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This is the worst possible way to think about a suspect test. Does happiny add anything to you? No. But it shouldn't be banned. Only broken mons should be banned for that reason, not because you can make a philosophical bullshit argument that somehow proves they might as well banned
Happiny isn't banned from OU. There's a difference between "should we unban a thing: does it add value?" vs "this Pokemon is useless, let's ban it".
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Happiny isn't banned from OU. There's a difference between "should we unban a thing: does it add value?" vs "this Pokemon is useless, let's ban it".
What is the difference between unbanning an uber and banning a regular Mon if where it starts is based on a completely different meta? Nothing. Greninja's status in a different meta is arbitrary - it needs to be broken to be banned, not add something to be healthy. Are you saying anything ridiculously not broken like Venomoth after baton pass clasu should still have a reason to be legal in UU? Not being broken is enough reason to unban since not being broken is enough reason to not ban.
Adding to this, dropping ubers might seem fun but if the uber in question isn't actively good for the meta all you've really done is made a metagame more pointlessly complicated.
It's not complicated to add one line to the code.
 
Adding to this, dropping ubers might seem fun but if the uber in question isn't actively good for the meta all you've really done is made a metagame more pointlessly complicated.
It was deemed broken in OU, nothing changes here. Sooo... What does it possibly add besides a huge offensive threat? Why not unban Mega Gengar then? It didn't get a boost, lets see how it goes
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
No he doesn't mean to code; it's actually less than a line even if you want to get into the semantics. He means complicated to explain. STABmons' old banlist + unbanlist for instance was a bit complicated to explain, and Monotype's type-based bans are as well.
What's more complicated to explain, the premise of the meta being doubling the effects of each ability that fits into the powered up category (and adapt goes from 2x to 3x despite the fact that it is originally only a 1.33x boost, so it should go to a 1.66 boost or 2.5x), or that Greninja isn't banned because it isn't broken? If someone is smart enough to understand the meta and the rules they are more than smart enough to understand the insane power creep that makes Greninja mediocre.
 
What's more complicated to explain, the premise of the meta being doubling the effects of each ability that fits into the powered up category (and adapt goes from 2x to 3x despite the fact that it is originally only a 1.33x boost, so it should go to a 1.66 boost or 2.5x), or that Greninja isn't banned because it isn't broken? If someone is smart enough to understand the meta and the rules they are more than smart enough to understand the insane power creep that makes Greninja mediocre.
People who come to this metagame from standard tiers won't understand.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
What's more complicated to explain, the premise of the meta being doubling the effects of each ability that fits into the powered up category (and adapt goes from 2x to 3x despite the fact that it is originally only a 1.33x boost, so it should go to a 1.66 boost or 2.5x), or that Greninja isn't banned because it isn't broken? If someone is smart enough to understand the meta and the rules they are more than smart enough to understand the insane power creep that makes Greninja mediocre.
You fail to understand banning philosophy, and this isn't the first time I've seen this from a good portion of this community so I really want to point it out because I'm sick of seeing people scramble to unban things for no reason. Just look at Stabmons 1.0.

It takes a certain vote to ban something. That thing has to be uncompetitive or broken, or whatever its factor may be. At the same time, there is no real reason to unban anything when it adds nothing positive to the metagame. This same argument applies to Aegislash being "not as broken" in ORAS OU and people trying to find excuses to let it back in the tier because the metagame is stale. The problem is - it doesn't matter. Adding Greninja to this meta only adds centralization around a very good but impossible to hard counter mon, and this is the primary reason we would not unban it. What does Greninja add to the metagame anyways? We don't know. Should we unban Gira-O or Genesect because we "don't know?" Never. And we never will.

Proof is back to the aegislash retesting. In its original suspect testing, it was BARELY banned, but in the ORAS one, where it was arguably less broken, many more people voted to keep it banned. Why? What would it add to the metagame? An overcentralizing threat would be good to the metagame for what? Aegislash and Greninja parallel here for the exact same reasons. I'm sorry, but there is no good reason to let it in the tier, so why should we bother letting it back into the tier when it doesn't add anything substantially positive?
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
You fail to understand banning philosophy, and this isn't the first time I've seen this from a good portion of this community so I really want to point it out because I'm sick of seeing people scramble to unban things for no reason. Just look at Stabmons 1.0.

It takes a certain vote to ban something. That thing has to be uncompetitive or broken, or whatever its factor may be. At the same time, there is no real reason to unban anything when it adds nothing positive to the metagame. This same argument applies to Aegislash being "not as broken" in ORAS OU and people trying to find excuses to let it back in the tier because the metagame is stale. The problem is - it doesn't matter. Adding Greninja to this meta only adds centralization around a very good but impossible to hard counter mon, and this is the primary reason we would not unban it. What does Greninja add to the metagame anyways? We don't know. Should we unban Gira-O or Genesect because we "don't know?" Never. And we never will.

Proof is back to the aegislash retesting. In its original suspect testing, it was BARELY banned, but in the ORAS one, where it was arguably less broken, many more people voted to keep it banned. Why? What would it add to the metagame? An overcentralizing threat would be good to the metagame for what? Aegislash and Greninja parallel here for the exact same reasons. I'm sorry, but there is no good reason to let it in the tier, so why should we bother letting it back into the tier when it doesn't add anything substantially positive?
Ok I'm sick and tired of this crap so let me end this for once and for all.
To your first point: Banning philosophy is and always has been subjective. If something's banworthiness has been predetermined by whoever wrote the smogon banning philosophy guide, then why do we have forums or councils? The one guy who wrote that article should make the decisions for us. Insofar as treating this article as the holy grail is paternaluzing, destroys our autonomy and removes the point of having doeuma, I reject your first argument. Banning philosophy is subjective.
I am not scrambling to unban things for no reason, I am asking for them to be unbanned because THEY ARE NOT BROKEN. Take the deoxyses in stabmons, a meta you yourself quoted. They were B in the viability ranks and nobody thought they were broken. So why should they be banned ? Plus there is a suspect test going on so how is anyone scrambling to unban things? I just gave my opinion on the suspect test and here you are strutting around like you somehow know this way better than anyone else. But hey I like avoiding personal attacks so lets move on. Also what was wrong with Stabmons 1.0? If at all it was the banlist, not th unban list. I heard multiple people asking in the thread "why is each banned Mon banned?" At no time did I hear someone say "why is deo unbanned if it doesn't add anything to the metagame?" So turn your argument as it actually supports my argument.
Another thing I have said that none of you have refuted is: What is the difference between a suspect test of a banned Mon and one of an unbanned one? All of your arguments talk about how there is no reason to unban Ninja, but that is indistinguishable from banning an unbanned Mon. So why can't I apply this to Happiny? Ghoul King's response literally makes no argument- what is the difference between something like that doesn't add value and something that is useless? Is anything you have to prepare for diminishing more value than it is adding? If so ban sheddy and basically everything. I hope you now see how ridiculous your argument is.
But oh boy that isn't it. Your next paragraph talks about similar stuff at first, about the idea that unbanning something has to add value. Once again, this holds true because of your arbitrary distinction that the requirements to be legal or not should be determined by an ancient document by some Smogonite and a ruling in another tier with different game mechanics. But then you finally talk about Greninja and not any banned mon. you justify banning it on adding no "value" to the tier. What does add value to the tier? Only mons with support moves? Only stall mons? This is such an arbitrary definition and should not be used to see if something is banworthy. The only thing that can't be disagreed with by any philosophical crap is cold, hard calcs.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 289-343 (84.7 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
It doesnt even KO an uninvested Mew w/o rocks with an SE move. Pinsir on the other hand does this with a neutral move:
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (The equivalent of a jolly return with the 1.6x boost)
Stronger with a non SE move. So Greninja isn't nearly as strong as other threats. What about the broken mon PZ? Is scarf PZ stronger than a SE Greninja hit? If so, Greninja is completely useless.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 294-348 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (Equivalent of scarf with changed adaptability)
So If Greninja is broken, you have to ban this stuff too which also have great speed/priority and is stronger even if not super effective. Anything that outspeeds it can probably kill it because it has boosted attacks. And things wall it. AV Regenerator Torn-T takes less than 66% from ice beam so it can just U-Turn out. So don't unban Greninja if you want, but then ban this more insane stuff like Adaptability mons, Mega Pinsir, Gardevoir, etc.
tl;dr Stabmons 1.0 was fun and balanced (besides Sableye on every team imo) and judging by calcs Gren isn't as scary as other stuff. You can't tell anyone that you are definitively right about knowing banning philosophy as it is subjective, so don't be a paternalistic asshole. Don't judge the banlist based on arbitrary decisions in other tiers or some random old document.
 
Ok I'm sick and tired of this crap so let me end this for once and for all.
To your first point: Banning philosophy is and always has been subjective. If something's banworthiness has been predetermined by whoever wrote the smogon banning philosophy guide, then why do we have forums or councils? The one guy who wrote that article should make the decisions for us. Insofar as treating this article as the holy grail is paternaluzing, destroys our autonomy and removes the point of having doeuma, I reject your first argument. Banning philosophy is subjective.
I am not scrambling to unban things for no reason, I am asking for them to be unbanned because THEY ARE NOT BROKEN. Take the deoxyses in stabmons, a meta you yourself quoted. They were B in the viability ranks and nobody thought they were broken. So why should they be banned ? Plus there is a suspect test going on so how is anyone scrambling to unban things? I just gave my opinion on the suspect test and here you are strutting around like you somehow know this way better than anyone else. But hey I like avoiding personal attacks so lets move on. Also what was wrong with Stabmons 1.0? If at all it was the banlist, not th unban list. I heard multiple people asking in the thread "why is each banned Mon banned?" At no time did I hear someone say "why is deo unbanned if it doesn't add anything to the metagame?" So turn your argument as it actually supports my argument.
Another thing I have said that none of you have refuted is: What is the difference between a suspect test of a banned Mon and one of an unbanned one? All of your arguments talk about how there is no reason to unban Ninja, but that is indistinguishable from banning an unbanned Mon. So why can't I apply this to Happiny? Ghoul King's response literally makes no argument- what is the difference between something like that doesn't add value and something that is useless? Is anything you have to prepare for diminishing more value than it is adding? If so ban sheddy and basically everything. I hope you now see how ridiculous your argument is.
But oh boy that isn't it. Your next paragraph talks about similar stuff at first, about the idea that unbanning something has to add value. Once again, this holds true because of your arbitrary distinction that the requirements to be legal or not should be determined by an ancient document by some Smogonite and a ruling in another tier with different game mechanics. But then you finally talk about Greninja and not any banned mon. you justify banning it on adding no "value" to the tier. What does add value to the tier? Only mons with support moves? Only stall mons? This is such an arbitrary definition and should not be used to see if something is banworthy. The only thing that can't be disagreed with by any philosophical crap is cold, hard calcs.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 289-343 (84.7 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
It doesnt even KO an uninvested Mew w/o rocks with an SE move. Pinsir on the other hand does this with a neutral move:
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (The equivalent of a jolly return with the 1.6x boost)
Stronger with a non SE move. So Greninja isn't nearly as strong as other threats. What about the broken mon PZ? Is scarf PZ stronger than a SE Greninja hit? If so, Greninja is completely useless.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 294-348 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (Equivalent of scarf with changed adaptability)
So If Greninja is broken, you have to ban this stuff too which also have great speed/priority and is stronger even if not super effective. Anything that outspeeds it can probably kill it because it has boosted attacks. And things wall it. AV Regenerator Torn-T takes less than 66% from ice beam so it can just U-Turn out. So don't unban Greninja if you want, but then ban this more insane stuff like Adaptability mons, Mega Pinsir, Gardevoir, etc.
tl;dr Stabmons 1.0 was fun and balanced (besides Sableye on every team imo) and judging by calcs Gren isn't as scary as other stuff. You can't tell anyone that you are definitively right about knowing banning philosophy as it is subjective, so don't be a paternalistic asshole. Don't judge the banlist based on arbitrary decisions in other tiers or some random old document.
This is literally like asking why the Judicial Branch exists if the USA has a constitution. Let me remind you that developed metagames have councils made up of members who have more knowledge about the tier than other players giving them authority to apply a ban to a pokemon. This tier has no such thing nor does it have any players at the moment, which begs the question of why we're trying to suspect something so early. Besides this the difference between the two is that there is no difference. As in Aron being absolute shit with an annoying gimmick. We don't ban it because it probably isn't broken and noone uses it making it a useless ban. Similarly we don't unban an uber unless it adds something to the meta. It takes up time, adds a novelty to a tier, and removes otherwise viable mons from the tier.
 
Part of the problem with an unban is that, unless the unban becomes very popular to use, even if it has use it will tend to be largely overlooked by players. Discovering the unique bans of a meta is easy: make a team, try to play, get told "your team violates X rule in Y way", go "huh" and adjust it. Discovering unbans requires either reading the thread/OP, or running into someone who already knows it's unbanned and finding it out from them -on the ladder, generally by virtue of using the thing.

If something gets unbanned and doesn't immediately have a prominent presence in the meta, it will tend to drop off the face of the planet, not because it's necessarily all that bad, but because nobody coming into the meta is going to construct a team that includes Giratina unless they have a specific reason to believe it's available. I've seen exactly this phenomenon in Inverse, which has dropped multiple Ubers whose typings are awful in the context of Inverse, and it's been months since I've seen anyone use them -not because Aegislash or Giratina or Dialga or Mega Mawile are unusably bad in Inverse, but because most people don't actually read the OP, let alone look for unbans.

Unbans would be a lot more productive if there was some quick and easy way to check, on Showdown, what a given meta has banned/unbanned. Something to the tune of /data-ing (Only presumably a different, meta-specific command) a meta producing information like

-What its premise is.

-What its base is. (OU, Ubers, whatever)

-What additional bans it has.

-What additional unbans it has.

In a quick summary. If it was that easy and convenient to check for unbans, I'd push a lot harder for unbans myself. But having seen in action how little payoff you get for unbans if they don't leap into prominence immediately, I'm just not a fan of them anymore.
 
Keep in mind Greninja's other ability would give it a whooping 125% more damage on Water-Type moves should it get low on health. A SubLiechi set could throw out crazy strong Water Shurikens. While arguably gimmicky, it is a way it could take advantage of the meta.
 
Wow, more and more hiatus from me, and man, have I poked the hornets nest. Lets start with what I'm seeing right now.

About the logic behind the Greninja suspect, think about it like this: "What does it add to an already offensive metagame? What does it add when everything can hit harder (normal HO) and faster (weather in general)? Sure, its hard to counter, but it is also outclassed with shit like say, Kabutops (Shell Smash+Swift Swim makes it hard to counter), Omastar (same as Kabutops), Gorebyss (...), Mega Swampert (insane offenses and Swift Swim alongside solid bulk), Mega Jaws (stronger and faster), and Crawdaunt (Adaptability is insane) in rain offense, and on normal offense it is outclassed as a hard hitting water type by Mega Jaws, Crawdaunt (priority outweighs power here), and Barbaracle (to some extent due to Tough Claws and Shell Smash). Granted, nothing enjoys switching in, but nothing enjoys switching in on anything offensive in this metagame. It is still a threat, just an outclassed threat (technically speaking, though nothing outright outclasses its niche). That said, since the overall majority is anti-Greninja, I'm going to keep it Banned. It's not that I agree with the reasoning, but the fact that nobody likes the idea of it being unbanned.


Now, with that shit done with, lets talk about shit in the metagame that may or may not stay.

Hoopa-U
I think I've made my irrational dislike of Hoopa-U self-evident, but just in case it wasn't, I seriously HATE Hoopa-U. There. Anyways, it gets nothing here, but nothing changes, except the environment. What do you guys think?

Charizard
It looks insane, no matter what form you're referring to. Even its normal form gets Solar Power, which means it can seriously hurt. Forget about a BD set. Then its already S-rank Zard-X comes along and tears shit apart, and Zard-Y, who can put up weather for ten turns, which means more Solarbeams will hit you. Thoughts?

Mega Altaria
Mega Altaria looks nasty, with that nasty Pixilate. It puts it in a worse league than Mega Pinsir, due to better bulk and Dragon Dance. Ouch.

Politoed
Drizzle. It brings Thunder, Hurricane and Surf. That means ouch. Politoed gets Drizzle. You understand?


Also, start thinking about mons that look broken so you can complain about them. ;)
 
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Unless we're trying to balance the metagame(as in stall, offense, and balance being almost equally viable) Hoopa should not be banned do to it's low speed compared to the rest of the metagame.
 
I hate Hoopa-Unbound myself, but I don't see it as being a noteworthy threat in Powered Up.

Mega Altaria only looks all that scary to me if the OP's listing of 2.6 multiplier is accurate. If it is? Yeah, OK, it's murder incarnate. Frankly, if that is the number for the -ates, Gardevoir and Aurorus are the only Pokemon with -ates that seem likely to be anything other than astoundingly broken. But if it's just 1.6, then that's really good, but not nearly as nightmarish.

Mega Charizard Y arguably suffers in its direct utility from the extended duration. As a Sun team supporter, it's a lot more viable, but usually it's a standalone piece, and since switching in while your weather is up doesn't reset the timer, Mega Charizard Y actually resents the increased likelihood of ending up switching in when time is running very low, even after a long stretch. It's not like Y tends to stay in for turn after turn anyway, and not just because its weather runs out. X on the other hand is basically borderline in Standard as-is, doubling the Tough Claws boost may well take it over.

I don't see banning Politoed, even if Rain is a lot more viable generally.
 
Unless we're trying to balance the metagame(as in stall, offense, and balance being almost equally viable) Hoopa should not be banned do to it's low speed compared to the rest of the metagame.
I hate Hoopa-Unbound myself, but I don't see it as being a noteworthy threat in Powered Up.

Mega Altaria only looks all that scary to me if the OP's listing of 2.6 multiplier is accurate. If it is? Yeah, OK, it's murder incarnate. Frankly, if that is the number for the -ates, Gardevoir and Aurorus are the only Pokemon with -ates that seem likely to be anything other than astoundingly broken. But if it's just 1.6, then that's really good, but not nearly as nightmarish.

Mega Charizard Y arguably suffers in its direct utility from the extended duration. As a Sun team supporter, it's a lot more viable, but usually it's a standalone piece, and since switching in while your weather is up doesn't reset the timer, Mega Charizard Y actually resents the increased likelihood of ending up switching in when time is running very low, even after a long stretch. It's not like Y tends to stay in for turn after turn anyway, and not just because its weather runs out. X on the other hand is basically borderline in Standard as-is, doubling the Tough Claws boost may well take it over.

I don't see banning Politoed, even if Rain is a lot more viable generally.
I guess I miss worded my statement. I just wanted to know what you guys think about shit. It did a good job, but not in the way I wanted it to do. I thought my quote at the end explained this:
Also, start thinking about mons that look broken so you can complain about them. ;)
Well, theorymon away!
 
Talon seems a boatload of fun, now ignoring Espeed too!
Well yeah, it is now an even more insane revenge killer. One problem: it hits like a wet paper bag. While speed is good in this metagame, Talonflame just lacks the firepower to kill a lot of shit. Meanwhile, Lando-T switches in with impunity, as does Furfrou, Heatran, Rotom-W, and most importantly, Tyranitar. Tyranitar's Sand Stream hurts Talonflame for longer now, so TFlame will have a hard time getting kills when Rocks are up, as it'll die before it can get many kills.

However, I do see how a lot of people think Pinsirite seems a bit broken, with Return getting STAB+ a 1.6 boost. After a Swords Dance boost, one cannot switch in at all. The problem is, however, that Mega Pinsir still hates Rocks (with Talonflame around, rocks are already pretty common...in theory), and it is reasonably vulnerable to revenge killing (the only one able to do it safely, however, is Talonflame). Therefore, I'll be considering suspect testing Pinsirite....But unless I see a strong amount of support for a Pinsirite ban, I'll wait until this metagame becomes playable again to suspect test it.

In the mean time, I'd like to think about this metagame...but an Ubers variant. I'm not saying it'll happen, but imagine what the Ubers Powered Up would play like. Granted, I'll make sure all the banned abilities will still be banned (or nerfed in some way, such as banned abilities not getting any buffs this metagame provides), but still, I want to see what you guys think.
 

MAMP

MAMP!
im curious as to why people are arguing about bans in this thread when as far as i can tell this meta isnt playable anywhere and barely any games of this meta have been played. nobody really has enough experience playing this tier to truly say that something is broken, and thus any suspect atm is theorymon - at least wait for this meta to be playable somewhere before discussing bans
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Why does a meta that allows Jirachi to immobilise its opponent 99.975% (1-[0.1 (90% flinch rate)*0.75 (25% paralysis rate)]=99.75) of the time exist?

In all seriousness though I don't get why you're trying to balance a meta like this when you could just base it on ubers or AG and let people go nuts. It's brutally fun until you see Jirachi so I don't see the harm really, and it'd be funny to watch Kangaskhan OHKO everything with Seismic Toss.
 
Can you do us all a favor... and put Talonflame on Suspect because +2 Brave Bird is too overpowered.
If anything is going to get suspected, it'll be the -ate mons, simply because the boost is scary. Talonflame will be good, although it'll probably get lumped in A-. However, as MAMP amply mentions, it'll be to early to ban things like that, because there are 0 replays. So far, the bans have only been things that would never add anything to the metagame (Serene Grace. Enough said. If anything else needs to be mentioned, Huge Power), while Talonflame kinda does add something to the metagame (apt revenge killing) and is very easy to check (Rocks, Sand stall, Sand Offense, Rain Offense, Heatran, Tyranitar, etc). In general, I'm saying no to your request.

Why does a meta that allows Jirachi to immobilise its opponent 99.975% (1-[0.1 (90% flinch rate)*0.75 (25% paralysis rate)]=99.75) of the time exist?

In all seriousness though I don't get why you're trying to balance a meta like this when you could just base it on ubers or AG and let people go nuts. It's brutally fun until you see Jirachi so I don't see the harm really, and it'd be funny to watch Kangaskhan OHKO everything with Seismic Toss.
That is why Serene Grace was banned...Did you even look at the OP? When I say the "hax" is real insane with Serene Grace, I mean it basically doesn't exist, so it got kicked out, and Jirachi with it.

So with Serene Grace long gone, have you not heard of the threat that is Mega Pinsir and MAlt? Just Saying.
if it is not ag clauses (evasion) sand veil shoudl be banned.
Yeah...maybe, but I'm not going to ban anything else without first having a few matches to playtest them. I won't discount your statement, as it might very well be in need of a ban, but we don't know until this is playable somewhere.

Edit: I am going to put your request into the Big questions section bo3rn87.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
If anything is going to get suspected, it'll be the -ate mons, simply because the boost is scary. Talonflame will be good, although it'll probably get lumped in A-. However, as MAMP amply mentions, it'll be to early to ban things like that, because there are 0 replays. So far, the bans have only been things that would never add anything to the metagame (Serene Grace. Enough said. If anything else needs to be mentioned, Huge Power), while Talonflame kinda does add something to the metagame (apt revenge killing) and is very easy to check (Rocks, Sand stall, Sand Offense, Rain Offense, Heatran, Tyranitar, etc). In general, I'm saying no to your request.


That is why Serene Grace was banned...Did you even look at the OP? When I say the "hax" is real insane with Serene Grace, I mean it basically doesn't exist, so it got kicked out, and Jirachi with it.

So with Serene Grace long gone, have you not heard of the threat that is Mega Pinsir and MAlt? Just Saying.

Yeah...maybe, but I'm not going to ban anything else without first having a few matches to playtest them. I won't discount your statement, as it might very well be in need of a ban, but we don't know until this is playable somewhere.

Edit: I am going to put your request into the Big questions section bo3rn87.
oh i skimmed it and must have missed it. My bad. Either way though you should make it less buried in the OP so that people like me don't miss it (maybe bold the headings next to them or something so they stand out?)

Also yeah stuff like MPinsir is precisely why I think a meta like this would be better suited to an ubers environment. Like, I get banning abilities like Serene Grace, but trying to make a blatantly broken metagame balanced through suspect tests/bans for abilities which don't guarantee a flinch is such is an absolutely insane undertaking to he point where I don't think banning for balance is the correct course of action.
 
oh i skimmed it and must have missed it. My bad. Either way though you should make it less buried in the OP so that people like me don't miss it (maybe bold the headings next to them or something so they stand out?)

Also yeah stuff like MPinsir is precisely why I think a meta like this would be better suited to an ubers environment. Like, I get banning abilities like Serene Grace, but trying to make a blatantly broken metagame balanced through suspect tests/bans for abilities which don't guarantee a flinch is such is an absolutely insane undertaking to he point where I don't think banning for balance is the correct course of action.
Okay, you want to see this with Mega Mawile, Blaziken, MegaMence, Mega Khangaskan, Mega Luke, GeoXern, SkyMin, Genesect, Kyogre, Groudon, Lugia, Ho-oh, and more? I can summarize the ubers version of this with only a few words: X used Struggle!

That said, ubers has so many Pressure mons it isn't funny. "Oh, of course we're balancing a metagame!" no, all that would be is making it that much more cancerous with less competitive gameplay. In summary, if you want this for Ubers, submit that OM suggestion yourself and watch it get shut down by The Immortal. It probably won't happen, but if you want it done, I'd say you could, but it won't succeed.

On your other comment on how you skimmed past the banlist by accident, I'll fix that up, and I'm sorry for any inconvenience caused.

About Mega Pinsir anyway...I don't know if it should be banned. I just realized how insanely bulky Mega Aggron will be, and in Sand, it gets an amazing partner in Cradily. Cradily gets Storm Drain, which allows it to counter play Rain, which will make Sand Stall fairly viable. The big question is, Can it beat Mega Pinsir? We'll see if this ever becomes playable.

Edit: I really hate editing the OP.
 

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