Porygon2 (Full Revamp) +

[Bourbon]

The reason Discharge is the main option is that Discharge is really the only way Porygon2 can threaten anything that isn't weak to it's attacks (outside of Toxic). During my playtesting, Discharge got plenty of lucky paralysis on a lot of problem Pokemon, such as Gengar, and a Heatran locked into Earth Power that stayed in on me. Sure, Thunderbolt can do 90% minimum, but Discharge does 75% minimum. And Gyarados really never leads anymore, so it will likely take Stealth Rock damage, or at least a hit of some kind.

Discharge vs 4/0 Gyarados: 75%-88.25%
Thunderbolt vs 4/0 Gyarados: 88.55%-104.22%

And my spread takes less physical damage, which is the purpose of the set. Gyarados neutral LO Waterfall...

232/238 Porygon2: 38.21%-45.26%
252/216 Porygon2: 38.50%-45.45%

Starmie's Surf...

232/0 Porygon2: 29%-34.15%
252/0 Porygon2: 28.61%-33.69%

So basically you exchange slight increased physical durability for slightly lowered special durabiliy... but it's not enough to notice. However, since 369 is a Leftovers + 1 number, I would like to keep it the way it is. You lower Stealth Rock damage a bit.





As LR pointed out, Porygon2 can kind of provide a "check" to DDmence, just like Starmie provides a "check" to Gyarados, but as Porygon2 takes as much as 72% from this endeavor, I decided I would not advertise it as much as other Pokemon he can deal with.

Dealt with the slashitis on the first set.

 

[crystalvelox]

I was thinking that discharge might be better than thunderbolt on the TrickSpecs. With 136 SpA EVs and choice specs discharge is plenty powerful enough without the extra 15 base damage that Tbolt has.

Against gyarados 4 Hp/0 SpD after choice specs are gone would be 90.40%-106.35%. So with life orb or stealth rock damage it is a given OHKO.

So thunderbolt is not really needed I think just for extra power.

Once choice specs has been used up, discharge with 30% para gives porygon2 more merit in doing multiple roles. P2 counters pokemon like salamence, gyarados, and few other fore mentioned pokemon, cripples some pokemon like blissey with being limited to one move when trick is used. And if all goes well P2 can give paralysis to a pokemon before finally fainting from how much use it got.

 

[Bourbon]

Interesting proposition. Makes sense to me, I will make the change.

 

[Darkmalice]

I think HP Fire with Base Power of 60 should be mentioned as an option. It sounds crazy, but Porygon-2 can copy Technician, boosting the power of HP Fire to 90, and then OHKO Scizor. Scizor is the 2nd most common OU pokemon, and being able to counter him is very useful. HP Fire also hits Steels and Bugs harder than Discharge and Ice Beam, but Scizor is the main reason for 60 HP Fire.

 

[Bourbon]

Scizor is also faster than Porygon2 and can OHKO with Swords Danced Brick Break or Superpower.

Porygon2 is not a good scizor counter. Bullet Punch does like 58-68% to Bold 252/252.

 

[Imran]

"Returns",

Very minor nitpick, but shouldn't the comma be inside the speech mark?

Didn't notice anything else though, good job ;)

 

[cim]

Seconding that Discharge is mandatory on the standard anit-gyaramence tank. It's what makes Pory2 better than say Cresselia (other than Recover and Trace too) and being able to do something other than "threat counter" is always nice. Especially good when you nail a Heatran.

 

[Bourbon]

Pretty pissed. Recycle is not implemented on Shoddy yet, so one of the best options for the Specially Defensive Duck is moot. I have, however, gotten it to work on Wifi. It takes laughable damage from special attackers like Zapdos, Starmie, Yanmega, Heatran and more. Pretty much anything other than Azelf, Gengar and Porygon-Z can be handled quite nicely.

Recycle + Leppa is pretty good when facing down Zapdos, as a lot of them seem to think that by stalling with Roost they can beat you. Recycle + Lum works against the Sub Roost versions.

 

[Great Sage]

Just because it isn't implemented on Shoddy doesn't mean you can't list it.

 

[Jumpman16]

<p>As far as moveslot 4 goes, Toxic is standard, allowing Porygon2 to tangle with walls a little easier. Coupled with Recover, you can get out of many tough situations with stalling alone. Magic Coat bounces status attacks back at the user, which can be fun, especially when Bronzong or Yanmega put themselves to sleep. Conversion2 is a neat gimmick; if your opponent sends in a Choice Band user to deal with Porygon2, like say, Metagross, you can take the Meteor Mash and change type, so you now resist the attack. This is a lot of fun and really annoys the opponent. You can also take advantage of Trace by gaining an immunity to one type of attack, and then using Conversion2 to resist your opponent's other attack. Thunder Wave can be used if you drop Discharge for Thunderbolt. Porygon2's low speed is his only downside, and paralyzing the opponent helps compensate for this weakness. Recycle can be interesting, used with a Sitrus Berry, Leppa Berry or Lum Berry. Sitrus is a free 25% health boost, turning many 2HKOs into 3HKOs. Leppa allows you to stall forever, because Porygon2 will never run out of PP. Lum Berry serves as a temporary status shield that can be replenished at any time.</p>

This is a very slight nitpick on what is a very-well written analysis, but I can't help but wonder whether Thunder Wave should be the main option. Considering this is a Defensive Duck geared towards switching into Heatran, Gyarados and most Salamence rather than one that's often supposed to be tangling with the walls that make Toxic and Conversion2 a better idea, I think I would rather definitely paralyze Heatran then fire away with Thunderbolts if it's going to stay in (locked into Earth Power and maybe P2 is in 2HKO range after the initial switch). Magic Coat is cool but I'm not sure is this P2 shoudl really be staying in on walls that much

also some calcs on what salamence can do to P2 after Intim with BB, DC and Outrage, with and without LO, would really help because I suspect P2 could be one of the best Salamence counters we have...i could run them myself but you know

 

[Bourbon]

Porygon2 is about as good as a Salamence counter as Starmie a Gyarados counter. It is never OHKOed by DDmence's attacks but it is left with very little health. However, its by no means useless. You can get it in on vaporeon, jolteon, or a slow wall and use Recover to get some health back.

-1 Life Orb Outrage: 40.38-47.7%
-1 Life Orb Brick Break: 33.88-40.11%
-1 Life Orb Dragon Claw: 27.1-31.98% (4HKO even with SR)

+1 -1 Life Orb Outrage: 60.98-71.82%
+1 -1 Life Orb Brick Break: 50.68-59.89%
+1 -1 Life Orb Dragon Claw: 40.38-47.7% (2% chance to 2HKO with SR)

-1 Outrage: 31.17-36.86% (this is like adamant scarfmence)
-1 Brick Break: 26.02-30.89% (4HKO)
-1 Dragon Claw: 20.86-24.66% (5HKO)
+1 -1 Outrage: 46.88-55.28%
+1 -1 Brick Break: 39.02-46.07%
+1 -1 Dragon Claw: 31.17-36.86%

Porygon2 takes hits from Salamence quite well. If there is no Stealth Rock down, Choice Band mence only has a 10% chance to 2HKO with Outrage.

A Life Orb Draco Meteor never OHKOs without Stealth Rock support, and with it, it has a 59% chance to OHKO :(

I am starting to agree about Thunderwave, or even adding Hidden Power Fire to the other options. If you get a Flash Fire boost you basically have a third decently powerful elemental attack at your disposal.

 

[Jenigmat]

I think HP Fire with Base Power of 60 should be mentioned as an option. It sounds crazy, but Porygon-2 can copy Technician, boosting the power of HP Fire to 90, and then OHKO Scizor. Scizor is the 2nd most common OU pokemon, and being able to counter him is very useful. HP Fire also hits Steels and Bugs harder than Discharge and Ice Beam, but Scizor is the main reason for 60 HP Fire.

I never thought I'd say this, but darknessmalice brought up a good point here. After seeing this I tried it out, and though Tracing Technician was pretty unreliable, in Scizor's case it actually worked out pretty well. I think around half of the Scizor's I faced carried Superpower, which was a problem, but if you scout out the Scizor's movepool then it works pretty well.

On the other hand, I used it over Toxic which I thought I'd rather have.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Scizor outspeeds Porygon2 and can OHKO with +2 Brick Break: 98.6 - 116.5%

Also, Porygon2 can only OHKO with HP Fire if it switches into Scizor and copies Technician:

Non-Technician HP Fire 60 vs 32HP Scizor: 77.5 - 92.7%
HP Fire 70 vs 32HP Scizor: 91.3 - 108.0%

Not to mention that many Scizor run a lot more HP EVs than that (232).

Porygon2 can counter a lot of things, but I don't think Scizor is one of them. Anyway, the last slot is so much more helpful with either Toxic/ Thunder Wave, instead of using a Hidden Power that can sketchily kill a single specific threat.

 

[Bourbon]

Toxic and Thunder Wave can catch way more Pokemon than Hidden Power Fire can. Porygon2 will effectively be running three moves 90% of the time, unless Scizor shows up, and even then, Hidden Power Fire doesn't even OHKO.

You know those annoying Subtrans, well I just realized today that you can own them with Conversion2. It forces them to use Hidden Power Ice on you, which is like a 5HKO. Conversion2 also helps with pretty much every 2 attack pokemon out there, its a fun move, and I abuse it :)

I am considering putting Shadow Ball in the set comments of the Special Defensive Duck because Porygon2 can beat those Rest Sleep Talk Rotom forms quite handily with it, and also ward off Gengar. Trick is really the only thing that could mess up Porygon2 from walling Rotom :/

 

[Itchni]

I know this is kinda thread necro, but the physical wall works very well in conjunction with a ghost+ scizor counter. If your going to use gengar and you have little problems with scizor i highly reccomend using porygon2.

great job skiddle

 

[Bourbon]

personally i had success with P2 + Spiritomb together, Pressure screws up all those fighting types (eating away Close Combat, Cross Chop and Dynamicpunch PP) while Porygon2 took care of the harder hitters that could 2HKO Spiritomb.

That was early D/P though, now stuff like Scizor ruins everything.

 

[Caelum]

I know this is kinda thread necro

The thread necro rule does not apply in C&C as long as you have something relevant to contribute. Just wanted people to know that.

Anyway,

No on Hidden Power Fire from the looks of it it's not even worth a mention in Set Comments (I'm not even sure if it's worth it in Other Options).

For Shadow Ball, I'd throw a mention in Set Comments on Skiddle. Porygon2 has always had the role of a niche utility counter to a lot of top threats (really it counters so many of the top threats all at once - it's incredibly underrated) so if it could beat Rotom-appliance, why not?

Also, I'm all for including calculations for Salamence vs Porygon-2. I personally feel Salamence is the most threatening Pokemon in DPPt play (Scizor has significantly more checks / counters in my opinion) so I think calculations would be appropriate for a Pokemon who is often over looked. Maybe throw in Gyara? Really, what else besides Porygon-2 can switch into all of these top threats and beat them: Heatran, Salamence (not SpecsMence but you are usually safe most of the time), Zapdos (if you use Toxic), Gyarados, and Rotom-app.

Oh, I also edited your post for some formatting issues Skiddle, I hope you don't mind. It's stuff you obviously know but just casually missed so I didn't want to bother you with it.

 

[Itchni]

The thread necro rule does not apply in C&C as long as you have something relevant to contribute. Just wanted people to know that.

Anyway,

No on Hidden Power Fire from the looks of it it's not even worth a mention in Set Comments (I'm not even sure if it's worth it in Other Options).

For Shadow Ball, I'd throw a mention in Set Comments on Skiddle. Porygon2 has always had the role of a niche utility counter to a lot of top threats (really it counters so many of the top threats all at once - it's incredibly underrated) so if it could beat Rotom-appliance, why not?

Also, I'm all for including calculations for Salamence vs Porygon-2. I personally feel Salamence is the most threatening Pokemon in DPPt play (Scizor has significantly more checks / counters in my opinion) so I think calculations would be appropriate for a Pokemon who is often over looked. Maybe throw in Gyara? Really, what else besides Porygon-2 can switch into all of these top threats and beat them: Heatran, Salamence (not SpecsMence but you are usually safe most of the time), Zapdos (if you use Toxic), Gyarados, and Rotom-app.

Oh, I also edited your post for some formatting issues Skiddle, I hope you don't mind. It's stuff you obviously know but just casually missed so I didn't want to bother you with it.

From experience, he usually beats any physical salamence but dies/allmost dies in the process. Technicly a counter.

 

[Bourbon]

Salamence:

-1 Life Orb Outrage: 40.38-47.7%
-1 Life Orb Brick Break: 33.88-40.11%
-1 Life Orb Dragon Claw: 27.1-31.98%

+1 -1 Life Orb Outrage: 60.98-71.82%
+1 -1 Life Orb Brick Break: 50.68-59.89%
+1 -1 Life Orb Dragon Claw: 40.38-47.7%

-1 Outrage: 31.17-36.86%
-1 Brick Break: 26.02-30.89%
-1 Dragon Claw: 20.86-24.66%
+1 -1 Outrage: 46.88-55.28%
+1 -1 Brick Break: 39.02-46.07%
+1 -1 Dragon Claw: 31.17-36.86%


Gyarados:

Bulky Gyarados:
-1 Waterfall: 17.89-21.14%
+1 -1 Waterfall: 26.56-31.44%

Offensive Gyarados:
-1 Life Orb Waterfall: 25.47-30.08%
+1 -1 Life Orb Waterfall: 38.21-45.26%
-1 Life Orb Aqua Tail: 29.00-34.15%
+1 -1 Life Orb Aqua Tail: 43.09-50.95%


I don't know how you'd like there formatted, or even WHERE you want them, so I'll just leave these here.

And yes Porygon2 if using the "Specially Defensive Duck" spread can switch in to those Rotom forms fairly easily, taking at most 52.85% from a Modest, Choice Specs Thunderbolt. Without Choice Specs it's never a 3HKO. With 0 SpA EVs, it's like a 5-6HKO. Shadow Ball is a guaranteed 3HKO on 252 HP Rotom, a 2HKO on 6 HP Rotom.

 

[Bourbon]

so how do I format these calcs

 

[Colloquy]

<h3>Damage Calculations:</h3>
<pre>
Salamence:

-1 Life Orb Outrage: 40.38-47.7%
-1 Life Orb Brick Break: 33.88-40.11%
-1 Life Orb Dragon Claw: 27.1-31.98%

+1 -1 Life Orb Outrage: 60.98-71.82%
+1 -1 Life Orb Brick Break: 50.68-59.89%
+1 -1 Life Orb Dragon Claw: 40.38-47.7%

-1 Outrage: 31.17-36.86%
-1 Brick Break: 26.02-30.89%
-1 Dragon Claw: 20.86-24.66%
+1 -1 Outrage: 46.88-55.28%
+1 -1 Brick Break: 39.02-46.07%
+1 -1 Dragon Claw: 31.17-36.86%

Gyarados:

Bulky Gyarados:
-1 Waterfall: 17.89-21.14%
+1 -1 Waterfall: 26.56-31.44%

Offensive Gyarados:
-1 Life Orb Waterfall: 25.47-30.08%
+1 -1 Life Orb Waterfall: 38.21-45.26%
-1 Life Orb Aqua Tail: 29.00-34.15%
+1 -1 Life Orb Aqua Tail: 43.09-50.95%
</pre>

 

[Caelum]

I wanted to put this on-site sometime soon but I just have a few questions for Skiddle first.

[SET]

name: Defensive Duck
move 1: Discharge
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic / Thunder Wave / Conversion2
item: Leftovers
ability: Trace
nature: Bold
evs: 232 HP / 236 Def / 40 SpA

I'm really skeptical of Conversion2. I just can't imagine that many scenarios where it would be a useful move.

[SET]

name: Charge Beam
move 1: Charge Beam
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Tri Attack / Defense Curl
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Trace
nature: Modest
evs: 232 HP / 140 Def / 136 SpA

Defense Curl seems like Other Options to me.

<p> Porygon2 generally wants to set it's HP stat to 369, which is achieved by using 232 HP EVs. Then, decide how you want to distribute the remaining 276 EVs

Why do I want my HP stat at 369?

Blissey's switch from Bold to Calm and the addition of Trick to Porygon2's movepool makes Blissey less of a problem, which is a big bonus for the cyber duck. </p>

Bold or Calm, Blissey doesn't give a shit about Porygon2 (excluding Trick which has nothing to do with Blissey's nature).

 

[Bourbon]

You want 369 HP to round down stealth rock and sandstorm damage, but it's not too important I guess...

EDIT: hmph... this didn't turn out the way I wrote it at all... couldn't have been that bad! And there is most of a sentence missing in the "counters" section:

"...Porygon2 will come out on to. Electivire can... "

 

[QibingZero]

Alright, I'm going to make the case for HP fire (70) as the first option replacing toxic/twave/conversion2 on the main set.

Regarding Heatran and Scizor:

If you switch p2 into Heatran using a fire move and receive a Flash Fire boost, HP fire does quite a bit more than you'd think. It easily dispatches Scizor. But, even if you don't get a boost, hitting Scizor with Discharge on the switch (what you're generally going to use on the switch anyhow) opens him up to sure death by an unboosted HP fire - especially if the Discharge manages to paralyze. No, you're not ever switching into Scizor if you can help it, but it's pretty damn important to not let him set up on you. (If you find this scenario a bit too niche, keep in mind that these are currently the two most common pokemon we're talking about)

Regarding Magnezone:

With HP fire, you can trap and revenge kill it (this is especially fun with scarf magnezones using HP fire themselves). Without, you can trap it, but you're not really doing a damn thing to it.

Regarding other steels:

Basically, you at least do something to them if needed. Forry eats a surprise KO if he thought about setting up. You do over 50% to Lucario if he tries to come in and set up while injured (this turns into 80-95% if you have a flash fire).


Really though, with the addition of HP fire p2 is able to be even more of a diverse member of your team. I've run nearly everything on p2 at some point (Ice Beam/Recover being the steady base) as I'm sure some people on shoddy can attest to. With steels becoming more and more important, the other options for that last moveslot are less and less worthwhile.

T-wave is really the only other option I consider. Sometimes you want the for-sure paralysis - it makes sense.

As was said earlier in the thread, p2 rarely wants to stay in on walls, so I find toxic fairly useless. Especially since a bunch of the stuff you'd want to use it on is carrying resttalk anyway these days.

Conversion2's uses are also few and far between, not to mention the fact it can screw you over at times. Oh, I just made myself steel type and now Magnezone is trapping and killing me with HP fire (I'll admit though, I've never actually had that happen!).

Tri-attack is something I used for a while back in the day for a strong attack with interesting effects (especially when tracing Serene Grace), but it doesn't really help you beat anything.

Shadow ball. Okay you're hitting Rotom, and if you want to risk it Gengar. Steels still laugh in your face.


I mean, with options like these, does HP fire really look so gimmicky?

 

[cim]

How is it pretty damn important to "not be set up fodder" for Scizor? Unlike Salamence he's easily walled by stuff. You could already stall nonSpecs Zone with Z.

Also, you kind of need Toxic so that he's not a useless overspecific counter utility like Cress can be.