This topic will serve to finally give an accurate enough definition or at least appraisal of what makes an uber an uber. At once the notion of "uber" is lofty and vague, seemingly as timeless as the Mona Lisa herself. The picture may indeed be worth a thousand words instead of a few dozen, but in the interests of having an accurate appraisal for the sake of competitive battle, and not just to impress some artsy-fartsy scene chick with your own reasoning behind why Mona Lisa is or is not smiling, a definition should be as clear and succinct as possible. As with art, we shouldn't kid ourselves and believe that a hard-and-fast definition of "uber" exists, one that everyone versed well enough in art will doubtless agree upon. As soon as we accept this, we can safely shoot for the sky and end up somewhere that is good enough for a definition of uber to be understood and accepted by the majority of people who understand competitive pokemon. So without further ado, I think we should start to list the characteristics of a pokemon that make it undeniably uber. I first brought this up in #insidescoop with the intention of continuing the discussion here, so I will repaste a few things. [23:57] <@Jumpman16> well we actually could start by listing the quailties that make Rayquaza so obviously uber [23:57] <@Jumpman16> assuming we all think it is [23:57] <+Obi> Yeah [23:57] <@Jumpman16> then see how many of those apply to other obvious ubers Two such quailties began to be chiseled away at, removing the fluff in the interests of succinctness. [00:02] <+Obi> I think it has to do with having a decent answer to its common set [00:03] <@Jumpman16> also "common" is a good thing to remember [00:03] <@Jumpman16> Sand Stream is common [00:03] <+Obi> Well [00:03] <+Obi> I didn't mean it that way [00:03] <@Jumpman16> and make Moonlight Cress not viable [00:04] <+Obi> I meant it in the sense of "The only counter to SD Chomp is Starmie. Starmie cannot switch into Scarf or CB. If I let SD Chomp get a free turn, I lose." somethihng like that [00:04] <@Jumpman16> i think "common" needs to be remembered in whatever definition we're trying to come up with [00:04] <@Jumpman16> what about yache, lol [00:04] <+Obi> I was just using that as an example [00:04] <@Jumpman16> i know [00:04] <+Obi> =p [00:04] <@Jumpman16> that's actually the point though [00:04] <@Jumpman16> without yache a lot less people think its uber [00:05] <+Earthworm> what are the most common circumstances in which you face the most common garchomp? [00:05] <+JabbaTheGriffin> sandstream, sr, sd yache chomp [00:05] <+IggyBot> Yache Berry [00:05] <+IggyBot> Stealth Rock [00:05] <@Jumpman16> at least one of SR, Sandstream, Spikes, T Spikes [00:06] <+IggyBot> Stealth Rock is almost a guarentee in every match [00:06] <+JabbaTheGriffin> it didn't used to be :/ [00:06] <+JabbaTheGriffin> stupid suicide sr leads [00:06] <+IggyBot> lol [00:07] <+JabbaTheGriffin> but in that kind of situation what makes a pokemon uber? [00:07] <@Jumpman16> at once the idea of "if the pokemon does not have to greatly hinder itself to dispel would-be counters to its common set sweeping, it is uber" hits me [00:07] <+JabbaTheGriffin> because in that scenario no pokemon can switch into chomp and win 100% of the time [00:08] <+JabbaTheGriffin> hmmm [00:23] <@Jumpman16> maybe if we append "how easily a pokemon a can sweep a team without risk to itself or its team" Right now, I would further modify this "uber quality" by saying something like: How easily a pokemon a can sweep a team in common battle conditions with little to no risk to itself or its team. This rules out, in getting at the definition of uber pokemon like Gyarados and Salamence, which have the ever-so-common Stealth Rock with which to contend, and pokemon like Dugtrio and Slaking, which, while being the very embodiment of "easy" and "power", bring risk to their teammates due to their respective nature (Duggy needs a CB to "sweep" at all, and Slaking's Truant Ability risks the safety of both it and its teammates, despite Slaking's own power). "Easily" is subjective and instantly problematic, but we can chip away at this and get a much better definition. [23:58] <@Jumpman16> to start, ray is "capable of sweeping standard with one turn of set up" [23:58] <+Earthworm> which? [23:59] <+Obi> I don't know what can switch into Rayquaza [23:59] <@Jumpman16> remember, this is in regard to standard, not uber [23:59] <+JabbaTheGriffin> well [23:59] <+Obi> But Kyogre has a good set of switch-ins [23:59] <+JabbaTheGriffin> groudon and lugia can switch in to ddray [23:59] <+JabbaTheGriffin> any other version and they're fucked [23:59] <@Jumpman16> we have to remember that this is in terms of OU pokemon [23:59] <@Jumpman16> not ubers [23:59] <+Obi> Rayquaza is just a beast [23:59] <@Jumpman16> ray rapes standard and is uber beacuse _______ [23:59] <+Obi> One Dragon Dance and nearly everything is dead You get the idea. To start at another characteristic: Capable of sweeping standard in common battle conditions with one turn of set up or less. Later, there was: [00:20] <@Jumpman16> also, if it does indeed have both offensive and defensive uber qualities, that's all the more for it being uber [00:21] <@Jumpman16> so "borderline ubers" like mew and manaphy would have those added in their "favor" which we can get to in time. Right now I'm going to go ahead and open the floor for other "characteristics of an uber" and for people to further chisel away at. I really feel that a list with enough succinct characteristics will aid us in determining what is obviously uber and what isn't, even if we'll never come to a perfect definition so we can go forward with our many Suspect tests. Because hey, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether or why the Mona Lisa is smiling—what does matter is whether you were able to get into that scene chick's pants (if you're into that kind of girl). edit: the fruits of our labor should be on the first page: Offensive Characteristic A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort. Defensive Characteristic A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame. Support Characteristic A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.