1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Pokemon Unfit for UU Analyses

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Oglemi, Jun 6, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Little Cup Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    3,725
    Chou, it has Volt Switch. That in tandem with its decent bulk and non redundant typing is actually rather useful. I understand the rejection, but the fact that it's a trick roomer that resists bug, ghost, anf dark and has access to volt switch + good bulk lets it fill a lot of roles for a trick room team, leaving team slots for tr abuse. Trick room/volt switch/thunderbolt/flash cannon with 60/115/85 defenses? Rather good.
  2. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,139
    I would actually like to get Gothitelle of this list.

    It can actually take some hits in the UU tier thanks to its high defenses. Though its HP is kinda bad, but it works. (60 / 95 / 110 defenses)
    And her SpA aren't that bad either at 95.
    And Dark Pulse makes it different from other Psychic-types that rely on Shadow Ball, as Chansey won't come in unharmed. (EDIT: Forgot about Gen IV TM, thought it wasn't one.)

    I'm only proposing a Calm Mind set. I'm actually testing it now and it turned the match into my favor. Against Celebi of all Pokémon.
    But it has some support moves that can help a team. Trick Room, Thunder Wave, screens, Rain Dance and Tickle. Charm and Mean Look as well.

    It's no Reuniclus with its huge HP and SpA, but in UU it works. I have logs if you want.

    If you give it a go ahead, I would like to write it, if I may.
  3. Scoopapa

    Scoopapa
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    972
    Gothitelle unfortunately has nothing it can do that isn't done better by Mew. for CM, it has better speed, bulk (both sides), Special Attack, a healing move, and the threat of physical or stall breaking sets to lend to unpredictability. It also gets Dark Pulse, but neither are doing jack shit to chansey with it so it's kind of a moot point.

    It also has all of the support moves you listed (block over mean look), and Will-o-Wisp to outclass Tickle or Charm.

    Synchronize is also better than Frisk on a set where status is a big bummer.

    Sorry to crap all over this idea, it's just that the QC and GP teams have a big job assembling the strategy pokedex and they don't need to do analyses for NU material pokes unless they really have something to offer overthe other options.

    I know you've done a lot of work for the process so far and I hope you realize I don't mean this personally. Still it is what it is, and in this case it's a pokemon who basically has nothing but Frisk to differentiate itself from, let alone gain advantage over, one of the top threats in the metagame.

    It may be a different story if Mew goes to BL, but for now that seems unlikely.
  4. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    596
    I'm going to try to argue Slaking (though I think I'll be unsuccessful). With Cofagrius, you can rid of Truant with Mummy by making a foe get it and then hitting them with Pursuit. There are 2 ways to do this, with Mean Look or an Escape Button (the latter being more effective however the first allows Cofagrius to hold Leftovers). Here's the set that's been really successful in my experience:

    name: Mummified Sloth
    move 1: Pursuit
    move 2: Return
    move 3: Substitute
    move 4: Focus Punch / Earthquake
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Truant
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    The typical strategy but with a twist, max Speed, Substitute and the unexpected Focus Punch. Slaking might lose out on some power but the Speed is worth it, as it allows it to set up Substitute quicker preventing it from being affected by a status condition or Taunt (it still has to watch out for those with over 328 speed and those with the Prankster ability with Taunt). Leftovers heals off the damage and lets you set up Substitute more. Since Slaking is behind a Substitute, Focus Punch works incredibly well but Earthquake can still be used over it.
  5. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    802
    I seriously think that Togetic should get an analyses. With Eviolite she has tons more bulk than Togekiss, and can run a much better bulky Nasty Plot set by just running Hidden Power Flying as it's attacking move. There defensive stats are 10 stat points away from each other, which means that Togetic takes hit heaps better then Togekiss. The different Special Attack doesn't matter thanks to Nasty Plot, and neither does the Speed as that means that Togetic can take advantage of Trick Room, plus, if you give it Tailwind support it becomes scary good. I use

    move 1: Nasty Plot
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Heal Bell
    move 4: Hidden Power Flying
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Serene Grace

    After Eviolite and with these EVs Togetic has 314 / 403 / 403 Defenses. Here are some calcs:

    Defensive:

    Physical (open)

    252 ATK Choice Band Hustle Outrage from Zwelious vs Defensive NP Togetic: 67.2% - 79.6%
    252 ATK Choice Band Hustle Outrage from Zwelious vs Defensive NP Togekiss: 101.1% - 119%
    (note that this is the strongest Outrage in the game)

    252 ATK Choice Band Wild Charge from Electivire vs Defensive NP Togetic: 86.6% - 103.2%
    252 ATK Choice Band Wild Charge from Electivire vs Defensive NP Togekiss: 130.5% - 154%


    Special (open)

    252 SATK Life Orb Modest +2 Tri Attack from Porygon-Z vs Defensive NP Togetic: 94.9% - 112.1%
    252 SATK Life Orb +2 Tri Attack from Porygon-Z vs Defensive NP Togekiss: 120.9% - 142.8%

    252 SATK Choice Specs Modest Thunderbolt from Zapdos vs Defensive NP Togetic: 92.4% - 109.6%

    252 SATK Choice Specs Modest Thunderbolt from Zapdos vs Defensive NP Togekiss: 117.6% - 139.6%


    As you can see, Togetic's better defenses help much more in the long run, as the Strongest neutral and super effective hits on both sides of the spectrum always OHKO Togekiss, but always have a chance to 2HKO Togetic. The change changes by alot.

    +2 Calm Air Slash from Togetic vs Eviolite 252 HP/ 252 Def Chansey: 12.1% - 14.5%
    +2 Modest Air Slash from Togekiss vs Eviolite 252 HP/ 252 Def Chansey: 18.9% - 22.3%
  6. Berserker Lord

    Berserker Lord unreliable analysis writer.

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,215
    Hey, it might be a good idea not to fake damage calculations in the future, because Togetic does 12.1% - 14.5% to Chansey, while Togekiss does 18.9% - 22.3% with Air Slash. Togekiss also has the great advantage of much better Speed, and the power to actually threaten things with the Nasty Plot boost.
  7. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    802
    Lol I copied and pasted it and must've misclicked it. Yea the damage output is different, I didn't try to fake the calcs. Edited in.

    But like I said being slower isn't the difference, the thing is that it plays a much better defensive NP set that Togekiss as it takes hits much, much better. They actually play very differently, as Togetic is a tank while Togekiss is a sweeper.
  8. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,042
    Togekiss's stats:

    85 HP / 50 Atk / 95 Def / 120 SpA / 115 SpD / 80 Spe

    I wouldn't call this not bulky... Togekiss is better than Togetic in every way, with the exception of a minor boost in defenses. Togekiss hits harder, and has leftovers recovery as well as Roost. Not worth it imo. In general, I don't think NFEs should be allowed an analysis in the tier if their end evolutions are already in the tier.
  9. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    802
    yes but Togetic has 55 / 134 / 134 defenses. The offenses don't matter as there is Nasty Plot to cover that. Togetic is a tank, that's all it's supposed to do. Dusknoir has 45 / 135 / 135 defenses. They are quite close, actually, in fact Togetic takes hits better than Dusknoir. oh and I said that wrong, Togekiss is bulky, Togetic is just bulkier.
  10. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,042
    Togekiss has inferior typing for a wall, being weak to Rock, Ice, Electric, and Fighting when it roosts... Also, Dusclops is an exception (to what I said earlier).

    Eviolite does not automatically make everything better.
  11. Berserker Lord

    Berserker Lord unreliable analysis writer.

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,215
    That has to be one of the dumbest things i've ever heard in this forum. Offenses do matter, because they stop you from becoming set up bait! Togetic is set up bait because an uninvested base 80 Special Attack is terrible, even after a Nasty Plot. Togetic also has horrendous Speed, matching that of Rhyperior's. Togekiss has much better Speed, actually letting it outspeed things to defend itself. Togetic just allows too much to switch in with ease to be viable.
  12. Oglemi

    Oglemi I love you wonderful Minun-Kun!
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,820
    Yeah Gothitelle, Slaking, and Togetic will not get an analysis. End of discussion.
  13. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,651
    Okay, um, big thing about Togekiss:

    It flinches walls with Air Slash, which is an extremely more important aspect of the Defensive Nasty Plot set than you think. The ability to incapicate temporarily while attacking is extremely valuble, especially when Togekiss is up against the bulkiest of special walls.

    On the other hand, Togetic can't do that, even with paralysis provided for it.

    Speed is also a deciding factor in this kind of sweeping. The reason why I listed a choice of Speed in the Togekiss analysis is to outrun most offensive Pokemon within Togekiss's Speed tier, giving the advantage in recovering and attacking in between setting up.

    The only thing I would actually use Togetic for is Nasty Plot + Baton Pass, but even then it has competition with Togekiss here, and I question its usefulness in a general UU battle.
  14. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    802
    I realise that Eviolite doesn't make everything better but it makes Togetic much, much better. Togetic can also do some decent damage with Nasty Plot, too. Its a tank.
  15. Oglemi

    Oglemi I love you wonderful Minun-Kun!
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,820
    Even if it makes Togetic much better than what it used to be, it doesn't mean it's good enough to warrant an analysis. Togekiss just fully outclasses Togetic. Do not argue the point any further.
  16. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Little Cup Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    3,725
    Oglemi, you didn't mention Klingklang! :D.

    To recap:

    Trick Room + Volt Switch
    MonoSteel typing allows actual resistances to Dark, Bug, and Ghost
    60/115/85 defenses
    Usable offenses for a TR setter

    I don't want to see a stupid Gear Grind set, but it's a brilliant TRoomer for the lower tiers.
  17. Berserker Lord

    Berserker Lord unreliable analysis writer.

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,215

    Uh, Chou already rejected it, and provided good reasons for it not getting an UU analysis.
  18. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    802
    Im just going to say that Pokemon that abuse Trick Room should not get analysis for a while if that is their only niche (ie. Rampardos, Klingklang,etc.) as most TR abusers are well known for it.
  19. V0x

    V0x o:
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,888
    I'm going to have to come in here and say that people who haven't played tons of Trick Room can't use theorymon as a good reason to reject (not to downplay you Chou). Having a Bug, Dark, Ghost resist on a team (especially in lower tiers because most attacks are weaker) is so helpful; this is something that isn't seen unless you have a good grasp on how to play Trick Room, which requires more than a few matches I might mention. Volt Switch too? I don't know if people realize how helpful that is for Trick Room.

    The "bulk" of Deoxys and stuff is great, but the thing is they all share common weaknesses. Once you come across something that preys on that, you are going to have a hard time setting up, especially since Trick Room is ALWAYS LAST. You might say "you can just get something that eliminates those ghosts, darks, and bugs" but they can easily switch out while you try to put offensive pressure on them because you won't be getting many hazards up.

    The point is, however, that theorymoning Trick Room isn't really a good way to approach it (remember how the community theory'd Moody would suck, but it ended up broken? Think kind of like that).

    Also, I'm not saying Trick Room is good. Frankly, it's pretty bad at the moment everywhere because everything is too bulky and too powerful.

    @ Paradoxus: Klingklang isn't abusing Trick Room. It's supposed to be setting it up.
  20. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    802
    Ah, I misunderstood, but my point stands.
  21. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Little Cup Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    3,725
    Chou rejected it while saying it has no way of moving to a teammate. Klingklang has access to Volt Switch, mitigating that entire point.

    Likewise, there are a ton of reasons why you'd need those resistances. Psychic types are the most common trick roomers, and are the typing of every pokemon he mentioned. Pokemon that abuse that typing are rather scary for trick roomers because they share weaknesses to ghost, dark, and bug. Bisharp, choice locked Heracross, etc, are very deadly. Also keep in mind the shared weaknesses to dark make trick roomers very susceptible to the move pursuit. Common users of the move such as escavalier or houndoom can put the claydols and uxies and cresselias and victinis in check mate position, while klingklang can SWITCH OUT. Pursuit hits u-turners, so they can't even escape from it. Add the resistances to those types WITH good bulk AND volt switch AND offensive potential AND trick room make Klingklang very worthy of a trick room set.

    I understand chou rejected it, but I feel like it needs a bit more mulling over. And thank you v0x.
  22. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,269
    Okay, here's your mulling over.

    Klingklang's offensive prowess is terrible with its limited movepool and awful main STAB. It doesn't provide anything interesting to a Trick Room team other than being a Steel-type Trick Room user, and its 90 base Speed is a bit much for Trick Room. It doesn't provide anything neat like, say... a unique offensive type or decent power or coverage or recovery or anything of the sort. All it provides is its Steel typing, which barely qualifies as useful.

    The long and short of it is that Steel typing does not justify making an entire Trick Room set (and analysis for that matter) when it lacks every single other notable advantage of a Trick Room setup Pokemon, like extreme defenses (Dusknoir), offense and coverage (Slowbro/Slowking), or recovery (again, Slowbro/Slowking as well as some other mons). Klingklang doesn't bring anything special to the table, and with such a niche playstyle, it takes a lot to actually qualify for a Trick Room set.
  23. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,247
    I rejected it because you guys failed to give good reason for the resistances. You just said "look it has resistances," and I said, "so what?"

    Some of the arguments above have put out much better reasoning for the value to be found in KlinKlag's typing. I'm sorry I missed volt switch too, but you'll forgive me for not knowing the whole movepool of a Pokemon like...Klinklang...>3>...

    Anyway, it sounds to me like the reasoning is shaping out much better. I'll allow the analysis as long as none of the other QC members have gripe with it.

    edit: lol, well you heard SDS. Sorry on that point guys. SDS, I don't know if it matters, but since it has Volt Switch, being fast could actually be a good thing since it can "outslow" foes under trick room and volt switch your TR sweeper in without it taking a direct hit.
  24. Oglemi

    Oglemi I love you wonderful Minun-Kun!
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,820
    nah Volt Switch isn't reason enough. SDS said everything I wanted. Klinklang won't get an analysis.
  25. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,269
    Chou, Klingklang's movepool amounts to:

    Return
    Steel attacks
    Special Electric Attacks
    Trick Room

    Yep, that's it.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)