All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Miltank

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    In RBY and GSC nothing but superlatives describe Snorlax. Briefly, Snorlax in RBY is the best (or at least, the most reliable) wallbreaker and the most versatile Pokemon in the game. In GSC Snorlax is even better at offense and more versatile AND is the game's best Special Wall to boot.

    Snorlax is not always walled by something in GSC. Most teams prepare extensively for it, true, but it still smashes them with a Drum set or a Curse + Fire Blast set (most walls take heavy damage on the switch or don't run recovery) or a SelfDestruct set or an LK set. It's impossible to always have Snorlax walled, and if you can always have it walled you're going to have gaping holes to other things.

    In ADV it lost some effectiveness with extra hazard layers, buffed Leech Seed, more prominent Normal resists, the new EV system, and Sand everywhere. In spite of all these nerfs, though, Curselax can still easily tear through an ill-prepared or a weakened team, and straight-out attacking sets are pretty scary, too.
  2. johnnyg2

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    In RBY and GSC at least, Snorlax can do anything it wants. In RBY, it literally can go one for one with any poke in the game with STAB Selfdestruct, hit hard with STAB Body Slam or Hyper Beam, be a great Goldon lure with Surf, set up amnesias and reflects with rest to become super bulky without crits... it literally can do anything you need it to. Snorlax is also the best place to be creative in RBY; one special move like Counter or Rest can turn the tide of a match.

    In GSC, you pretty much need one to function. In RBY, one can pull off a team without Chansey or Tauros. However, in GSC, Snorlax is just so dominant and can do so much that you have to try NOT to put it in your team. Every team is forced to carry multiple Lax checks, or they will get steamrolled by Belly Drum, Curse, Mix, or a random creative set. The metagame shifted from a more offensive in RBY to a bulky one in GSC, and this fit Snorlax perfectly. Snorlax even changed to adapt to this by greatly increasing its special bulk by about 1.5x. All I can say is try to be creative with it, as it can do almost anything you need.

    In RSE, Snorlax is not quite as dominant (but really, how can you be that dominant?), but its still great at what it does. It had to deal with more residual damage much more often than usual. Some of these are Sand Stream, Spikes, and Leech Seed robbing health. This makes its Belly Drum sets less usable, but its Curse set can still light the metagame up if anybody gives it an opportunity. It is also fairly unique in stats; it is the only specially bulky offensive tank in the metagame with the possible exception of Calm Mind Blissey.

    In DPPt, Snorlax is not nearly as effective, but it still maintains its niche as a specially bulky offensive tank. In general, the metagame moves too fast for Snorlax to keep up. Specially oriented threats also are much stronger, and there always is Choice Band Scizor ready to hammer you with U-Turn if you want to stay in. Despite all the difficulties it faces, it still is an excellent threat and should never be underestimated. It still is excellent in walling things like Heatran beautifully, and blowing up/trapping things with either Pursuit or STAB Selfdestruct (Can't have both). That Curse set is still there as well, but watch out for the ubiquitous Fighting pokes to beat up on you
  3. Nyara

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    This. Gigant. And. Round. Thing. Hits. Like. A. Truck.

    With the difference that a Truck can't beat it 1vs1. That's pretty much says all about Snorlax, he can beat almost any Pokémon on a 1vs1 that doesn't have Fighthing STAB and later just Selfdestruct itself, or Rest the damage and continue it's onslaught.

    On the first generation, it's one of best Pokémon over there thanks to a monstruous STAB Hyper Beam and Body Slam, even when it can't wall things all the day, it can resist some hits with enough luck, and defeat anything on a 1vs1 with a bit of luck. It's problem is the fact that Gengar and Rhydon/Golem are really common, so, it can't Selfdestruct itself so easily, Rest is really dangerous on RBY thanks to the huge number of secondary effects and Critical Hits, and the prevelance of sleep (they can just try to sleep Snorlax when it wakes up), and can even lost some 1vs1 thanks to it's really low Critical Hit rate and the higher ones of it's opponents. It's still a great Pokémon, and when it can't hit you all the time 2 K.O's or clean like others do, it still can almost always hit at least 1 K.O per match, help absorbing the sleep, as it's good at it, it can also set screens for it's friends and make a surprise counter, if needed. It rarely/never is a dead weight for the team, that's it's great asset on RBY.

    On the second generation, it winned a superb special defense, and Curse/Belly Drum, it's offen called the King of GSC, and it may be true as it can really wall and beat on a 1vs1 any, but any special attacker, and can win against any curse user on a 1vs1, rest/resttalk, and get ready for a new K.O, and when it doesn't have any hope to continue, it can just selfdestruct itself and score a second, third, or fourth K.O. It can even sweep and steamroll any team totally unprepared for it with just Curse or Belly Drum. For the luck of it's opponents, it somewhat suffers of 4 slot syndrome, thus, once you know it's set, you can check or counter him without any major problem, then problem is to figure what set it does carry, as if you figure the set too late, you'll at least lose 1 Pokémon by it's bear-like claws. Figthing Pokémon are now good and even great on this metagame, and all of them can check Snorlax pretty badly, like any Hazer and Phazer can do, too, so, it's far from being broken and you can play around it, even if you don't use it on your team, but it's without doubts the best Pokémon of GSC, and every team should be prepared for it.

    The third generation were good times, too, I think the ADV Snorlax was better than the RBY, thanks to it's defenses and new toys, and even when it's nemesis were better, Snorlax had all it needs to almost always score a K.O (usually 2) on this era, so, it's still like it's RBY part, just with new toys and counters. This Snorlax almost never had problems to support it's team while scoring always a K.O or two, and that's most than enough to make it a prime OU; still, as it had now some more counters and checks, it does now needs a bit of team support to take care of them, but a prepared Snorlax can overcome almost anything with the enough luck.

    The fourth generation... This thing hits like a truck, it may have now rivals for it's position of "I'll always help your team" with the likes of Scizor now being more powerful, but Snorlax is still a prime force, as it can steamroll any team without STAB Figthers or Close Combat users, it does need a bit of support, but if you have a free switch, some support for the Figthers, and some of paralize support, Snorlax will sweep and nothing will stop him. Even without support, it still had it's great power to almost always archive a K.O or two, with just a Choice Band this thing hits so hard that nothing without an inmunity can switch-in at all, and even them should fear for it's coverage and other sets, as Stockpile + RestLax can overcome anything with just a free turn. It's asset is still the same; it shall never be a dead weight for your team.
  4. magic9mushroom

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    Snorlax can't set screens for its friends in RBY, because a) it doesn't have Light Screen, b) screens don't transfer anyway.
  5. Nyara

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    Oh, yes, my error, I was used to the effects on Pokémon Stadium 2, just nevermind that.
  6. BKC

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    adv lax is really good. curse isnt that common, but youd be surprised at how un-prepared a lot of teams nowadays are for it. four moveslot syndrome is a bitch [shadow ball for gar, eq for ttar, rest for recovery, sometimes selfdestruct] but its still a really solid mon. from what ive seen, sd lax is the most common nowadays, and not without reason. its reliable against nearly any team.

    in dpp, lax is still solid, just a lot easier to stop, most notably by the incredibly common and dangerous breloom. its also annoyed by a lot of special attackers that its meant to stop; shaymin has leech seed, starmie can trick specs onto it, heatran can explode on it, gengar can either hit it with a strong focus blast or sap laxs hp with pain split...lax isnt bad against these guys for the most part, just not the most reliable. if you use lax in dpp, id avoid the curse set, and use either cb [return/pursuit/superpower/fire punch, acts kind of like a ttar in the way that it traps a lot of frail spatkers like starmie and gengar, except it doesnt bring sand with it, which is useful if youre also packing something like infernape], or four atks [return/crunch/eq/selfdestruct, generally solid utility attacker].
  7. Deluks917

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    Curselax in ADV has trouble with celebi and Skarmory. And is less effective if sand stream is on the field. It is extremely powerful but celebi/skarmory/tyranitar are not good problems to have. Tyranitar without shadowball has problems with gengar. Curselax is good but it doesn't match up well against the metagame.
  8. Awoken

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    I've been seeing a lot of CB Snorlax in ADV lately. Though this variant is particularly susceptible to residual damage in the form of spikes and the ubiquitous sandstorm, it can muscle its way past Celebi and severely dent its switch-ins with proper prediction. Skarmory and Forretress can be easily trapped by Magneton. With Wish support and its innate bulk this Snorlax has a surprising number of chances to really mess up the opposing team. When its done, it can go out with a bang, pretty much OHKOing anything with its choice-band boosted STAB Self-destruct except a ghost (even 252/252+ Skarmory takes 81.1% - 95.5%). Definitely a threat to consider.
  9. Deco

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    I've been wondering, if Snorlax was really so overcentralizing in GSC, why was it never deemed Uber? I mean, back then, there weren't any standard procedures on Smogon like there are nowadays, but I can't help but imagine some people may have noticed..
  10. Andeby

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    Huge discussion about that matter here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76584
  11. magic9mushroom

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    I've heard it said that it's because Snorlax has a zillion viable sets - that makes up for the overcentralisation somewhat.
  12. Deluks917

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    The attitude and policies of Smogon were different back then.

    I played through almost the entire adv gen (on and off). During the 7 or so years it was the main gen there was one short lived tier change (celebi was banned from part of one smogon tour season).
  13. Borat

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    Overcentralization of a pokemon doesn't necessarily mean overcentralization of viable team, which is what pokemon is really about. Running snorlax paved way for MORE teams than without. The number of viable/competitive teams with 5 pokemon + snorlax greatly outnumber 6 pokemon teams in the absence of lax. What other pokemon can make that claim?
  14. Jellicent

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    So, up until now, we've done RBY mons that were OU at some point during the first four gens. We've run out of them, so we've got a few options now. We could focus on RBY mons that were never OU, such as Venusaur, Blastoise, Mewtwo, Mew, etc. We could also go with GSC mons that were OU at some point, such as Tyranitar, Blissey, Skarmory, Suicune, etc. We could even go with a mix of these to spice things up a bit. The last option is to just end this thread here, but seeing as it's been a consistent discussion thread for about 7 months, I'd rather keep it going, personally.

    I figured it'd be best to get all of your opinions on the matter~
  15. Nyara

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    I could prefer to start discussing about RBY UU's Pokémon, how good or bad are them on the UU's and OU's metagame, what improved on some to make them arise on the future, and what did make them worst with the time. The GCS's OU is not a bad idea, but that could exclude the RBY metagame (something I could like to not being excluded, yet), but well, it's just my opinion. Oh, yeah, and include they posterior evolutions, too, like Golbat/Crobat, Seadra/Kingdra, and stuff.
  16. Borat

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    RBY UUs that were also GSC OUs. Wait... are there any? Probably just Vaporeon.
  17. Jorgen

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    There's also Nidoking and Machamp. I guess Jolteon too, technically, but I don't consider that to be "true" UU.

    I'd be fine with the first option, just as long as we're getting stuff like Venusaur and Kangaskhan that were either viable in OU or stars in lower tiers and not stuff like Beedrill and Butterfree that could be summarized as "sucks".
  18. Jellicent

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    Don't forget Marowak~

    But, to clarify, we've done RBY mons that were OU in any gen, even if they were UU in RBY. So, Pokemon that only made OU in one gen, like Marowak, Magneton, Tentacruel, etc. have all be covered. So, we'd either be looking at Pokemon that existed in RBY but never hit OU in the four past gens, or Pokemon that originated from GSC and were OU at some point in GSC, ADV, or DPP. If that makes sense...
  19. zfs

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    Well, as sort of a bridge before going to the GSC mons, we could start with the two RBY pokemon whose only OU meta is Gen 5: Venusaur and Ninetales.

    Venusaur is obviously a much richer vein for discussion. Ninetales falls more into Jorgen's category of "summarized as 'sucks'," though it has some token usage in Gen 2/3 UU, and at least it has Fire Spin for RBY.
  20. zfs

    zfs Everything old is new again
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    Also, to piggyback off of Jorgen, there are some RBY mons who've never quite made the leap to OU, but still are interesting to discuss. Examples include (IMHO) Kangaskhan, Muk, Sandslash, Articuno, Moltres, Clefable, Arcanine, Mr. Mime and Charizard.
  21. Jellicent

    Jellicent Ambien Trance
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    General consensus seems to lean towards RBY mons that were decent, but never quite made it to OU in any gen. Kicking things off:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    An RBY UU, Moltres spent the next 2 gens in BL before dropping back to UU in DPP. So, how was it effective, both in and out of OU, and what held it back? As usual, what were its best sets, roles, counters, teammates, etc. through the generations?
  22. Nyara

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    Well, on the RB2K10's list, Moltres is BL for the First Generation, too, and well deserved as he's maybe the best Fire-type Pokémon of the game along Charizard... but, that is, he's Fire-type, and that means you'll hard countered by Golem/Rhydon and Water pals all the day and night, and as both are Fire/Flying, you're risking too much to random stuff with Rock Slide, anyway, with good play and support, Moltres can overcome come of it's problems, for example Fire Blast really leave a scar on Golem and Rhydon and can destroy them if it burns, and he's still doing a lot to Water pals with just Double-Edge if they are weak, but, yeah, Moltres main problem if he doesn't have a good flying STAB, it means he'll walled by Chansey and other special walls all the day and night.

    - Unnable to do something to Slowbro/Starmie.
    - Need of a lucky burn to properly punish Golem/Rhydon.
    - Totally unnable to break Chansey and friends.
    - Slower than some threats like Tauros.

    That pretty much sums why Moltres is not so much used on OU, but he's still a good Pokémon on it's own, it can really check, counter, and hurt Exeggutor, and that's really neat, as you'll still hurt a lot any switch-in with Fire Blast, and he does well or great on a good bunch of 1vs1, like against Tauros, Persian, Jynx, Cloyster, and Snorlax, so, he can be worth of a slot if you somehow can manage it's really important weakness to special walls, Rhydon/Golem, and Starmie/Slowbro/Lapras, but... yeah, that's a lot harder than it may sound. If Moltres were able to learn Drill Peck (or at least Body Slam and aim for the paralyze), that could be allowed him to bypass special walls, but he doesn't, so, he's not Zapdos.

    Generation I set?

    [​IMG]

    Moltres
    - Fire Blast
    - Hyper Beam/Fly
    - Leer/Reflect
    - Mimic/Reflect/Rest/Substitute/Toxic/Agility

    Fire Blast to neutral and weak stuff, beware of burning stuff you don't wish burned. Leer special walls on the switch and you may with enough luck force a switch, if you don't, just keep using Leer and finish off with Hyper Beam if you're still alive. You can also change Hyper Beam for Fly if you want to do a sort of seudo-stalling with burning/poison, but that's not a great idea, generally. The last move is just a filler as Moltres doens't have more moves with Wrap/Evasion banned; Mimic for the prays of getting something good when you force a switch, Reflect to protect you from a possible predicted Explosion or of a slow attacker like Snorlax, Rest should be used along Reflect, and can improve your time on the field if Moltres counters are out from play, Substitute for mere scouting or to ease prediction, Toxic should be used along Fly for annoy, and Agility if you think you can clean with Moltres. Like any Moltres, use him more on the late game once Water pals are out from play, and don't switch-in him too much against super effective or physical attacks.

    If the last opponent's Pokémon is a special wall, Leer will win you the game.

    Show Hide
    Oh, yeah, Moltres with Wrap moves allowed can be a pain to deal with as it can Agility + Fire Spin, and he deals A LOT of damage on each attack, so, he doesn't need too much time to KO something, the problem is it's shaky accuracy, so, you need a lot more of luck to make it work than with Wrap, but when it works (70% of time), Moltres can be a monster. He's maybe the second or third best wraper of the game, anyway, it may have shaky accuracy, but Moltres can take hits even if he fails, and can just try again.


    On the Second Generation... well... exactly the same problems, but now he's a bit better, even when losing Fire Spin, he now can use Hidden Power, that can patch up a bit it's shallow movepool, for example, Hidden Power Grass can finally make Moltres able to defeat some Water and Rock pals, and he can do more damage to special walls thanks to Sunny Day (that at the same time covers it's weakness to Water), maybe not defeating Blissey, but he can do a fair match-up against even Snorlax. The problem of Moltres here is he's not able to take too much hits, it's bulky is kinda avarage at best, and it's type doesn't help to much, as any hard hitter will have a Super Effective against him, and it's weakness to Rock Slide really hurts... but even then, Moltres is a fine Pokémon for any offensive team, as he can set up Reflect, Sunny Day, stop Steel-type dudes, weakness Water pals, and spread burn and a lot of damage to a variety of threats, forcing some early sleeps or hitting a KO or two with enough previous damage and spikes, but, yeah, he's good only for few teams, and could be the worst legendary of weren't for the existance of Entei. One of it's main problems are that for a hard hitter, it's speed is really depressing. Oh, yeah, Steel Wing is also there for Rock pals, if you happen to use another Hidden Power.

    On the Third Generation, hey, Moltres is now great, he's one of best offensive BL's over there, not too much changed on it's movepool, but he had some nice buffs, like Will-O-Whisp and the greatness lower bulk of most of it's rivals, making it's Fire Blast under the sun deadly, and Toxic can help him to wear down down more stuff. Moltres hit like a sun, but he can't take too much hits because it's type is just not good to take physical or special hits, so, Moltres need help to archive a clean switch most of the time, but he can be deadly once he enters. He's still not used too much because Milotic, Thick Fat Snorlax, and Suicune are excesive common, and they do a fairly good job at countering him, and well, BellydrumZard is also a popular option and people prefers more to use him than Moltres when they decided to add a Fire-type to its teams. Morning Sun helps him to stay more time on the field than on other generations, too.

    On the Fourth Generation... he could have been OU without problems, as he can now wall a lot of threats and hit them really, really hard with Choice Specs or Choice Scarf, but... this generation introduced Stealth Rock, making almost impossible to Moltres even enter on the field at all; some Pokémon can overcome it's weakness to Stealth Rock by being faster hard hitters, but Moltres weren't never a fast Pokémon, so, Moltres can't just enter at the field at all, and without Sunny Day or Choice Specs he can't deal enough damage or can use a good defensive set at all. Rapid Spin is a must, and when one of your defensive pivots or main attackers need Rapid Spin support to work, and it that thing can't sweep, it means you're not gonna do enough stuff for the slot. On UU, by other hand, Moltres doesn't need of too much power to actually hurt things, and if he needs it, he can just use whatever boosting item, and it's speed is over-avarage on UU, so, he's a threat on UU, a relative fast hard hitter that can take a hit or two, but again, he needs Rapid Spin support to work, but on UU, it can really be worthy in exchange.
  23. .Maguss.

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    Articuno is the worst legendary in GSC. And Entei is better than Moltres IMO. It doesn't hit hard as Moltres, but it does learn Solarbeam is pretty bulky.
  24. Nyara

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    Entei's problem is its avarage offensive stats, with 90 of base for its special attack you'll not gonna break to much stuff, and without any STAB physical attack, you're not gonna deal too much damage with that. Entei is bad at Cursing as your opponent will almost always carry Surf and Earthquake, and something similar goes for RestTalk, Entei's edge is its lessen weakness to Rock Slide, SolarBeam, and maybe Psych Up, and its 101 HP substitutes; Entei's SolarBeam is just 20% more powerful than Moltres' Hidden Power Grass, so, you can't break stuff weak to that at all, but it's still a help, the lessen weakness to Rock Slide will rarely help (apart from a possible switch-in), and Psych Up can be useful, but it's niche, anyway. Moltres can at least break stuff with it's higher special attack.

    Articuno at least do have an edge as a wall, as not too much stuff can break Articuno apart from Rock Slide and Fire pals under the sun, and you'll gonna freeze something soon or later with SleepTalking Ice Beam, and BoltBeaming with STAB on Ice Beam is nice, too; it can really break stuff with a Baton Passed Growth and wall at the same time, still, Articuno is not very good on GSC, but I find her better than Entei, who lacks of a real niche or use at all.

    But well, that's just my opinion, lol.
  25. BKC

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    ADV Moltres is fairly underrated but it's a very good Pokemon. STAB Fire Blast off 383/349 Special Attack is really strong, especially if it's used Sunny Day beforehand. Will-o-Wisp screws up Tyranitar, and once he's out of the picture, Morning Sun makes it surprisingly hard to kill. It's got its troubles like Suicune & Aerodactyl but it should definitely be used more as it's pretty scary to face in the right hands.

    Even though the quadruple Stealth Rock weakness is a bit more than the standard pain in the ass, DPP Moltres is one of the best Pokemon in UU. While the SubRoost set is very good, draining PP and roasting everything that's immune to Toxic (Venusaur, Steelix) with STAB Flamethrower, it's best as a Life Orb attacker; even its best counters (Chansey, Milotic) are hard-pressed to switch into it if they're not at full health and/or there are multiple layers of hazards down.

    Moltres is also pretty good in OU, although the presence of Heatran & Tyranitar doesn't exactly thrill it. When messing around with it recently, I used a Choice Scarf lead to U-turn out of the inevitable Heatran/Tyranitar switch-in for an easy trap with Dugtrio. I remember playing mostwanted with it; I got two kills with Dugtrio & the other four with Moltres...it was beautiful. The Life Orb/Choice Specs/SubRoost sets are also very good. All in all, it needs a lot of support to work, and my favorite DPP mon (SUB ROOST AERODACTYL and the life orb set as well i suppose even though its not as good) hard-counters it but Moltres is a very good mon!

    It's also one of the best Breloom counters. Fuck Breloom.

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