Other Poll: Steel - Nerfed or Buffed?

[dkkc19]

True, the most reliable ghost moves are shadow ball and claw. However, either one is tough to deal with when there's nothing to resist it with. Sure, you can argue that you can switch to a normal type, but outside of the ghost immunity there's not a lot of reason to run most normals. The biggest thing to mention about ghosts is that there's not a lot of them which does help mitigate the problem somewhat. However, I can see in a few generations (at most) that we have the same problem we did with BW and the dragons. If you were to add say 10 more ghosts over the next couple gens the threat goes up immensely.

I can also promise that most pokemon won't walk away from Chandelure's Shadow Ball, 80 Base Power or no.

Although, how many sweepers do you know that don't run a boosting item? Not many out of say set up sweepers that appreciate leftovers.

They may not have a draco meteor, but they do plenty of damage without it.

The pokemon that hit like a truck with their ghost stab....
Mismagius, M-Banette, and Trick Room/Nasty Plot Cofagrigus for pure ghost types.
Gengar, Flare Boost Drifblim, Chandleure, Frosslass can hit pretty hard with its dual STAB, Golurk, Aegislash (dear lord that thing is a monster), and Jellicent can hit stupid hard if you focus on its offenses.

Mind you, some of them hit a lot harder than others, but they'll all be extremely dangerous in their respective tiers. Shoot, even traditionally 'bulky ghosts' can be threatening with the lack of resistances in the metagame.

A +2 Spiritomb is no laughing matter when you're unable to get a solid resist/immunity in on it either.

Yes, many of them need to set up, but how is that different from say D-Dance Dragonite? Except unlike before, you can't tank the +2 shadow ball with steels.

Right now, I'd have to say offensively they're by far the best type, and that's always dangerous territory to be in.

The fact that we have 5 pseudo legendary Dragons speaks for itself. Dragons not only have better Attack/SpAttack and better moves, but they have better Pokemons and most of them can take hits without any problem.

I can't disagree about the Pokemons you listed, they all hit hard, but they are frail (except for Aegislash, Cofagrigus, Spiritomb and Jellicent) Gengar and Mismagius can be 2hko and even 1hko by some unboosted neutral attacks.

Yes they hit hard, yes they have the best coverage in the meta game, but I don't think Ghosts will become a problem like Dragons used to be. They can become a problem if Gamefreak starts adding some strong legendary/pseudo legendary/high stats all around Ghosts. But so far we don't have a ghost equivalent of Garchomp, Dragonite or Hydreigon. The latest addition to the Ghost family, Hoopa looks very disappointing so far.

And, in case Gamefreak started adding stronger Ghosts, they can balance it out by adding strong half Normal types, like they tried (and failed) to do this generation. You could make a case that almost all ghosts learn Focus Blast, but Focus Blast is not an attack you can count on.

Pyroar could've been an excellent anti-Aegislash Pokemon had Gamefreak gave it a decent ability and a way to set up and raise its decent SpAtk.

And yeah, I agree Ghosts are the best offensive type this generation, but I'd say that Dark are also very close, if not as good because no one is immune to Dark and because of Sucker Punch and Knock Off (The most spammable attack in the meta-game imo).

 

[BlazeTemplar]

The fact that we have 5 pseudo legendary Dragons speaks for itself. Dragons not only have better Attack/SpAttack and better moves, but they have better Pokemons and most of them can take hits without any problem.

I can't disagree about the Pokemons you listed, they all hit hard, but they are frail (except for Aegislash, Cofagrigus, Spiritomb and Jellicent) Gengar and Mismagius can be 2hko and even 1hko by some unboosted neutral attacks.

Yes they hit hard, yes they have the best coverage in the meta game, but I don't think Ghosts will become a problem like Dragons used to be. They can become a problem if Gamefreak starts adding some strong legendary/pseudo legendary/high stats all around Ghosts. But so far we don't have a ghost equivalent of Garchomp, Dragonite or Hydreigon. The latest addition to the Ghost family, Hoopa looks very disappointing so far.

And, in case Gamefreak started adding stronger Ghosts, they can balance it out by adding strong half Normal types, like they tried (and failed) to do this generation. You could make a case that almost all ghosts learn Focus Blast, but Focus Blast is not an attack you can count on.

Pyroar could've been an excellent anti-Aegislash Pokemon had Gamefreak gave it a decent ability and a way to set up and raise its decent SpAtk.

And yeah, I agree Ghosts are the best offensive type this generation, but I'd say that Dark are also very close, if not as good because no one is immune to Dark and because of Sucker Punch and Knock Off (The most spammable attack in the meta-game imo).

The biggest differences between dark and ghost is more things resist dark than ghost. Yes, there's an immunity, but let's be honest. Few people run normals and with good reason.

As to pyroar, it still wouldn't have been a perfect counter unless it got something to cover that fighting weakness. I guess you could run chople on it... (Sacred sword from aegislash after all.)

As to pseudo legendary pokemon, they do seem to be devoted to dragons (mostly), and with the nerfs dragons got this gen, that's fine. Garchomp/Haxorus/Salamence/etc are solid threats but rather easy to overwhelm if you're prepared for threats like them.

Shoot, I beat a dragonite with Floatzel once. It was fun to do too xD

We've already seen just how amazing a legendary ghost is like in Giratina, but even if there's no 'uber ghosts' if they continue making potent ghost pokemon like Aegislash then we will see a major focus on the ghost type and with good reason. They're solid defensively (They're no steel type but immune to fighting and normal is a nice thing to have, not to mention the resists), and excellent in offense.

...But I can't argue about knock off. That move is everywhere now.

But, in all seriousness, Dark still has the same number of things resisting it while ghost has gotten one less thing that resists it. (even if that's no longer steel)

If you look at a gen 5 battle and a gen 6 battle, you'll notice a somewhat worrying change.

In gen 5, you could actually take a couple shadow balls if you had a steel type. Now, ghosts are able to 1-2 HKO most teams, and that's something I find that needs approached.

Basically, I get that Steel needed to have some balancing done. I may not like it since it is my favorite type, but I understand. However, something other than dark needed to have the ghost resist just to 1: give stall more viability 2: actually have a chance to counter a ghost sweep 3: not force you to use either a dark or normal type just to deal with a ghost (and aegislash takes out the resist/immunities with aplomb anyway)

 

[kingfrenchtoast]

With the loss of those two resistances, ghost has really become a spammable offensive type. I'm almost positive that the steel/psychic types took a hit, namely jirachi and metagross, who now can't readily take too many hits from gengar so easily. Knock Off is a pain, and now really hurts our fabled wishmaker.

 

[dkkc19]

The biggest differences between dark and ghost is more things resist dark than ghost. Yes, there's an immunity, but let's be honest. Few people run normals and with good reason.

As to pyroar, it still wouldn't have been a perfect counter unless it got something to cover that fighting weakness. I guess you could run chople on it... (Sacred sword from aegislash after all.)

As to pseudo legendary pokemon, they do seem to be devoted to dragons (mostly), and with the nerfs dragons got this gen, that's fine. Garchomp/Haxorus/Salamence/etc are solid threats but rather easy to overwhelm if you're prepared for threats like them.

Shoot, I beat a dragonite with Floatzel once. It was fun to do too xD

We've already seen just how amazing a legendary ghost is like in Giratina, but even if there's no 'uber ghosts' if they continue making potent ghost pokemon like Aegislash then we will see a major focus on the ghost type and with good reason. They're solid defensively (They're no steel type but immune to fighting and normal is a nice thing to have, not to mention the resists), and excellent in offense.

...But I can't argue about knock off. That move is everywhere now.

But, in all seriousness, Dark still has the same number of things resisting it while ghost has gotten one less thing that resists it. (even if that's no longer steel)

If you look at a gen 5 battle and a gen 6 battle, you'll notice a somewhat worrying change.

In gen 5, you could actually take a couple shadow balls if you had a steel type. Now, ghosts are able to 1-2 HKO most teams, and that's something I find that needs approached.

Basically, I get that Steel needed to have some balancing done. I may not like it since it is my favorite type, but I understand. However, something other than dark needed to have the ghost resist just to 1: give stall more viability 2: actually have a chance to counter a ghost sweep 3: not force you to use either a dark or normal type just to deal with a ghost (and aegislash takes out the resist/immunities with aplomb anyway)

I've seen many Blisseys and Chanseys in OU, but they're almost the only normal type I see. (Other than the odd Staraptor or sometimes in rare cases Diggersby)

If Pyroar manages to get a safe switch in, Aegislash can't do anything to it unless it had its speed boosted.

252+ SpA Life Orb Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 320-377 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

It would be hard to get that switch in, since it can be obvious that you're gonna switch into Pyroar, but that depends the skill of the player you are playing against.

It's not that hard to beat those pseudo legendaries, but unless you had a Fairy or Steel Pokemon, you really don't want to take any stab hit from them. And then there is Charizard X, which can sweep teams on its own if it managed to get a Dragon Dance with its amazing typing (Neutral to most priorities and enough bulk to tank them) Dragons are not the same force of the previous generations, but they are still fearsome enough and one of the main reasons love to have Ice Beam and Ice attacks on their team.

As for beating Dragonite, I've beaten Kyurem-B, Garchomp, Dragonite and Goodra with my Scolipede. But it was not the Pokemons' fault, it was the fault of the other players who were stupid enough to let my Scolipede get a Sword Dance or a two.

I agree about Ghosts need to be resisted by something else than Dark. But most types are already strong enough. Maybe give it to Bug, which would make non-Steel Bugs more useful.

And as for Steel being nerfed, I don't think it got nerfed enough. I don't think Steel should resist Psychic and its still too OP. Hopefully they nerf it again in the next gen.

 

[BlazeTemplar]

I've seen many Blisseys and Chanseys in OU, but they're almost the only normal type I see. (Other than the odd Staraptor or sometimes in rare cases Diggersby)

If Pyroar manages to get a safe switch in, Aegislash can't do anything to it unless it had its speed boosted.

252+ SpA Life Orb Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 320-377 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

It would be hard to get that switch in, since it can be obvious that you're gonna switch into Pyroar, but that depends the skill of the player you are playing against.

It's not that hard to beat those pseudo legendaries, but unless you had a Fairy or Steel Pokemon, you really don't want to take any stab hit from them. And then there is Charizard X, which can sweep teams on its own if it managed to get a Dragon Dance with its amazing typing (Neutral to most priorities and enough bulk to tank them) Dragons are not the same force of the previous generations, but they are still fearsome enough and one of the main reasons love to have Ice Beam and Ice attacks on their team.

As for beating Dragonite, I've beaten Kyurem-B, Garchomp, Dragonite and Goodra with my Scolipede. But it was not the Pokemons' fault, it was the fault of the other players who were stupid enough to let my Scolipede get a Sword Dance or a two.

I agree about Ghosts need to be resisted by something else than Dark. But most types are already strong enough. Maybe give it to Bug, which would make non-Steel Bugs more useful.

And as for Steel being nerfed, I don't think it got nerfed enough. I don't think Steel should resist Psychic and its still too OP. Hopefully they nerf it again in the next gen.

Sure, Pyroar has the ability to (Possibly) one shot aegis if it's running the 252/252/4 spread. However, A 252HP/4ATK/252SD (or some variation) set with SD and weakness policy is also extremely viable, meaning as you hit with the fireblast it can then retaliate with a +2/4 Sacred sword (depending if it SD'd on the switch or something), and live relatively comfortably. Then, it can possibly get another SD up and wreck your life after it's dealt with pyroar. To say Aegis can't make life miserable when you have a pyroar around isn't entirely accurate.

To be entirely honest, I'd think banded Conkeldurr would probably be a better choice to deal with it (with EQ anyway) as it can take a fair amount of punishment, as well as most people run Sp def on Aegis anyway.

As to the pseudo legends, I think there's nothing more to be said about them that we haven't covered. Yes, they can threaten but a bit of prep easily handles them.

Hm, No, I don't think bug is the best choice as doing so turns a type that's currently something ghost resists into a SE type. If you give it to bug you'd have Ghost/Psychic/Dark/and Grass types wrecked by them. It'd be a type that hits 3 of the most popular types and arguably the best support type for SE damage.
Sure, the bug type doesn't get a lot of love, but most of that is because the majority of the bugs are lackluster. (Save for our steel clad buddies, which much of that is because they have amazing stats and the moves to abuse them.)

After all, this is the type that has things like Beedril, Butterfree, and Mothim. They can do things, but their stats are lackluster.

Personally, I thought ghost being resisted by steel made sense. After all ghosts are spirits, and how is a spirit going to harm metal? By banging on it? (At least lore wise anyway.)

Gen 5 steels were so popular for 2 major reasons. 1: They resisted dragons and could set up/ take out dragons with non stab moves (excluding scizor and his coveted BP) 2: The pokemon are monsters stat wise. Escav for example hits like a truck and has good bulk. Durant was fast, and between hustle and hone claws could wreck a lot of things, scizor spams BP and U-turn for momentum, metagross had amazing coverage and hit hard with it's impressive stats... The list just keeps going on, and the typing was only a portion of the reason. Shoot even things like steelix have top tier stats.

Point being, that the typing itself wasn't the entire issue and I think GF realized that. Besides Aegislash, how many amazing steels were introed this gen?

Yes, I'll concede that the debuff did help balance the meta out, but there was a reason that steel got the resist to psychic in the first place. Without steel's resist to psychic the only thing that would resist psychic would be psychic. (And since dark would be the only other option...) Between that and the ghost buff darks would be the most popular type just to try to deal with all the ghosts and psychics out there. Only a handful of things tank psychic hits as it is. Furthermore, by taking away that resist there would no longer be a reason to bring a fighting type to deal with steels as they no longer resist any of the 'supernatural' types. (dark types have plenty of other weaknesses that aren't weak to psychic after all)

Lore wise also is understandable why steel got the resist as steel represents will, determination, and resolve and psychic bends the wills of other living beings. If you're Iron willed that's not likely to happen.

As it is steel will continue to be a popular choice, but much of that is due to the great pokemon in the type, as well as the immunity to toxic.

 

[TheWhiteRose]

I think most people here do agree that steel got nerfed. Not many good and hard hitting steel types in OU top 50, partly due to the fact that there are very little strong steel moves (screw you scizor). Most steel types are tanks and things like ferrothorn and forretress are really feeling the pain from the lack of resistances. Knock off is annoying too (ggwp leftovers).
Still, I think it was a good move for a fresh start, away from the Gen 5 dragons and steels. Dark and ghost would be a tad bit overpowered IF there were good ghost and dark Pokemon (offensively) bar Darkrai, Gengar and Aegislash. I do think that they are fairly even now, since dark does get resisted by fairy too (altho there is a lack of fairies) and ghost lacking strong moves (shadow ball and phantom force perhaps?). Overall I like the current metagame as there is definitely much more versatility compared to the previous gens.

 

[dkkc19]

Sure, Pyroar has the ability to (Possibly) one shot aegis if it's running the 252/252/4 spread. However, A 252HP/4ATK/252SD (or some variation) set with SD and weakness policy is also extremely viable, meaning as you hit with the fireblast it can then retaliate with a +2/4 Sacred sword (depending if it SD'd on the switch or something), and live relatively comfortably. Then, it can possibly get another SD up and wreck your life after it's dealt with pyroar. To say Aegis can't make life miserable when you have a pyroar around isn't entirely accurate.

To be entirely honest, I'd think banded Conkeldurr would probably be a better choice to deal with it (with EQ anyway) as it can take a fair amount of punishment, as well as most people run Sp def on Aegis anyway.

As to the pseudo legends, I think there's nothing more to be said about them that we haven't covered. Yes, they can threaten but a bit of prep easily handles them.

Hm, No, I don't think bug is the best choice as doing so turns a type that's currently something ghost resists into a SE type. If you give it to bug you'd have Ghost/Psychic/Dark/and Grass types wrecked by them. It'd be a type that hits 3 of the most popular types and arguably the best support type for SE damage.
Sure, the bug type doesn't get a lot of love, but most of that is because the majority of the bugs are lackluster. (Save for our steel clad buddies, which much of that is because they have amazing stats and the moves to abuse them.)

After all, this is the type that has things like Beedril, Butterfree, and Mothim. They can do things, but their stats are lackluster.

Personally, I thought ghost being resisted by steel made sense. After all ghosts are spirits, and how is a spirit going to harm metal? By banging on it? (At least lore wise anyway.)

Gen 5 steels were so popular for 2 major reasons. 1: They resisted dragons and could set up/ take out dragons with non stab moves (excluding scizor and his coveted BP) 2: The pokemon are monsters stat wise. Escav for example hits like a truck and has good bulk. Durant was fast, and between hustle and hone claws could wreck a lot of things, scizor spams BP and U-turn for momentum, metagross had amazing coverage and hit hard with it's impressive stats... The list just keeps going on, and the typing was only a portion of the reason. Shoot even things like steelix have top tier stats.

Point being, that the typing itself wasn't the entire issue and I think GF realized that. Besides Aegislash, how many amazing steels were introed this gen?

Yes, I'll concede that the debuff did help balance the meta out, but there was a reason that steel got the resist to psychic in the first place. Without steel's resist to psychic the only thing that would resist psychic would be psychic. (And since dark would be the only other option...) Between that and the ghost buff darks would be the most popular type just to try to deal with all the ghosts and psychics out there. Only a handful of things tank psychic hits as it is. Furthermore, by taking away that resist there would no longer be a reason to bring a fighting type to deal with steels as they no longer resist any of the 'supernatural' types. (dark types have plenty of other weaknesses that aren't weak to psychic after all)

Lore wise also is understandable why steel got the resist as steel represents will, determination, and resolve and psychic bends the wills of other living beings. If you're Iron willed that's not likely to happen.

As it is steel will continue to be a popular choice, but much of that is due to the great pokemon in the type, as well as the immunity to toxic.

Can a banded Conkeldurr take more than 2 Shadow Balls? I thought it was generally agreed that AV Conk is the best Conk because I don't remember the last time I've seen a non AV Conk.

I'm not saying Bug should be SE against Ghost. Ghost should resist Bug and Bug should resist Ghost. I think Ghosts are fine the way they are defensively and don't need another weakness because as I said earlier most of them a frail and can be killed by neutral attacks. Bug have the worst offensive coverage being able to hit only 3 types and resisted by 7, so it might be nice to give Bugs a defensive buff to make them a better defensive typing.

The other new steel type was Klefki and Mega Aggron, and both of them are good, but not on the same tier of goodness of Aegislash.

This is for another thread/discussion but Psychics are in a dire need of a buff and on the both sides. They way you say it makes sense why Steel resists Psychic. But I can't think of a better way to buff Psycichs without making them broken other than make then neutral to steel and giving them one more resistance.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Sure, Pyroar has the ability to (Possibly) one shot aegis if it's running the 252/252/4 spread. However, A 252HP/4ATK/252SD (or some variation) set with SD and weakness policy is also extremely viable, meaning as you hit with the fireblast it can then retaliate with a +2/4 Sacred sword (depending if it SD'd on the switch or something), and live relatively comfortably. Then, it can possibly get another SD up and wreck your life after it's dealt with pyroar. To say Aegis can't make life miserable when you have a pyroar around isn't entirely accurate.

To be entirely honest, I'd think banded Conkeldurr would probably be a better choice to deal with it (with EQ anyway) as it can take a fair amount of punishment, as well as most people run Sp def on Aegis anyway.

Neither Pyroar nor CB Conkeldurr has any business in OU and no one runs SpDef on Aegislash at all, wtf...

Hm, No, I don't think bug is the best choice as doing so turns a type that's currently something ghost resists into a SE type. If you give it to bug you'd have Ghost/Psychic/Dark/and Grass types wrecked by them. It'd be a type that hits 3 of the most popular types and arguably the best support type for SE damage.
Sure, the bug type doesn't get a lot of love, but most of that is because the majority of the bugs are lackluster. (Save for our steel clad buddies, which much of that is because they have amazing stats and the moves to abuse them.)

Resisting a type doesnt mean you hit it supereffectively, Fighting and Bug resist eachother, Ghost does seem a little too strong offensively atm and Bug is certainly not a great type both offensively or defensively.

Point being, that the typing itself wasn't the entire issue and I think GF realized that. Besides Aegislash, how many amazing steels were introed this gen?

Klefki arguably, which coincidentally sums up all the steel types that have been introduced this gen...

As it is steel will continue to be a popular choice, but much of that is due to the great pokemon in the type, as well as the immunity to toxic.

Most of them are great (at least partly) due to the type, change Skarmory's steel type to something else and you're left with a very mediocre pokemon, Scizor without the Steel typing would find it much harder to Pivot with U-Turn or fill it's role as defogger, etc.

Steel is simply the best defensive type in the game and the typing alone is what makes a lot of pokemon viable/good.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I blame steel types loss of resistance to dark and ghost, for creating Ghost Spam. It's so difficult now to cover your Ghost Weaknesses since both Dark and Normal are weak to an extremely common move type that something from the rest of your team is bound to be weak to. Hitting Fairy for SE wasn't worth the loss. . .

 

[BlazeTemplar]

Neither Pyroar nor CB Conkeldurr has any business in OU and no one runs SpDef on Aegislash at all, wtf...




Resisting a type doesnt mean you hit it supereffectively, Fighting and Bug resist eachother, Ghost does seem a little too strong offensively atm and Bug is certainly not a great type both offensively or defensively.




Klefki arguably, which coincidentally sums up all the steel types that have been introduced this gen...



Most of them are great (at least partly) due to the type, change Skarmory's steel type to something else and you're left with a very mediocre pokemon, Scizor without the Steel typing would find it much harder to Pivot with U-Turn or fill it's role as defogger, etc.

Steel is simply the best defensive type in the game and the typing alone is what makes a lot of pokemon viable/good.

I meant with the last 4 points -_- Sorry, should have phrased that better. And while assualt vest conk is a beast, the viability of CB conk isn't completely gone either.

And yeah, I'll give you that. Misunderstood what he meant. That might be a viable change.

One of the reasons that klefki is so good is arguably more because of it's fairy typing and it's prankster ability. It turns the weakness to fighting into neutral, and has a resist to dark because of fairy typing.

Yes, skarmory would have a bit more trouble if it was say... Normal or ghost typing, but since the best way to kill skarmory is with a fireblast or T-bolt the way to kill the bird hasn't really ever changed. it'd be similar to say noctowl (but physically based) the biggest perk for Skarm for being a steel type is it's immunity to toxic as if it could be it'd be an easy way to kill it.
Yes, typing is a helpful thing, and losing a good typing hurts, but it doesn't completely undermine their roles. Their base stats help with that. If skarm was a norm/fly it'd still be used because of how stupidly hard it is to kill.

 

[BananitoTime]

Nerfed.
It was ruined quite a bit. For example, the buff of Knock Off is a big trouble,and with the buff of Defog,Bisharp and Defiant Thundurus can use it vs.steel,pokes such as Aegislash,Jirachi and Metagross can be raped,and so on.
The Fairy resistance isn't very important imo,but overall being SE on Fairies is like an illusion: the two main fairies,Mawile-Mega and Azumarill,take neutrale damage,and in some cases they can rape you with Fire Fang/Superpower.

(Sorry if there's any bad grammar,I'm Italian e.e)

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

And while assualt vest conk is a beast, the viability of CB conk isn't completely gone either.

Yes it is, Conk wouldn't even be OU if it wasn't for assault vest, CB is much too reliant on Mach Punch which a ton of things resist.

One of the reasons that klefki is so good is arguably more because of it's fairy typing and it's prankster ability. It turns the weakness to fighting into neutral, and has a resist to dark because of fairy typing.

It's a combination of both, I'd still say the steel typing is more important though.

Yes, skarmory would have a bit more trouble if it was say... Normal or ghost typing, ...it'd be similar to say noctowl.
If skarm was a norm/fly it'd still be used because of how stupidly hard it is to kill.

And what tier, pray tell, was Noctowl in last gen?

 

[BlazeTemplar]

Yes it is, Conk wouldn't even be OU if it wasn't for assault vest, CB is much too reliant on Mach Punch which a ton of things resist.



It's a combination of both, I'd still say the steel typing is more important though.



And what tier, pray tell, was Noctowl in last gen?

Noctowl also had much lower stats and focused on SP defense and no reliable way to remove toxic.

And yes again, Assault is the better item, but it still can be viable. You'd need to plan the team a bit though so *Shrugs*

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Noctowl also had much lower stats and focused on SP defense and no reliable way to remove toxic.

Noctowl's Special bulk is nearly identical to Skarmory's Physical bulk and while Toxic is an issue Noctowl does have access to Psycho Shift.

The bigger deal is simply normal being a much worse defensive typing than Steel and the SR neutrality that steel brings to skarmory.

 

[dkkc19]

If Skarmory was Normal/Flying nobody would use it, it doesn't have a really great ability and its bulk is useless when everything hits you for neutral damage along with weakness to the common Ice and Rock.

Is there any normal flying Pokemon used in OU aside from Staraptor? Staraptor is used for its gigantic attack and great ability, not for its typing.

 

[HNA]

Yes, typing is a helpful thing, and losing a good typing hurts, but it doesn't completely undermine their roles. Their base stats help with that. If skarm was a norm/fly it'd still be used because of how stupidly hard it is to kill.

Say hello to Mantine, the special counter part of Skarmory.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Say hello to Mantine, the special counter part of Skarmory.

I feel Mantine is more hampered by lack of recovery (outside of RestTalk) rather than typing and it's SR weakness further amplifies this, if it did get Roost it'd be a solid check to stuff like Keldeo.

 

[Rotosect]

Mantine also lacks Skarmory's utility, since it can't phaze or lay down entry hazards, making it complete set-up bait.
Imagine if Forretress didn't have access to hazards or Rapid Spin - you could bet it would be down in the depths of NU, much like Mawile was until it got its mega evolution.

 

[Full_Korbe]

Is there any normal flying Pokemon used in OU aside from Staraptor? Staraptor is used for its gigantic attack and great ability, not for its typing.

Well, Normal is a terrible defensive typing, but it's not a bad offensive typing by any means. It's only resisted by two types, both weak to Fighting (and he has Close Combat), and Ghost is immune, but you have Brave Bird for that.
It's funny, but I think if he was Steel / Flying (and well, with Iron Head at least), he would be less used. It would be 100% countered by Rotom-W / Zapdos, lose a powerful STAB (Iron Head is nothing to write home about), etc...
Most Normal Flying are just crappy. Apart from Staraptor, there is only Braviary who is decent, but low speed and only decent bulk are not enough (but I agree with a different typing he would be... slighty more used ?), and Swellow who needs its Normal typing for Facade.

I'm not saying that Normal is better than Steel, because it would be stupid. But Normal is a fairly decent offensive typing, especially combined with some others (just imagine Bibarel with, you know, decent stats).

Mantine is also completely outclassed by Jellicent, who has more utility, a better typing imo and Recovery. And Jellicent is not used anymore.

About the main topic, Steel got obviously nerfed. Most Specially Defensive set (Skarmory, TrapperZor) are now ineffective because they just don't resist enough things. Lore-wise, it makes sense : Steel-Pokemon would be sturdy physical wall, not special ones.
However, the Ghost-spamming is just awful. I would not mind something else having a Ghost resistance (Bug or Poison ?), just for the sake to have something that resist Shadow Ball and is not weak to Focus Blast. Overall, apart of that and the obvious Psychic crappiness (srsly, give them a Fairy resistance at least), the balance is quite good.

 

[Deleted User 220884]

steel got nerfed

my specs gengar 2kos most ferrothorns that try to switch in, and sometimes ohko with a crit
scizor gets 2ko by shadow ball

sucker punch does heavy damage to steel types
and foul play, since most steels are physical with lots of attack or average attack
even getting the fairy resistance and new attacking advantage.

edited*
yeah I also forgot, pokemon like Jirachi or Metagross used to be OU, now down in UU, because knock off, shadow ball, and any other strong ghost or dark move litterally destroys them.

 

[Felony]

Yeah the Ghost spam is pretty ridiculous, I think most people would agree that Dark and Ghost resists are more important than tanking a fairy move/being super effective against fairys. Steel-types are definitely not as valuable as they once have been on the defensive side. In my opinion, Jirachi was the Pokemon that really did not appreciate it. It's definitely not bad in XY, but it doesn't perform up to par compared to other generations and I think taking away these two resists is definitely a reason. I also agree with Full_Korbe, I wouldn't mind something else having a ghost resistance either.

 

[dkkc19]

Well, Normal is a terrible defensive typing, but it's not a bad offensive typing by any means. It's only resisted by two types, both weak to Fighting (and he has Close Combat), and Ghost is immune, but you have Brave Bird for that.
It's funny, but I think if he was Steel / Flying (and well, with Iron Head at least), he would be less used. It would be 100% countered by Rotom-W / Zapdos, lose a powerful STAB (Iron Head is nothing to write home about), etc...
Most Normal Flying are just crappy. Apart from Staraptor, there is only Braviary who is decent, but low speed and only decent bulk are not enough (but I agree with a different typing he would be... slighty more used ?), and Swellow who needs its Normal typing for Facade.

I'm not saying that Normal is better than Steel, because it would be stupid. But Normal is a fairly decent offensive typing, especially combined with some others (just imagine Bibarel with, you know, decent stats).

Mantine is also completely outclassed by Jellicent, who has more utility, a better typing imo and Recovery. And Jellicent is not used anymore.

About the main topic, Steel got obviously nerfed. Most Specially Defensive set (Skarmory, TrapperZor) are now ineffective because they just don't resist enough things. Lore-wise, it makes sense : Steel-Pokemon would be sturdy physical wall, not special ones.
However, the Ghost-spamming is just awful. I would not mind something else having a Ghost resistance (Bug or Poison ?), just for the sake to have something that resist Shadow Ball and is not weak to Focus Blast. Overall, apart of that and the obvious Psychic crappiness (srsly, give them a Fairy resistance at least), the balance is quite good.

Staraptor won't appreciate a Steel typing because Steel is a defensive Typing. Staraptor would kill to be Fire/Flying (Imagine STAB Flare Blitzs + Reckless coming off a 120 attack) Braviary would better off being Fighting/Flying (Loses SR weakness and gains STAB Superpower)

 

[supercoven94]

Steel is nerfed without doubt, especially defensive steel type mons, scizor or genesect doesn't really mind losing the resistance to dark and ghost but rachi and bronzong are very hurted by this loss because now they are weak to 2 more types. Other steels hurted are heatran and skarmory that cannot more eat overpowered shadow balls from the like of gengar or aegislash. Obviously this nerf was mandatory, if steel type wasn't nerfed Aegislash would be broken as hell.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Staraptor would kill to be Fire/Flying

Dno if the added sr weakness would be worth it, normal+flying+fighting gets pretty good coverage anyway.

 

[Full_Korbe]

Staraptor won't appreciate a Steel typing because Steel is a defensive Typing. Staraptor would kill to be Fire/Flying (Imagine STAB Flare Blitzs + Reckless coming off a 120 attack) Braviary would better off being Fighting/Flying (Loses SR weakness and gains STAB Superpower)

Of course Normal is always outclassed, but it's still not that bad (although Fighting / Flying Braviary would be awesome). A Fire-Flying Staraptor gains coverage on Steel, but lose to Rotom-W and even M-Scizor still takes a lot from Scarfed Brave Bird. Sure, you beat Aegislash, M-Mawile, Ferrothorn and Skarmory, but that's a trade-off I can accept, given how annoying Rotom can be. And Normal brings you a reliable STAB with no recoil, which is nice.
And with SR on, it's definitely going to kill itself even faster. I think that a Flare Blitz on Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn kills you.

I agree Normal is not great, but it still provides a niche to Staraptor. I'm unsure whether he would get it if he was something else (except Fighting).