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All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Victreebel

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. Nyara

    Nyara

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    I could prefer to start discussing about RBY UU's Pokémon, how good or bad are them on the UU's and OU's metagame, what improved on some to make them arise on the future, and what did make them worst with the time. The GCS's OU is not a bad idea, but that could exclude the RBY metagame (something I could like to not being excluded, yet), but well, it's just my opinion. Oh, yeah, and include they posterior evolutions, too, like Golbat/Crobat, Seadra/Kingdra, and stuff.
  2. Borat

    Borat

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    RBY UUs that were also GSC OUs. Wait... are there any? Probably just Vaporeon.
  3. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    There's also Nidoking and Machamp. I guess Jolteon too, technically, but I don't consider that to be "true" UU.

    I'd be fine with the first option, just as long as we're getting stuff like Venusaur and Kangaskhan that were either viable in OU or stars in lower tiers and not stuff like Beedrill and Butterfree that could be summarized as "sucks".
  4. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Don't forget Marowak~

    But, to clarify, we've done RBY mons that were OU in any gen, even if they were UU in RBY. So, Pokemon that only made OU in one gen, like Marowak, Magneton, Tentacruel, etc. have all be covered. So, we'd either be looking at Pokemon that existed in RBY but never hit OU in the four past gens, or Pokemon that originated from GSC and were OU at some point in GSC, ADV, or DPP. If that makes sense...
  5. zfs

    zfs Everything old is new again
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    Well, as sort of a bridge before going to the GSC mons, we could start with the two RBY pokemon whose only OU meta is Gen 5: Venusaur and Ninetales.

    Venusaur is obviously a much richer vein for discussion. Ninetales falls more into Jorgen's category of "summarized as 'sucks'," though it has some token usage in Gen 2/3 UU, and at least it has Fire Spin for RBY.
  6. zfs

    zfs Everything old is new again
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    Also, to piggyback off of Jorgen, there are some RBY mons who've never quite made the leap to OU, but still are interesting to discuss. Examples include (IMHO) Kangaskhan, Muk, Sandslash, Articuno, Moltres, Clefable, Arcanine, Mr. Mime and Charizard.
  7. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    General consensus seems to lean towards RBY mons that were decent, but never quite made it to OU in any gen. Kicking things off:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    An RBY UU, Moltres spent the next 2 gens in BL before dropping back to UU in DPP. So, how was it effective, both in and out of OU, and what held it back? As usual, what were its best sets, roles, counters, teammates, etc. through the generations?
  8. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Well, on the RB2K10's list, Moltres is BL for the First Generation, too, and well deserved as he's maybe the best Fire-type Pokémon of the game along Charizard... but, that is, he's Fire-type, and that means you'll hard countered by Golem/Rhydon and Water pals all the day and night, and as both are Fire/Flying, you're risking too much to random stuff with Rock Slide, anyway, with good play and support, Moltres can overcome come of it's problems, for example Fire Blast really leave a scar on Golem and Rhydon and can destroy them if it burns, and he's still doing a lot to Water pals with just Double-Edge if they are weak, but, yeah, Moltres main problem if he doesn't have a good flying STAB, it means he'll walled by Chansey and other special walls all the day and night.

    - Unnable to do something to Slowbro/Starmie.
    - Need of a lucky burn to properly punish Golem/Rhydon.
    - Totally unnable to break Chansey and friends.
    - Slower than some threats like Tauros.

    That pretty much sums why Moltres is not so much used on OU, but he's still a good Pokémon on it's own, it can really check, counter, and hurt Exeggutor, and that's really neat, as you'll still hurt a lot any switch-in with Fire Blast, and he does well or great on a good bunch of 1vs1, like against Tauros, Persian, Jynx, Cloyster, and Snorlax, so, he can be worth of a slot if you somehow can manage it's really important weakness to special walls, Rhydon/Golem, and Starmie/Slowbro/Lapras, but... yeah, that's a lot harder than it may sound. If Moltres were able to learn Drill Peck (or at least Body Slam and aim for the paralyze), that could be allowed him to bypass special walls, but he doesn't, so, he's not Zapdos.

    Generation I set?

    [​IMG]

    Moltres
    - Fire Blast
    - Hyper Beam/Fly
    - Leer/Reflect
    - Mimic/Reflect/Rest/Substitute/Toxic/Agility

    Fire Blast to neutral and weak stuff, beware of burning stuff you don't wish burned. Leer special walls on the switch and you may with enough luck force a switch, if you don't, just keep using Leer and finish off with Hyper Beam if you're still alive. You can also change Hyper Beam for Fly if you want to do a sort of seudo-stalling with burning/poison, but that's not a great idea, generally. The last move is just a filler as Moltres doens't have more moves with Wrap/Evasion banned; Mimic for the prays of getting something good when you force a switch, Reflect to protect you from a possible predicted Explosion or of a slow attacker like Snorlax, Rest should be used along Reflect, and can improve your time on the field if Moltres counters are out from play, Substitute for mere scouting or to ease prediction, Toxic should be used along Fly for annoy, and Agility if you think you can clean with Moltres. Like any Moltres, use him more on the late game once Water pals are out from play, and don't switch-in him too much against super effective or physical attacks.

    If the last opponent's Pokémon is a special wall, Leer will win you the game.

    Show Hide
    Oh, yeah, Moltres with Wrap moves allowed can be a pain to deal with as it can Agility + Fire Spin, and he deals A LOT of damage on each attack, so, he doesn't need too much time to KO something, the problem is it's shaky accuracy, so, you need a lot more of luck to make it work than with Wrap, but when it works (70% of time), Moltres can be a monster. He's maybe the second or third best wraper of the game, anyway, it may have shaky accuracy, but Moltres can take hits even if he fails, and can just try again.


    On the Second Generation... well... exactly the same problems, but now he's a bit better, even when losing Fire Spin, he now can use Hidden Power, that can patch up a bit it's shallow movepool, for example, Hidden Power Grass can finally make Moltres able to defeat some Water and Rock pals, and he can do more damage to special walls thanks to Sunny Day (that at the same time covers it's weakness to Water), maybe not defeating Blissey, but he can do a fair match-up against even Snorlax. The problem of Moltres here is he's not able to take too much hits, it's bulky is kinda avarage at best, and it's type doesn't help to much, as any hard hitter will have a Super Effective against him, and it's weakness to Rock Slide really hurts... but even then, Moltres is a fine Pokémon for any offensive team, as he can set up Reflect, Sunny Day, stop Steel-type dudes, weakness Water pals, and spread burn and a lot of damage to a variety of threats, forcing some early sleeps or hitting a KO or two with enough previous damage and spikes, but, yeah, he's good only for few teams, and could be the worst legendary of weren't for the existance of Entei. One of it's main problems are that for a hard hitter, it's speed is really depressing. Oh, yeah, Steel Wing is also there for Rock pals, if you happen to use another Hidden Power.

    On the Third Generation, hey, Moltres is now great, he's one of best offensive BL's over there, not too much changed on it's movepool, but he had some nice buffs, like Will-O-Whisp and the greatness lower bulk of most of it's rivals, making it's Fire Blast under the sun deadly, and Toxic can help him to wear down down more stuff. Moltres hit like a sun, but he can't take too much hits because it's type is just not good to take physical or special hits, so, Moltres need help to archive a clean switch most of the time, but he can be deadly once he enters. He's still not used too much because Milotic, Thick Fat Snorlax, and Suicune are excesive common, and they do a fairly good job at countering him, and well, BellydrumZard is also a popular option and people prefers more to use him than Moltres when they decided to add a Fire-type to its teams. Morning Sun helps him to stay more time on the field than on other generations, too.

    On the Fourth Generation... he could have been OU without problems, as he can now wall a lot of threats and hit them really, really hard with Choice Specs or Choice Scarf, but... this generation introduced Stealth Rock, making almost impossible to Moltres even enter on the field at all; some Pokémon can overcome it's weakness to Stealth Rock by being faster hard hitters, but Moltres weren't never a fast Pokémon, so, Moltres can't just enter at the field at all, and without Sunny Day or Choice Specs he can't deal enough damage or can use a good defensive set at all. Rapid Spin is a must, and when one of your defensive pivots or main attackers need Rapid Spin support to work, and it that thing can't sweep, it means you're not gonna do enough stuff for the slot. On UU, by other hand, Moltres doesn't need of too much power to actually hurt things, and if he needs it, he can just use whatever boosting item, and it's speed is over-avarage on UU, so, he's a threat on UU, a relative fast hard hitter that can take a hit or two, but again, he needs Rapid Spin support to work, but on UU, it can really be worthy in exchange.
  9. .Maguss.

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    Articuno is the worst legendary in GSC. And Entei is better than Moltres IMO. It doesn't hit hard as Moltres, but it does learn Solarbeam is pretty bulky.
  10. Nyara

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    Entei's problem is its avarage offensive stats, with 90 of base for its special attack you'll not gonna break to much stuff, and without any STAB physical attack, you're not gonna deal too much damage with that. Entei is bad at Cursing as your opponent will almost always carry Surf and Earthquake, and something similar goes for RestTalk, Entei's edge is its lessen weakness to Rock Slide, SolarBeam, and maybe Psych Up, and its 101 HP substitutes; Entei's SolarBeam is just 20% more powerful than Moltres' Hidden Power Grass, so, you can't break stuff weak to that at all, but it's still a help, the lessen weakness to Rock Slide will rarely help (apart from a possible switch-in), and Psych Up can be useful, but it's niche, anyway. Moltres can at least break stuff with it's higher special attack.

    Articuno at least do have an edge as a wall, as not too much stuff can break Articuno apart from Rock Slide and Fire pals under the sun, and you'll gonna freeze something soon or later with SleepTalking Ice Beam, and BoltBeaming with STAB on Ice Beam is nice, too; it can really break stuff with a Baton Passed Growth and wall at the same time, still, Articuno is not very good on GSC, but I find her better than Entei, who lacks of a real niche or use at all.

    But well, that's just my opinion, lol.
  11. BKC

    BKC
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    ADV Moltres is fairly underrated but it's a very good Pokemon. STAB Fire Blast off 383/349 Special Attack is really strong, especially if it's used Sunny Day beforehand. Will-o-Wisp screws up Tyranitar, and once he's out of the picture, Morning Sun makes it surprisingly hard to kill. It's got its troubles like Suicune & Aerodactyl but it should definitely be used more as it's pretty scary to face in the right hands.

    Even though the quadruple Stealth Rock weakness is a bit more than the standard pain in the ass, DPP Moltres is one of the best Pokemon in UU. While the SubRoost set is very good, draining PP and roasting everything that's immune to Toxic (Venusaur, Steelix) with STAB Flamethrower, it's best as a Life Orb attacker; even its best counters (Chansey, Milotic) are hard-pressed to switch into it if they're not at full health and/or there are multiple layers of hazards down.

    Moltres is also pretty good in OU, although the presence of Heatran & Tyranitar doesn't exactly thrill it. When messing around with it recently, I used a Choice Scarf lead to U-turn out of the inevitable Heatran/Tyranitar switch-in for an easy trap with Dugtrio. I remember playing mostwanted with it; I got two kills with Dugtrio & the other four with Moltres...it was beautiful. The Life Orb/Choice Specs/SubRoost sets are also very good. All in all, it needs a lot of support to work, and my favorite DPP mon (SUB ROOST AERODACTYL and the life orb set as well i suppose even though its not as good) hard-counters it but Moltres is a very good mon!

    It's also one of the best Breloom counters. Fuck Breloom.
  12. Crystal_

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    I think in rby if wrap moves are not allowed the best Moltres' set is Sky Attack/Hyper Beam/Fire Blast/Agility, a la Articuno. A Sky Attack crit can save the day, and although it's unreliable, SA is pretty much the only option Moltres has to actually bother Chansey and Starmie. SA+HB koes Chansey as well.
  13. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    Well, some mistakes here. Entei doesn't learn Substitute, and Articuno doesn't learn Thunderbolt.

    Also, '20% more damage' means nothing. You need to know the actual damages it does on the Pokémon it is going to hit.
  14. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados

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    "BoltBeam" colloquially means the combination of any ice and electric attacking move I thought? Smogon's recommended GSC sets both include HP Electric alongside Ice Beam, hence that satisfies "BoltBeam."
  15. Crystal_

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    But tbh, HP Electric isn't doing anything useful anyway. It hits Suicune for just less than 20% after leftovers. I guess Articuno's best set would be Ice Beam | Toxic | Whirlwind | Rest, but give it some Spikes.

    I really see no reason to use Entei over Houndoom though.
  16. Nyara

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    Moltres' Hidden Power Grass Total BP: 24.360
    Entei's SolarBeam Total BP: 33.360

    Moltres does the 73% of damage than Entei does with it's coverage. How to calculate the final damage? Simple, divide that by the special defense of your target, add 2, later multiply that by 0,25/0,50/1/2/4 depending how it's resisted or super effective. End, you have the maximum damage, for the minium roll just multiply your result by 0,85.

    Targets on OU/BL where Hidden Power Grass/Solar Beam does more damage under the Sun than Fire Blast:

    Tyranitar (Entei: 56,3%-47,8% / Moltres: 41,4%-35,2%) 3HKO vs 90%+ 3HKO
    Vaporeon (Entei: 50,7%-43,2% / Moltres: 37,3%-31,7%) 3HKO vs 10%+ 3HKO
    Suicune (Entei: 51,3%-43,6% / Moltres: 37,7%-32,0%) 3HKO vs 15%+ 3HKO
    Starmie (Entei: 78,0%-66,5% / Moltres: 57,2%-48,6%) 2HKO vs 10%+ 2HKO
    Rhydon (Entei: 173,6%-147,7% / Moltres: 127,3%-108,2%)
    Golem (Entei: 163,3%-138,8% / Moltres: 119,8%-101,9%)
    Kingdra (Entei: 33,1%-29,3% / Moltres: 24,3%-20,6%)

    Entei's SolarBeam does the same damage than it's Fire Blast under the sun to some foes like Marowak, so, it ease a bit the prediction, but Moltres' Fire Blast is still doing them a lot more of damage, but in exchange, it hard a bit the prediction with it's coverage. Entei can't use SolarBeam outside from the sun, while Moltres if needed can use it's coverage outside of it. I'm too lazy to calculate the exact chance of 2-3-4HKO, so, they are just aproximates at eye. The practical effect of SolarBeam? It can, with enough luck, timing, and luck (Suicune should not select Rest never while SleepTalking) break Suicune if you hit it on the switch (it will force Suicune to rest, otherwise, its Surf will still win), the same goes with Vaporeon, it can win against Starmie under the sun, and can severly damage a Tyranitar without Rest (I don't know how much damage do Tyranitar against Entei and Moltres). Taking in account Moltres' principal targets are Rhydon and Golem with Hidden Power Grass, it can choose other type of Hidden Power to cover other stuff, like Water or Rock.

    Anyway, Entei's best target in comparison with Moltres is Starmie, so, it can be a reason to use Entei over Moltres, but that's pretty much all.

    While Fire Blast...

    Moltres' Fire Blast Total BP: 62.640 (83,520 under the sun)
    Entei's Fire Blast Total BP: 50,040 (66,720 under the sun)

    Well, it's not the exactly calc, as if I rebember OK, the STAB is calculated after the defense division and the 2+ add, but that's an aproximate, under the sun I'm not sure when it's calculated, so, it can be wrong. Entei's Fire Blast just does the 80% of the damage of Moltres one, and Moltres CAN break walls (even Snorlax under the sun) with that, and destroy offensive threats, but Entei just doesn't have enough power to do something at all... and Houndoom is still a better SunnyBeamer than Entei. Moltres is not great, but at least is not outclassed on it's job, and he does well it's job.

    Flamethrower in Entei is a joke. I don't know how much hard hit Entei with Hidden Power Figthing, and I'm lazy to calculate that, but I guess it's better than Return for the slot most of the time, but I think Rest is better, anyway. Fire Blast's PP is really minimal, so, it's really a pity that Entei starts to run off of PP's really soon and without breaking or defeating something most of the time (unless your opponent is dumb and switch-in its Steelix or something like that), but Flamethrower will not do nothing more than burn stuff, poor Entei. Psych Up is an interesting niche in countering some cursers, it can work on Entei.

    Ah, and yeah, with Articuno I mean with Hidden Power Electric, but, yeah, you can change that for Blizzard for more PP's to aim for a freeze and possible more damage if needed, or Toxic if you think they don't carry Heal Bell or Rest (but they do), and Whirlwind works with spikes as long you defeated the Rock Sliders over there, or you'll not gonna phaze too much (unless you're really lucky).

    About the substitute, my error, I rebembered more the ADV's Entei. Entei does have a niche on GSC? It may, the same as Raikou and Suicune but with a worst defensive type, so, it's not really hard to break at all, but it can help depending of the team, I guess.
  17. Borat

    Borat

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    Entei should use counter, solarbeam, sday, fireblast. But no one should use entei anyway outside of mono-fire in which case always use entei, so idk why this debate exists.
  18. magic9mushroom

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    Chansey risks freeze or FP, as do the Waters.

    Ground-types don't wall Zapdos unless they're also Rock-types, because it has Drill Peck and immunity to Ground STAB.

    Rock-types do risk a Fire Blast burn. But yeah, Moltres is garbage in OU where there's STAB Rock Slides and Recover users. Only thing it really does is AgiliSpin, and Dragonite's generally better.
  19. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    Entei does not learn Counter.

    And Moltres DOESN'T BREAK WALLS. From where you got Moltres can? If Snorlax can't wall it, then why i'll try to wall it with Snorlax? It's like trying to wall Rhydon with Snorlax. Entei is harder to counter.
  20. Nyara

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    The fact is you don't need to counter Entei as he can't deal enough damage at all.

    Way to counter Entei:

    - Have RestTalk whatever
    - Rest only with a Heal Beller later also works
    - Don't be weak to Fire Blast

    And that is... the most common set ever on GSC, so, yeah, unless you're facing a sort of hyper offensive team or a lame opponent, Entei is just helpess to do something at all, any other sort of team will have 2-5 walls ready to wall Entei to the hell and back, and to add problems, Rock Slide, Earthquake, and Surf are really common attacks from almost any Mixed Sweeper, and actually, really common on any good attacker, so, Entei don't even had a easy switch-in or can really win too much 1vs1.

    Moltres BREAK walls from the moment almost all the physical walls are weak to Hidden Power Grass or Fire Blast, and the second best special wall of the game; Snorlax, can't wall it because it's 2HKOed under the sun by Fire Blast, but, yeah, Moltres is not that great, either, as it's walled by Tyranitar/Suicune/Vaporeon/Starmie, but teams offen just carry one of them, so, it's up to you to defeat them, and wreak havoc with Moltres later, but, yeah, Hidden Power Grass is still helping him to overcome them if spikes are on the field and they do have some previous damage. Entei by other hand is just hard-walled by anything not weak to SolarBeam+Fire Blast (or actually, he's even with SolarBeam walled by Tyranitar/Suicune/Vaporeon, anyway), and he's not a good wall. Well, there are other Pokémon who also wall Moltres/Entei, but most of them are BL's, too, and Blissey.

    Entei's edge is he can check Starmie, but that is the unique thing that Entei is checking that Moltres doesn't (and it can just check it on few turns, Starmie can switch when Sunny Day ends, and she will win there), and well, Tyranitar without rest.
  21. .Maguss.

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    I never said Entei is not bad. I'm just saying it is better than Moltres. And, again, Moltres DOES NOT break walls. If you still think that, than I think you never played GSC competitively.

    EDIT: HP Fight from Entei 2HKO Tyranitar and 3HKO Blissey.
  22. Hemp Man

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    The GSC page for Moltres says "If it had Drill Peck and SolarBeam, it'd be a monster, despite its type."

    How well do you guys think a Sunny Day/Fire Blast/SolarBeam/Drill Peck Moltres would work in GSC OU?
  23. Nyara

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    Exactly the same stuff as Sunny Day / Fire Blast / Hidden Power Grass / Wing Attack, with just a bit more of raw power on Wing Attack (30+ BP with STAB already added, still not enough to being useful at all), and about SolarBeam, the same calcs adobe about Entei's Fire Blast, but with more raw power, being the most important stuff changing on 3HKO against Vaporeon, Suicune, Tyranitar, and Starmie into 2HKO, so, that could be a buff, but that's pretty much all, if you're really dying for those 2HKO, you can still use Miracle Seed, put Spikes on the field, and damage them just a bit before leaving (maybe with Pursuit).

    But even if Moltres had SolarBeam, your opponent will just not switch-in them until it's the turn when Sunny Day ends, and when they do on that moment (not a hard task), Moltres will lost always (bar Critical-Hits). That should be rembered that SolarBeam DOESN'T do more damage even if it's SE in comparison to Fire Blast under the sun and with STAB, it just deals the same, and I already listed the unique OU/BL Pokémon were SolarBeam is more effective than Fire Blast (when Fire Blast is resisted and SolarBeam is SE, or Fire Blast is double resisted and SolarBeam is neutral).

    And you're still OHKOing Golem/Rhydon with Hidden Power Grass, and you're still helpless against Kingdra.

    Curiosly enough, Drill Peck doesn't deal more damage to anything at all, at least on type-wise and under the sun, Kingdra? SolarBeam deals the same damage. Dragonite? Fire Blast deals the same damage. Fire? Fire Blast deals the same damage. Water? SolarBeam deals more damage. So, Drill Peck doesn't have any use with Sunny Day, outside of the sun, it can be of some uses against Dragonite and Fire pals, but I could rather just use Hidden Power Rock against them, that deals more damage to both. It is not 2HKO against Blissey, and SunnyDay Fire Blast already 2HKO Snorlax (and Drill Peck is not 2HKO, either). Oh, yeah, my error, Moltres' attack stat is lower than it's special attack, so, Drill Peck will do just the 85% of damage than the other options (or just about the same against special walls, and less against physical walls).
  24. Jorgen

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    In GSC, no SolarBeam means Moltres can NOT 3HKO bulky waters, and can NOT 2HKO Starmie. That is its biggest downfall. Well, that and the fact that Electrics murder it at LEAST 50% of the time. Still, it's the Sunny Day Fire with the best matchup against Lax, which is something. Tack on HP Fight and you can murder Ttar on the switch (which is better than HP Grass, which gets you the comparatively rare Rhydon and Quagsire).

    Moltres ain't breaking its most dedicated walls, but it's got a good chance at sweeping/cleaning if it's against a team that doesn't have those walls. High-risk mid-reward, hence why it isn't OU and why it's considered a gimmick.
  25. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Kabutops here was consistently UU from RBY to DPP. Despite a seemingly poor showing, he managed to carve out a few niches for himself. So, what kept Kabutops from ever hitting OU, and what were his best sets and roles throughout history?

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