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Announcement Poll for our default simulator tiering level

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Aldaron, Oct 22, 2013.

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What should our default XY tiering level be?

  1. Level 50

    247 vote(s)
    38.6%
  2. Level 100

    393 vote(s)
    61.4%
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  1. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    As per Stellar:

    I propose we auto-set all Pokémon in 6th-Gen Smogon metagame battles to Lv50.

    Here are a few reasons why I believe we should make this shift. I will also briefly address counterarguments.

    • There is no Lv100 option in XY battles: Heart Gold and Soul Silver were the last Pokémon games to support an auto-Lv100 option. Since then, cartridge players have had to rely on Action Replays to level their Pokémon to Lv100 for competitive play. We kept the auto-level 100 ruleset last generation, but is it really worth widening the gap between simulator and Wi-Fi players?
    • All cartridge and officially supported metagames are Lv50: As previously mentioned, all XY Wi-Fi battles will be at Lv50. You will never find two players who legitimately leveled all six of their Pokémon to Lv100 in order to fight each other. GBU and VGC already use the LV50 format; many players are already familiar with it.
    • Getting competitive Pokémon in-game has never been easier: XY introduced a number of breeding mechanics changes and legendary Pokémon changes that make getting competitively viable Pokémon easier than ever. With the ease of access, many Smogon players will choose to play on cartridge in addition to playing on our simulators. It makes sense for us to lessen the gap between the two mediums and offer continuity. By doing so, we can allow players to transfer their knowledge directly from one medium to another.
    There are two main counterarguments to this proposition: tradition and "simulators should remove all the hard work." To these two counterarguments, I say, "Why?" Is there really a need for us to continue the trend of Lv100 battles simply due to tradition? Previous generations have brought much more drastic changes to competitive play: the physical/special split, team preview, etc. As with each of these changes, people will eventually adapt to Lv50 play. Yes, you might have to learn new stats and EV/damage calculations might be a little different, but I think these minor inconveniences are worth it in order to further close the gap between modes of play. Regarding "simulators should remove all the hard work": in previous generations, cartridge players had access to Action Replays to simulate the ruleset of Smogon metagames—they could use Rare Candies to level their Pokémon to Lv100. This is no longer the case on the 3DS and in XY.

    I think this is a rational move for Smogon to make. I do not think it is as drastic a shift as it seems at first, and the benefits it has for the community far outweigh any temporary annoyances.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just copied over the OP from the insidescoop thread cause I want to see what the general public feels about the matter.

    I'll give my thoughts separately in a bit.
  2. Haruno

    Haruno

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    Considering the simulators job is to be as accurate to the games as possible I think it's perfectly reasonable to do level 50 as the standard since level 100 is unavailable via normal play. So just being true to the games and going level 50 seems fine.
  3. Runic

    Runic

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    Aside from Seismic Toss being nerfed, what does this change practically?
  4. Slheyas

    Slheyas

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    The effect of BP is more significant at lower level I think.
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  5. Haruno

    Haruno

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    Makes Evs harder to distribute since level 50 is 8ev per stat point so arguably this'll make ev spreads more diverse.
  6. Senzura

    Senzura

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    Since maximum stats are somewhat different in lv50 v lv100 considering how EVs work, it changes things quite a bit.

    Simulators are called simulators for a reason. If level 100 cannot happen in the games, then having level 100 in the simulators would be tautologically contradictory.

    Also, making players go to 100 via flash carts (assuming we get a working XY 3DS one some point in the future) only increases the stigma that the singles standard is the "smogon format".
  7. Royalty

    Royalty Change Is Coming
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    The biggest thing it changes are how speed tiers work.
  8. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Why am I so shit
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    I'm going with lv100 for now mostly because GF has finally put some brakes on the insane powercreep we were having and, as far as I know, the damage formula increases damage percentages at lower levels. If it's a small increase, though, then maybe we should just go with 50 and call it a day.

    But it can happen. You can simply NOT choose to auto-level your pokémon.

    It seems to be a really shitty option though, as it appears XY doesn't have any decent areas to level up your pokémon after the 60s.
  9. toshimelonhead

    toshimelonhead Raising Whitney's Miltank

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    Is this going to exclude any pokemon that might be OU or below but is not available in game below level 50 for some reason? Or does XY autolevel when playing competitive battles so this isn't an issue?
  10. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Some changes at Lv.50:
    - A few speed tier differences
    - Slightly more damage (~2.5%)
    - Seismic Toss dmg slightly nerfed (97+ base HP can make "51 HP subs" now)
    - Due to the level bump, pre Lv.50 strats no longer work.

    Also since the Lv.50 autolevel format is also a freemode, no Pokemon are banned. All Pokemon above or below Lv.50 will be set to 50.
    Time Mage likes this.
  11. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
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    XY Does autolevel so it shouldn't be a problem.
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  12. Goutland

    Goutland

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    And here I thought that it was exactly the same at level 50, just with everything cut in half. If your or anyone could explain this in further detail I'd love to know how the percentages change (and what causes it).

    Also, if we do switch over to level 50, won't a 30 and 31 IV result in exactly the same stat (assuming it rounds down)? That would mean no longer losing speed ties due to running HP fire unless I'm mistaken. The only other change I'm aware of is having to use 248/248/8 spreads instead of 252/252/4, though I'm not sure if that even makes a difference in the end result.

    I've been corrected.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  13. LucaroarkZ

    LucaroarkZ

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    No, 252 EVs with an odd-numbered IV results in one more stat point than 248 EVs. 252 EVs with an even-numbered IV results in no change compared to 248 EVs, though.
  14. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Not necessarily. It depends on the EVs you put in. For example, a Latios with 31 IV in Defense with 4 EVs will result in 101 Defense. However, a Latios with 30 IV in Defense with 4 EVs will remain at 100.
  15. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

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    How is the speed tiering affected?
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I don't like the OP because it's not as objective as it should be. Anybody who reads the OP and has no opinion on the matter will be convinced that going with the 50 lvl system is the best option. There are also many more arguments from the ''keep the 100 lvl system'' side that are not listed in the OP.
  17. Shokwav

    Shokwav

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    This (level 50) seems to be the only usable option to me. Even though we will have to deal with slightly more damage, speed tiering anomalies, and slight IV/EV changes it simply isn't reasonable to expect someone to level every single Pokemon they want to use up to level 100. I have no clue why GF removed the level 100 option, but forcing players to train to everything to level 100 will turn more and more players away from in-game competitive battling.
  18. Runic

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    Can anyone confirm this? Voting lvl. 100 anyway because we never used the auto leveler before (Aron would never be used outside of LC if we did), so the fact that there's no lvl. 100 in this game doesn't change anything. We shouldn't be bending to the cartridge crowd, since pretty much every cartridge tourney is VGC rules anyway, and if they just wait we'll have it hacked (there's another thread that suggests Japanese players have already done so).

    alexwolf is completely right, by the way.
    Magnemite and TROP like this.
  19. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
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    EVs can affect stats less at level 50, sometimes requiring you to run 8 EVs to "Speed creep" other Pokémon by 1 point. There may be other things, but that's what I've gathered from it.
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  20. DDRMaster

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    I've always like the Lv. 100 system because it's essentially 2 players using the best Pokemon they can with few restrictions (Sleep Clause, Moody Clause, etc just so the metagame doesn't fall apart) and thus is essentially the purest form of battling.

    Although, I'm still not against auto leveling to 50 since it means a lot less grinding and the fact that we don't need 2 different EV spreads for the Nintendo formats and our own format. I think these are the only other changes that happen at level 50:
    - Boosting moves, Abilities, and Items are now slightly better, due to the +5 in the stat formula after accounting for level.
    - Base 97 Pokemon can now make 51 HP Subs but couldn't make 101 HP Subs at Lv. 100 for Seismic Toss.
    - Lv. 1 Pokemon have more HP compared to Lv. 50 Pokemon, so Lv. 1 Aron might not always get back to full health with Shell Bell and Endeavor against low health Pokemon and Lv. 1 Solosis might not get Pokemon within kill range of Sandstorm/Hail if they don't attack it.

    Edit: I was thinking it would make any Pokemon above Lv. 50 go down to 50 but Pokemon under Lv. 50 would stay at that level. Isn't that how GBU and the Battle Tower work?
  21. Goutland

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    Hm cool, thanks for the info LucaroarkZ and Jibaku. So half of a stat from EVs + half of a stat from IVs = an extra stat. I just assumed it rounded both down.
  22. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Why am I so shit
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    Just want to point out that the auto-level feature works for both pokémon above and below lv50, so there's no grinding at all. Of course, if Game Freak really wanted to, we'd have lv100 auto-level for any battle format and we wouldn't even have this discussion.

    Silly example I just calculated using Smogon Calc:

    0 EV lv100 Mew using Dark Pulse vs. 0 EV lv100 Mew = 116 - 138 (34% - 40.5%) damage
    0 EV lv50 Mew using Dark Pulse vs. 0 EV lv50 Mew = 62 - 74 (35.4% - 42.3%) damage

    A 4% difference.
  23. Okuu

    Okuu Applications Support, Pettan Co.
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    I'm all for the level cap. We're aiming to emulate actual battles, and the actual battles are taking place at level 50. It follows that 50 is the sensible level for us to choose here. Not to mention all of the benefits!

    * Now, Dragon Rage will be able to pop the subs of anything base 50HP or lower. Take that, Haunter.
    * Sonicboom remains laughably unusable.
    * For those of us who haven't quite gotten over Lance's underleveled Dragonites in the original games, we'll have a repeat dose of new players wondering why they can't evolve their Dragonair at lv50 in their game.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
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  24. Upstart

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    I oppose the enforcement of a lvl 50 cap.
    • Level 100 has a clear relationship between stats, EVs, and IVs. Lvl 50 presents a learning curve as the correlation isn't as direct. The curve makes it harder for new players to jump straight into the game. As a community I find that isolating new comers is against an initial doctrine.
    • Lvl 100 is possible in game with no manipulation except a few hours of grinding up. Emulating lvl 100 does not conflict with the mechanics of the game.
    • As the self proclaimed source of competitive battling, we should seek to battle pokemon at their full potential. It seems silly to not use their full power when we know it exists without any modifications to the game. It would be like being a competitive football league but not allowing NFL players to play.
    • I don't know how this "stay true to the cartridge" persists. It has never been uniformly enforced. We have tiers and clauses all absent from the game. Our job is not to emulate the game. Smogon throughout the generations has used Pokemon cartridges as the medium by which we construct competitive metagames. I mean maybe we should require people to catch pokemon before they use them on showdown.
    Karxrida, Lasagne, Hobert and 50 others like this.
  25. Manaphy

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    I'm completely against making the default level 50, as level 100 is entirely possible and it's seems like a pain-in-the-ass with stat differences.

    There's been nothing wrong and never will be with leaving it at 100.
    Karxrida, Fennekin, Hobert and 16 others like this.
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