uu reputation precedes her, gets fake out. persian is absolutely worthless without choice band. it's probably the worst normal type in the tier but its speed makes it somewhat relevant
  2. .Maguss.

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    Not only Slash, but STABed Hyper Beam, Critical Hit mechanics and no Steel Types are what make Persian that good in RBY.

    In GSC, Persian is useless, even in UU. It does learn Hypnosis now, but it can't do much after that, as its offenses are crap, and it can't even take hits as its defenses are even worse. After Hypnosis, I think the best it can do is Screech to force a switch and try to paralyze what is coming with Body Slam/Thunder/Zap Cannon. And of course, you can always Curse with Pokémon, but other Pokémon do it better even in UU.
  3. Jellicent

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    After bouncing around from UU to BL to UU again, Tentacruel finally made a name for itself in DPP OU. What changes to the metagame finally gave this Pokemon its chance to shine, and what were its best sets, roles, and niches throughout the generations?
  4. shrapn3l

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    swords dance tentacruel is incredible in ADV UU. it has great speed for the tier, its special defense is excellent, so is its offensive coverage, and there are plenty of popular weak special attackers to set up on. tentacruel is probably the best omastar counter in the game, since it takes shit from omastars attacks, sets up on it, hydro pump gets a boost from rain dance, and it can potentially spin away spikes. many other water types like blastoise and walrein often forego attacks like body slam, earthquake, and roar necessary to keep tentacruel from setting up and instead implement things like restalk and toxic to last longer since they have enough things to cover as it is, or to be more generally threatening. things like vileplume, altaria, and ninetales are also potential setup fodder. i have always been of the mindset that the only truly good counters for tentacruel are quagsire and cursing muk. if you are confident you can keep spikes out of play, shedinja is also fine. however, tentacruel could potentially have giga drain, hp ground, or thief as its last move over substitute or rapid spin. a number of other pokemon can do the job but they're all shaky. the next best thing is probably a hypno with the help of its support movepool, especially reflect and thunder wave. in a pinch pokemon like feraligatr, misdreavus, and kangaskhan can force it out and live with the damage. the problem is that tentacruel often comes paired with spikes and if it's played cautiously and/or lands an early poison or two your counters start looking much less solid. this guy is really just a terror. very difficult to cover (many neglect to do so), very easy to set up, can turn games around quickly because it's fast and can set up on a dime. really a nuisance to stall teams.
  5. M Dragon

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    Its also a very underrated gsc ou threat, with the subSD set.
    in DP it was at first used as a good mixape counter (Obi popularized it) that can set up toxic spikes and spin
  6. Captain Evil

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    One might ask oneself why Tentacruel isn't better in RBY than it appears to be. It has a very impressive Special stat as well as good Speed and access to Wrap. The Poison typing is a downfall, with weaknesses to the very much used Earthquake and Psychic, and Gengar seems to shut it down. Psychic isn't quite as scary as Earthquake, as Tentacruel should be partially protected from the former by its impressive Special (defence). However, I'd consider Wrap Tentacruel a dangerous threat in RBY, but then again, I may not even know what I'm talking about.
  7. Crystal_

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    Tentacruel is a poor man's Cloyster in RBY in the sense that is also walled by Starmie and to an extent Alakazam (and needs luck against chansey), while not sharing most of cloyster's good points like walling snorlax, impressive defense, explosion and stab blizzard (although tenta's impressive spc stat sorta makes up for that). In addition, Psychic and Earthquake weakness make Tentacruel a pretty bad Pokemon in OU.

    In gsc tenta is one of the forgotten threats, and can be pretty dangerous with a sd sub set. With the amount of thunder electics, non-eq machamps, vaps and the like running around, tenta definitely has some potential left. Another underlooked role that tenta can fulfill is the role of a spinner, and unlike starmie, it is immune to toxic and resists hp bug while resisting cloyster's surf as well. Still, rapid spin completely limits tentacruel. Not only SD, but also Haze is incompatible with RS which means that you can't use it as a vap counter either.
  8. Dre89

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    Tenta's biggest draw in RBY is that he's the joint fastest wrapper in the game (if you include fire spin, but he counters those pokemon anyway).

    What this means is that he's the best pokemon in the game to come in on wrappers and threaten wrap in return. It's an interesting option because the standard wrap-counters can't threaten wrap in return and thus don't give you the same control that tentacruel can. That's really the only thing he has to justify a team slot over other pokemon.
  9. Jorgen

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    Technically, if you count Fire Spin, Rapidash is the sole fastest trapper.

    Also Tenta easily counters ST Vap in GSC, but I think AA Vap ends up beating it out.
  10. Borat

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    Tenta as a spinner in GSC isn't all flowers and vaginas, it's stuck in retard mode against gengar.
  11. Crystal_

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    It's a real shame tenta can't use Haze and Spin in the same moveset either. Toxic-immune spin + vap counter + non eq machamp counter would make for an interesting combiantion.
    Surf still doing over 1/3 to Gengar though.
  12. Jellicent

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    From OU to BL to UU to NU, Golem had a very slow and steady fall from grace. What changes in the metagame brought on this decline, and what were its best sets, roles, and niches throughout history?
  13. magic9mushroom

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    In RBY, its main uses are to wall Zapdos, and to switch into Hyper Beams and Explosions. It also packs an Explosion of its own, giving it some distinction from Rhydon. Its classic set is Earthquake/Rock Slide/Body Slam/Explosion.

    Switching into Hyper Beam is less relevant in GSC, since it's no longer as useful a finishing move, and Rest becomes a more viable alternative to Explosion as well. If that wasn't enough, the Steel type was introduced, which tends to overshadow Rock as a defensive type.
  14. shrapn3l

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    in adv uu golem was really popular for a long time but at some point people realized there is practically no reason to use it over omastar, solrock, lunatone, and even the not-that-great-either aggron. unless you are using it on an incredibly fast paced team, or you can support it consistently with reflect and wishes from hypno, kangaskhan is too much for it and granbull's no slouch either. the rse analysis onsite recommends restalk golem but that is utter shit. if you are going to use an offensively impotent restalking normal resistance you may as well have it set up spikes (omastar). i really do not remember the last time i felt inclined toward putting golem on an adv uu team.

    it does well enough against the likes of fearow i guess, provided you have something else to handle kangaskhan, and it does have a pretty powerful earthquake/double-edge/explosion, particularly with a cb tacked onto it. has a lot of trouble with gligar and solrock regardless and they're everywhere. counter can take kangaskhan by surprise. i guess golem can be kind of helpful against pinsir??? i dunno it is kind of worthless no matter how you look at it, but way too good for NU where even relicanth is a major rascal.
  15. .Maguss.

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    Actually, switching into Hyper Beam is completelly unrelevant in GSC. No one uses Hyper Beam (think Charizard is the only that may have it).

    Also, Explosion is the only reason to use Golem in GSC. There is no reason to use it over Rhydon if you pick Rest. The advantage of Golem over Steelix as an exploder is that it forces the water-types to switch in with Earthquake, Rock Slide and Fire Blast, whereas Steelix have alternative counters (most flyers, Skarmory specially, if Spikes is not on the field). Even then, Steelix is better Pokémon overall, excellent phazer, working amazing well with Spikes. Golem have only one purpose: explode. Also, using Golem is harder as you need to more predict to work.

    EDIT: you may run Substitute on Golem to help predict, but then you should forego one of the other 3 moves, making it easier to counter it.
  16. Jorgen

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    GSC Golem either runs Fire Blast for instant Skarm/Egg damage or Curse to switch into Curselax while still beating down on non-Curse Skarms (and para'd Curse Skarms). I'd prefer Curse personally because Curselax coverage is basically the only thing he has defensively, take that away and what's he switch in on to begin with? That being said Golem is quite mediocre in GSC; the power drop relative to Rhydon is much more relevant here and it's more dependent than ever on its Explosion. Still, it's pretty cool I guess.

    As for RBY we did Rhydon a while back, and inevitably Golem was mentioned all over the place in his description. Basically, Golem is a significantly weaker Rhydon (2HKO on Chansey is not guaranteed, 3HKO on Snorlax is nearly impossible, Golem's Rock Slides take notably smaller chunks out of Egg), but it gets Explosion to give it a way out in the event it has to retaliate in response to a big hit (and considering how many Pokemon hit the Rocks hard, this is typical). Also Golem outspeeds Rhydon so it wins the head-to-head. Aside from that, these two are the same Pokemon; defensively they switch into Lax Body Slams, absorb Hyper Beams/Explosions, and wall Zapdos/Jolteon to hell and back, all while providing a physical offensive presence that is really only safely sponged by Exeggutor.
  17. Jellicent

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    After spending the first 2 gens in UU, Magneton made the jump to OU in ADV. By DPP, it had a new evolution and found itself all the way down in NU. How did changes in the metagame affect Magneton's placement, and what were its best sets and roles throughout the gens?
  18. Jorgen

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    Magneton in RBY was awful. Very high Special, above-average Defense (high for an Electric-type), but awful everywhere else and without a movepool outside of Electric and Normal moves (the latter of which are unusable with base 50 Attack). I don't really play RBY UU, but I suppose it's decent there as an Electric-type with higher Special than Electabuzz, although the lower crit rate, inability to outpace Amnesia users, and inability to hit Grounds make it worse except as a secondary Electric.

    In GSC it got a Steel typing, but it's still not very good in OU. It's a steel-type with mediocre defenses all around and a 4x weakness to Ground, so it can't counter things like Snorlax that other Steels can, nor can it switch into the Water-types that other Electrics can. It even struggles to take resisted Thunders from Zapdos! However, it's a mainstay in UU, where it's the only Steel-type available and the only Dodrio counter that also beats the numerous Water-types in the tier. Just watch out for HP Ground! It's also got a ridiculous Special Attack stat that leaves Chansey and Ampharos as the only things in the tier that can wall it for sure, and access to Thunder Wave, the most annoying move in the tier.

    In ADV Magneton is a niche Pokemon that takes out Skarmory and sometimes Forretress (and sometimes even Metagross choice-locked into Meteor Mash), and it has a high enough Special Attack stat to do some work even after those pesky Steels are eliminated, plus a solid defensive typing that allows it to switch in on standard Gengar. It's not the best Pokemon in the world, but it has its niche.

    It's important to note that even after RBY, Magneton's movepool is crap, and from GSC onward it depends on having the right Hidden Power to hope to do damage (just like most Electrics, to be honest).
  19. magic9mushroom

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    The problem with Magneton in RBY OU isn't so much that it's walled by Golem/Rhydon (it is, but that goes for every other Electric as well bar Raichu), but that it's walled by Exeggutor and Chansey, both of which are omnipresent. Electric-types live and die by how well they deal with those, and Magneton poses little threat to either Egg or Chansey whereas Jolteon has Pin Missile and Double Kick and Zapdos has STAB Drill Peck.
  20. Lavos Spawn

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    Magneton didn't do much at all in RBY, GSC, and DPP. Alas, ADV were the only true glory days for this magnetic machine, and even then it didn't fulfill much more than a niche role. However, in the newer ADV metagame, Magneton is becoming more and more useful. The standard Substitute set, in my opinion, is eclipsed in usefulness by both the EndureSalac set and the RestTalk set. The former has nothing to fear from the common Skarm ---> Dugtrio double-switch to scout for Magneton, as it can Endure + Hidden Power Ice/Grass to shut the duo down. The latter, however, has what is arguably even greater usefulness in that it completely shuts down your standard status + Tbolt + Ice + GDrain Gar, while still performing excellently as an immediate stop to Skarmory and Forretress (and Metagross if it's locked into Mash). Both sets are really nice to have in this metagame, where Gengar is the 2nd most common lead and Dugtrio is on a very high percentage of teams. Sadly, the rise of Magnezone in DPP doomed Magneton for eternity, though it has seen a brief stint in BW for being able to, with a Scarf, outspeed Tornadus-T, which Magnezone cannot - but since Torn-T will be gone in a few days, it looks like Magneton's OU days are coming to a final close.
  21. Awoken

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    Just a comment about Magneton in Adv: I'm really not a fan of either the EndureSalac or the RestTalk sets. In my opinion, both sets have huge flaws that really hinder them in doing their jobs, which is why they are less standard than the common Substitute sets. For the former, let's say that Magneton gets trapped by Dugtrio. The Magneton player uses Endure as the Dugtrio uses Earthquake, gaining the Salac boost and subsequently outspeeding Dugtrio. The problem here is that the Dugtrio player isn't trapped; instead of staying in to eat an obvious hidden power grass/ice he can easily switch in Blissey or Snorlax and either force Magneton out or kill it outright. In this scenario, Magneton still hasn't accomplished it's purpose of trapping Skarmory. The next time Skarmory comes in, unless you predict perfectly with Magneton, it's a lose-lose scenario: If you let Skarmory set up spikes, Magneton can't come in, and if you try to bring it in, it'll die to Drill Peck/HP[Flying] etc. I guess it's a temporary solution to long-term problem.
    About Rest-Talk Magneton, any mispredict can lead to being trapped and ko-ed by Dugtrio. You're going to have to spam Hidden Power Grass/Ice, giving the opponent a lot of (relatively) free switch-ins. In general, Electrics (with the exception of Zapdos) can't make very reliable walls in ADV because of Dugtrio alone. Also, Fire Punch Gengar is pretty common.
  22. .Maguss.

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    Magneton is one of the main defensive Pokémon in GSC UU. Much like Quagsire, its unique type forces things to use Hidden Power only to counter it. That's because Magneton resists almost every attack that isn't super effective on it, with the expection of water moves, which is its biggest flaw IMO. It's an electric Pokémon that doesn't counter Water-types very well, as it can't take too many Surf on the switch, and being slow don't help it either. Anyway, it counter a lot of other Pokémon that doesn't carry a random Hidden Power [Ground]. And doubles as a support Pokémon with Thunder Wave and Reflect.
  23. BKC

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    Magneton is actually ok in DPP. Its higher speed is the sole reason it should be used over Magnezone; it's faster than Starmie, +1 Adamant Gyarados, +1 Adamant Dragonite, Scarf or +1 Ttar regardless of nature, Weavile, and Dugtrio. However if you're not going to make use of that, you're better off using Magnezone.

    In ADV I like restalk Magneton, simply because it's one of the more reliable Gengar switch-ins [Fire Punch is relatively rare]. The Metal Sound set is also pretty cool and can potentially be really annoying. Endure + Salac is cute but it's a one-time thing that can easily be foiled by the Dugtrio user switching out the turn after they EQ; plus, I don't think HP Grass even KOes Dug without some Spikes up since they run some SpDef for Raikou/Blissey. Mag + Porygon2 is really cool btw.
  24. Jellicent

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    D'awww~

    As the single most dominant threat of the 4 past generations, Snorlax is certainly a Pokemon we can all discuss. You know the drill by now; what are its best sets, roles, counters, niches, teammates, etc., and how did it change throughout history?
  25. Captain Evil

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    What puts Snorlax apart from other threats is its amazing resilience. In RBY, the 160/65/65 defences weren't stellar, but it was still significantly more durable than anything with comparable attacking potential, also using Rest to extend its longevity further.

    Around came GSC, and with it, Curse. With a nearly doubled Special Defence and a Curse-boosted Defence, Snorlax was very difficult to do anything with, other than forcing it out with options such as Roar and Whirlwind. Given that Curse also boosted its already very good Attack stat, trying to stall it out was also a demanding task. Still, something would always wall it, depending on the set.

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