It's there to replicate the game, not the wi-fi meta.
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Poll for our default simulator tiering level
- Thread starter Aldaron
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I completely agree with level 100 being the purest form of battling, as mentioned, at that level all the stats really come together where a Pokemon can really take its true competitive form. Keep in mind, unless I am horribly mistaken, one can still play level 100 battles between 2 regular players manually, you know, like in the old days. The simulators don't simulate wifi, they simulate the 1 on 1 metagame that has been standard since RBY. At the end of the day Smogon is a simulator Pokemon metagame, and unless we want to cater more to wifi, we should stay level 100, and we should keep that tradition going forward into the future.
Also, training to level 100 ain't hard you sillies.
Also, training to level 100 ain't hard you sillies.
Is the LV50 battling over Wifi enforced, or just a convenient option? If it's impossible to get LV100 Pokemon to stay at LV100 for Wifi battles, that's something we'd have to follow, but if it's just that we have the option to hit an auto-level button to LV50 but not to LV100, who cares?
sim·u·late
tr.v. sim·u·lat·ed, sim·u·lat·ing, sim·u·lates
1.
a. To have or take on the appearance, form, or sound of; imitate.
b. To make in imitation of or as a substitute for.
If wifi battles in cartridges are at level 50, but battles on simulators are at level 100. It is doing a damn bad job at being a simulator and it is NOT an imitation or substitute of regular wifi battles
The point of the sim is to replicate what's possible. If realism was ever to be taken into account we might as well have banned Hidden Power and perfect IV's.
But it is not really replicating what competitive battles would be like on the cartridge.
It is enforced over wi-fi, I am pretty sure at least.
The only reason I support level 50 is because it unifies things just a little bit with the official Pokemon competitive play. It isn't exactly the same environment, but it does unify damage expectations and EV training. Being able to train ourselves for what to expect damage wise, and not having to worry about 248 EVs vs 252 EVs differences is pretty beneficial. It just smooths things out a little bit.
Again, it's not replicating the meta-game established by the rules that GameFreak put into place. Under that train of logic, once people learn how to hack these games and get all their pokemon to 100 instantly, we would have to completely reevaluate the metagame and shift back to 100.
We're replicating what's possible in the game, not what shape the in-game meta takes.
On the first point, the relationship is only 'clear' to us because it was the de facto standard since battle simulation began. Seasoned veterans can tell you most of the important numbers (speed tiers, important hp cutoffs, general IV spreads to barely avoid a specific threat with a general pokemon, etc.), because they're familiar with them. Newer players clearly won't have the benefit of that familiarity. The formulas used to calculate the various stats we use work just as well with level 50s as they do with 100s, or 75s, or any other level we so desire. A formula being set specifically at level 100 won't make any more or any less sense than that same formula at level 50. This actually stands as a mild rebuttal of your claim, as the older players who already know the current system would be at an advantage over the newer players who have yet to attain familiarity with it. Having both sides become accustomed to a new cap, together, would be much more suitable to the doctrine you mentioned.
On the second point, you are absolutely correct. In fact, any level between (and inclusive of) 1 and 100 is possible. Even more truthfully, certain pokemon shouldn't exist at level 50 (Dragonite, Goodra, Mewtwo, etc.). However, in the trainer battles on X and Y, both teams get capped to level 50. And that definitely does not conflict with the mechanics of the game, as it -is- a mechanic of the game.
On the third point, what potential is lost by having the cap at 50? You've seen the minor, trifling differences above. Moves based on the users level lose a slight bit of power, most moves in general gain a slight increase in power, speed tiers get a bit more interesting, Dragon Rage becomes a move worth consideration in lower-tier play. Where in that does a single pokemon lose all competitive viability and not retain even the -potential- to earn a spot on a team? Scaling levels doesn't affect the base stats of the pokemon in question at all: they merely scale them to the same level. A level 50 Mewtwo will dominate amongst a field of level 50s just as much as a level 100 Mewtwo would dominate against a field of level 100s. It's just how level scaling works.
And on the fourth point, I'm not exactly sure how Smogon handles it. However, we at Showdown! have always been looking to recreate the authentic battle experiences as accurately as possible. I could regale you on hours I've spent Metronoming both in-game and on Showdown! to see how certain moves interacted when chained off of it. I can't say exactly how we're going to approach this, as plenty of people enjoy the current standard of the lv100 cap. However, from the view of those who want to perfectly emulate the battle experience, moving the cap to level 50 will be a desired change, as that is what people will be seeing when they battle each other in real life, and likely how any Nintendo-hosted competitive events for X/Y will be handled.
Gonna have to agree with Cherub Agent here. Playing with Pokemon at level 100 just feels way more satisfying and plain fun than using them at half their potential, and it's not like the wifi metagame FORCES you to run Pokemon at level 50. I have been playing competitive Pokemon ever since gen 4, which is not a lot compared to quite a few other individuals here, but I believe that I have experienced enough of the level 100 metagame to know I would rather stick with it than change simply because 50 is the 'standard' in the other metagame. Emphasis on standard, because at the risk of being redundant, standard doesn't mean forced.
That being said, I also understand the points the level 50 side is trying to make, but I am just gonna have to stick with 100 this time for the sake of tradition, and a more healthy and fun metagame(IMO) in general that does not break from what is actually possible within the cartridge.
That being said, I also understand the points the level 50 side is trying to make, but I am just gonna have to stick with 100 this time for the sake of tradition, and a more healthy and fun metagame(IMO) in general that does not break from what is actually possible within the cartridge.
Too bad you cannot use a simulator in any tournaments
So, you basically want to ignore everything about the cartridges despite being the real thing? Also, you would not have to reavulate anything because the meta would still be 50 anyway.
Can we get an official clarity statement on this? I'm looking at the first post and the first two paragraphs seem to be very different things.
If we take the third bolded section as frankly unjustified hyperbole, it sure sounds like it's just an option. If this is the case, I for one have changed my mind since my initial vote for LV50. I would be willing to believe that many people have been voting for LV50 simply because Aldaron made confusing statements that lead to them misjudging the situation.
If it was just bigger number, whatever.
But as has been said, 50 vs 100 actually mechanically change how stats pan out
The goal of a sim is to have what is similar to a normal wifi battle, but with meta rules (clauses, tiering, so on) hard enforced and to save the leg work of breeding perf evs/SRing/Xfering from 3rd gen/etc
If you really want wishmence on wifi you'll get one. You wont level to 100 because its fucking pointless
But as has been said, 50 vs 100 actually mechanically change how stats pan out
The goal of a sim is to have what is similar to a normal wifi battle, but with meta rules (clauses, tiering, so on) hard enforced and to save the leg work of breeding perf evs/SRing/Xfering from 3rd gen/etc
If you really want wishmence on wifi you'll get one. You wont level to 100 because its fucking pointless
The point of a simulator is to simulate the game. The metagame and the game are not the same thing. The simulator is not supposed to emulate how people play in wifi, just the game that they are playing. As long as what we can do in the simulator is possible in-game, we have succeeded as a simulator.
But they're not merged. At 50, the stats from the species will play in exactly, instead of being doubled. The difference between a 525 and 400 is 125, not 250. It even things out a little bit. Level 100 also requires a different spread of EVs than 50 (252, 252, 4 vs 248, 248, 8), so that will affect the meta. As well as move differences (Seismic Toss, Dragon Rage, etc)
The auto-level 100 thing was referencing HGSS, where it exsisted and was the ONLY game to feature that.
For anyone who enjoys playing Smogon tiers online on cartridges: this is the first generation we've had where we had no easy route to receive level 100 Pokemon. DPPHGSS had auto level 100. BW had the advantage of having a fully dissected DS so that the lack of auto level 100 was not as painful as you could still do stuff like give yourself infinite rare candies or simply create legal hacks.
X&Y has none of these, meaning that the only way to get level 100 competitive Pokemon is to actually painstakingly train them to level 100. Level 100 battles are still perfectly possible on a cartridge, but it is an enormous, time consuming strain on the user that could be easily eliminated by dropping the standard level to level 50. With Destiny Knot and Horde battle EV training making breeding and EV trading much simpler, leveling Pokemon up to 100 is arguably one of if not the hardest part of raising a Pokemon for competitive play.
I say that if you want to play on a cartridge and you want to play Smogon's rule sets easily that you vote for the level 50 option.
X&Y has none of these, meaning that the only way to get level 100 competitive Pokemon is to actually painstakingly train them to level 100. Level 100 battles are still perfectly possible on a cartridge, but it is an enormous, time consuming strain on the user that could be easily eliminated by dropping the standard level to level 50. With Destiny Knot and Horde battle EV training making breeding and EV trading much simpler, leveling Pokemon up to 100 is arguably one of if not the hardest part of raising a Pokemon for competitive play.
I say that if you want to play on a cartridge and you want to play Smogon's rule sets easily that you vote for the level 50 option.
No, I don't want to ignore everything about the cartridges despite them being the real thing, but I can't seem to fathom why the wifi meta should entirely dictate the way Smogon sets up its own meta. They're separate things, and from what I understand Smogon is about properly representing the games, not the metagames.
They're different things, you know?
Edit: You know, Manaphy, I feel like we're just repeating each other's points over and over.
if it aint broke why change it?
how is it that admins who only play balanced hackmons and wifi battlers who are indifferent about sims get the say in a metagame played by competitive battleres who actually give a fuck about the mechanics?
get ur shit together smogon, this will lose u more competitive players to po than you gain from "wifi battlers"
how is it that admins who only play balanced hackmons and wifi battlers who are indifferent about sims get the say in a metagame played by competitive battleres who actually give a fuck about the mechanics?
get ur shit together smogon, this will lose u more competitive players to po than you gain from "wifi battlers"
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Mechanically, You can only battle people (at least Random people, which i know is the most done thing on the sims) at level 50, there is no way to battle a random person at level 100.
Are we removing perfect IVs and uncommon event Pokemon, like Wish Blissey, from the teambuilder?
Grinding 6 Pokemon to level 100 Pokemon is significantly easier than getting the things I just mentioned, so the removal of them would help us make the gap between simulator and Wi-Fi players even smaller!
Grinding 6 Pokemon to level 100 Pokemon is significantly easier than getting the things I just mentioned, so the removal of them would help us make the gap between simulator and Wi-Fi players even smaller!
1. Perfect EV's are now actually decently easy to get now, and the event pokemon, while rare, are probably still possible to have.
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