Hello everyone. There are a number of questions where we have to compare two attacks against each other and well, how do we know when one attack is really worth it over some other attack? Not only Fire Blast vs Flamethrower, but Choice band vs Life Orb (or in a more recent example, Choice Band vs Focus Sash Dugtrio) comes up often, along with choice band vs expert belt and so forth.
While it is impossible to say one is better than the other, we can at least gain more information about this by calculating every single pokemon you can OHKO, Two-Hit KO, Three-Hit KO, etc etc. and compare it with the other.
Wait, isn't that a bit... difficult? Or at least tedious? Actually, no it isn't, thanks to Attack / Defense tiers. At least, it is much easier with Attack/Defense tiers. Granted, chaos noted that there is a possible mass damage calculator to be on smogon, but for now the best option is to use Attack tiers. Personally speaking, I feel it would be important to "think" in Attack tiers which will allow you to quickly do these sorts of calculations on the fly, instead of relying on a calculator.
Lets start with the a practical question. You're running max Sp. Atk Infernape with 0 Atk EVs, and max Speed. You want to know the following information.
* Who can I OHKO and Two-Hit KO with Fire Blast that I can't with Flamethrower? *
With this questions in mind, lets begin the analysis.
Step 1. Find the Sp. Attack and Attack tiers of the pokemon.
There are two ways to do this. I have a handy dandy list of all the min/max spreads. Just hit "Control-F" and type in the pokemon, and you'll find their name on the list. However, it doesn't do custom EV spreads. That would require the exact formula of attack tiers.
I'll give the exact formula later. For now, you can see that 252 EVs in Sp. Atk for Infernape gives 60.09 Sp. Atk tiers, and 0 EVs in Attack gives 57.68 Atk tiers.
(In the list, the first 2 numbers are Atk and Sp. Atk with 0 EVs, and the last two numbers are Atk and Sp. Atk with 252 EVs. In that order)
If you want a custom attack tier, copy/paste this into your address bar... except replace the ATTACK_STAT with your attack stat.
For example, Infernape's Sp. Attack with 252 EVs is 307. Copy/paste this:
Where the "http://blahblahblah" thing is. As you see, it returns 60.086, which was rounded up to 60.09 on the table.
Step 2. Find the Attack tier of your attack
There is a much shorter list for attacks. I hope that I have the BP for every attack on the list, just look up the BP... 120 for Close Combat, 95 for Flamethrower, 120 for Fire Blast and you're good. For BPs of 120, the Attack tier is 50.23. For 95, the Attack tier is 47.48.
Step 3. Add them up!
Add up the numbers for every attack. Obviously, use the math Sp. Attacks with the Sp. Atk tier, and vise versa. IE: Close Combat (50.23) + Infernape's Atk tier (57.68). Also, if you have STAB, then you must add 4.25. This accounts for the STAB bonus.
For the 3 attacks we want to learn about, all three have STAB. (Infernape is fire/fighting). So...
Close Combat (50.23) + Atk Tier (57.68) + STAB (4.25) == 112.16
Fire Blast (50.23) + Sp. Atk Tier (60.09) + STAB (4.25)== 114.57
Flamethrower (47.48) + Sp. Atk (60.09) + STAB (4.25)== 111.82
EDIT: Lol, I can't believe I didn't realize this: Here is a quick way to do step 1, 2, and 3 at the same time.
Type this in to the address bar (where the http:// thing is)
Obviously, replace attack with 300 or whatever your attack is, and replace base_power with 70 (for night slash) or whatever.
Step 4. Select the magic number
The magic number represents the random amount of damage you will do. Because this is random, there are three values I have listed for you to use.
* Minimum amount of damage: 3.53
* Maximum amount of damage: 1.83
* Average amount of damage: 2.65
Average generally is the most useful, because you can easily generate Two-Hit KOs and Three-Hit KOs from the Average.
Now SUBTRACT the magic number you selected from step 3.
Close Combat (50.23) + Atk Tier (57.68) + STAB (4.25) == 112.16
Fire Blast (50.23) + Sp. Atk Tier (60.09) + STAB (4.25)== 114.57
Flamethrower (47.48) + Sp. Atk (60.09) + STAB (4.25)== 111.82
Now we have:
Close Combat == 109.51
Fire Blast == 111.94
Flamethrower == 109.17
These values here are the base values in an analysis. From this point, you can springboard ahead to answer really almost all of your questions. But first, the next step.
Step 5: Add Modifiers
This is the key to Attack Tiers. I suggest memorizing the common modifiers if you want to get the most out of Modifiers. Natures change your tier by exactly 1.00 tier. If you assume Life Orb, that is a +2.75 bonus, Choice Band/Specs is 4.25. Super Effective is a 7.27 bonus, while Not Very Effective is a 7.27 penelty to your Attack tier.
The above numbers cover most of the cases you'll ever use. But they don't cover all the cases. Expert Belt (1.91) is also handy, 3x Spikes or Super-Effective Stealth Rocks is a 3.01 bonus. 1x Spikes or typical Stealth Rocks is a 1.4 bonus... again, these aren't used as often and I don't have these numbers memorized. But I can see their use.
Long story short. If there is a single thing to memorize about Attack tiers, it is this step, the modifiers step.
We'll come back to this step later. For now, we'll assume no modifiers at all.
Step 6: Compare Number to Defense Tiers
So here are the attack tiers for the attacks of a 252 Sp. Atk 0 Atk Infernape again.
Close Combat == 109.51
Fire Blast == 111.94
Flamethrower == 109.17
Now if you go into Defense tiers, every pokemon that is lower than that number will be OHKOed by Infernape on the average.
But wait, what about 2-hit KOs? Simply add 7.27, and all pokemon who have a Defense Tier lower than 7.27 + Atk. Tier will be Two-Hit KOed on the average by Infernape. Similarly, these are the pokemon OHKOed from a super-effective attack.
Now, remember what I said about memorizing step #5? If you've memorized the Life Orb (2.75), then you can add it to the OHKO and the Two-Hit KO marks for both of these attacks.Now, Close Combat OHKOs 112.26, so on, and so forth. Add 4.25 and you'll easily generate the list that you'll OHKO with a Choice Band / Specs (depending on which attack you prefer).
But lets focus on the questions asked at the beginning of the analysis.
1. Who can I OHKO and Two-Hit KO with Fire Blast that I can't with Flamethrower?
With these, I'll assume the Life Orb. So, Flamethrower has an Attack Tier of 111.92 after life orb bonus. Fire Blast has an Attack Tier of 114.69 after Life Orb.
So lets look inbetween these numbers on the Sp. Def tier list. Starting with Electabuzz, all the way down to Fearow, all the pokemon inbetween these two in the Sp. Def tiers will be OHKOed by Fire Blast, but not by Flamethrower. Some notable pokemon includes Medicham, Gengar (both 113.21), and Raichu. Now is the chance to OHKO Gengar and Medicham worth the loss in accuracy? Well, at least you got the OHKO list.
For the Two-Hit KO list, again, just add 7.27 to the above numbers and redo the process. This gives 119.19 for flamethrower and 121.96 for Fire Blast. All the numbers inbetween these two marks are Two-hit KOed by Fire Blast, but not by flamethrower. I would suggest looking at the "worst case" when you get numbers this high, because this is in the range of guys like Ludicolo who actually run EVs. Talking about Ludicolo, 252/252 Ludicolo scores 121.68, making it potentially Two-Hit by Fire Blast, but not by Flamethrower.
Now if you want to see it again with Spikes Support, add 1.4 to both numbers and redo the process. It works for both the OHKO and the Two-Hit KO numbers. Also, you can add Charcoal / Flame Plate to the equation as well (1.91), as long as you remember to subtract out the Life Orb. If you're doing this against say, another Close Combat Infernape, you can always add 4.25 bonus for the Sp. Def and Def. drops that the opponent Infernape gets for doing HIS close Combat.
Simple table for...
OHKO: 0
Two-hit KO: Add 7.27
Three-hit KO: Add 11.52
Note: This is good enough to post for now IMO. In the future, I may add a "Close Combat vs Fire Blast" or "Close Combat vs Flamethrower" thing here, so that is why I did the above examples with Close Combat as well. In essense, this is a WIP.
FAQ
What about Leftovers?
I admit that leftovers are a slightly more complicated case, namely because if you don't deal 6.25% damage, it is literally an Infinite Hit KO. (kinda like wobbuffet vs wobbuffet in ADV games).
One workaround is to use "modified" KO. Note that after calculating your attack tier, any defense tier below that is a OHKO. And you add 7.27 for a two-hit KO. If you want to see a two-hit KO with leftovers, add 6.63 instead. If you want a three-hit KO, instead of adding 11.52, add 10.29
While it is impossible to say one is better than the other, we can at least gain more information about this by calculating every single pokemon you can OHKO, Two-Hit KO, Three-Hit KO, etc etc. and compare it with the other.
Wait, isn't that a bit... difficult? Or at least tedious? Actually, no it isn't, thanks to Attack / Defense tiers. At least, it is much easier with Attack/Defense tiers. Granted, chaos noted that there is a possible mass damage calculator to be on smogon, but for now the best option is to use Attack tiers. Personally speaking, I feel it would be important to "think" in Attack tiers which will allow you to quickly do these sorts of calculations on the fly, instead of relying on a calculator.
Lets start with the a practical question. You're running max Sp. Atk Infernape with 0 Atk EVs, and max Speed. You want to know the following information.
* Who can I OHKO and Two-Hit KO with Fire Blast that I can't with Flamethrower? *
With this questions in mind, lets begin the analysis.
Step 1. Find the Sp. Attack and Attack tiers of the pokemon.
There are two ways to do this. I have a handy dandy list of all the min/max spreads. Just hit "Control-F" and type in the pokemon, and you'll find their name on the list. However, it doesn't do custom EV spreads. That would require the exact formula of attack tiers.
I'll give the exact formula later. For now, you can see that 252 EVs in Sp. Atk for Infernape gives 60.09 Sp. Atk tiers, and 0 EVs in Attack gives 57.68 Atk tiers.
(In the list, the first 2 numbers are Atk and Sp. Atk with 0 EVs, and the last two numbers are Atk and Sp. Atk with 252 EVs. In that order)
If you want a custom attack tier, copy/paste this into your address bar... except replace the ATTACK_STAT with your attack stat.
Code:
javascript:alert(Math.log(ATTACK_STAT)/Math.log(1.1))
Code:
javascript:alert(Math.log(307)/Math.log(1.1))
Step 2. Find the Attack tier of your attack
There is a much shorter list for attacks. I hope that I have the BP for every attack on the list, just look up the BP... 120 for Close Combat, 95 for Flamethrower, 120 for Fire Blast and you're good. For BPs of 120, the Attack tier is 50.23. For 95, the Attack tier is 47.48.
Step 3. Add them up!
Add up the numbers for every attack. Obviously, use the math Sp. Attacks with the Sp. Atk tier, and vise versa. IE: Close Combat (50.23) + Infernape's Atk tier (57.68). Also, if you have STAB, then you must add 4.25. This accounts for the STAB bonus.
For the 3 attacks we want to learn about, all three have STAB. (Infernape is fire/fighting). So...
Close Combat (50.23) + Atk Tier (57.68) + STAB (4.25) == 112.16
Fire Blast (50.23) + Sp. Atk Tier (60.09) + STAB (4.25)== 114.57
Flamethrower (47.48) + Sp. Atk (60.09) + STAB (4.25)== 111.82
EDIT: Lol, I can't believe I didn't realize this: Here is a quick way to do step 1, 2, and 3 at the same time.
Type this in to the address bar (where the http:// thing is)
Code:
[/SIZE] javascript:alert(Math.log(Attack * Base_Power)/Math.log(1.1))
Obviously, replace attack with 300 or whatever your attack is, and replace base_power with 70 (for night slash) or whatever.
Step 4. Select the magic number
The magic number represents the random amount of damage you will do. Because this is random, there are three values I have listed for you to use.
* Minimum amount of damage: 3.53
* Maximum amount of damage: 1.83
* Average amount of damage: 2.65
Average generally is the most useful, because you can easily generate Two-Hit KOs and Three-Hit KOs from the Average.
Now SUBTRACT the magic number you selected from step 3.
Close Combat (50.23) + Atk Tier (57.68) + STAB (4.25) == 112.16
Fire Blast (50.23) + Sp. Atk Tier (60.09) + STAB (4.25)== 114.57
Flamethrower (47.48) + Sp. Atk (60.09) + STAB (4.25)== 111.82
Now we have:
Close Combat == 109.51
Fire Blast == 111.94
Flamethrower == 109.17
These values here are the base values in an analysis. From this point, you can springboard ahead to answer really almost all of your questions. But first, the next step.
Step 5: Add Modifiers
This is the key to Attack Tiers. I suggest memorizing the common modifiers if you want to get the most out of Modifiers. Natures change your tier by exactly 1.00 tier. If you assume Life Orb, that is a +2.75 bonus, Choice Band/Specs is 4.25. Super Effective is a 7.27 bonus, while Not Very Effective is a 7.27 penelty to your Attack tier.
The above numbers cover most of the cases you'll ever use. But they don't cover all the cases. Expert Belt (1.91) is also handy, 3x Spikes or Super-Effective Stealth Rocks is a 3.01 bonus. 1x Spikes or typical Stealth Rocks is a 1.4 bonus... again, these aren't used as often and I don't have these numbers memorized. But I can see their use.
Long story short. If there is a single thing to memorize about Attack tiers, it is this step, the modifiers step.
We'll come back to this step later. For now, we'll assume no modifiers at all.
Step 6: Compare Number to Defense Tiers
So here are the attack tiers for the attacks of a 252 Sp. Atk 0 Atk Infernape again.
Close Combat == 109.51
Fire Blast == 111.94
Flamethrower == 109.17
Now if you go into Defense tiers, every pokemon that is lower than that number will be OHKOed by Infernape on the average.
But wait, what about 2-hit KOs? Simply add 7.27, and all pokemon who have a Defense Tier lower than 7.27 + Atk. Tier will be Two-Hit KOed on the average by Infernape. Similarly, these are the pokemon OHKOed from a super-effective attack.
Now, remember what I said about memorizing step #5? If you've memorized the Life Orb (2.75), then you can add it to the OHKO and the Two-Hit KO marks for both of these attacks.Now, Close Combat OHKOs 112.26, so on, and so forth. Add 4.25 and you'll easily generate the list that you'll OHKO with a Choice Band / Specs (depending on which attack you prefer).
But lets focus on the questions asked at the beginning of the analysis.
1. Who can I OHKO and Two-Hit KO with Fire Blast that I can't with Flamethrower?
With these, I'll assume the Life Orb. So, Flamethrower has an Attack Tier of 111.92 after life orb bonus. Fire Blast has an Attack Tier of 114.69 after Life Orb.
So lets look inbetween these numbers on the Sp. Def tier list. Starting with Electabuzz, all the way down to Fearow, all the pokemon inbetween these two in the Sp. Def tiers will be OHKOed by Fire Blast, but not by Flamethrower. Some notable pokemon includes Medicham, Gengar (both 113.21), and Raichu. Now is the chance to OHKO Gengar and Medicham worth the loss in accuracy? Well, at least you got the OHKO list.
For the Two-Hit KO list, again, just add 7.27 to the above numbers and redo the process. This gives 119.19 for flamethrower and 121.96 for Fire Blast. All the numbers inbetween these two marks are Two-hit KOed by Fire Blast, but not by flamethrower. I would suggest looking at the "worst case" when you get numbers this high, because this is in the range of guys like Ludicolo who actually run EVs. Talking about Ludicolo, 252/252 Ludicolo scores 121.68, making it potentially Two-Hit by Fire Blast, but not by Flamethrower.
Now if you want to see it again with Spikes Support, add 1.4 to both numbers and redo the process. It works for both the OHKO and the Two-Hit KO numbers. Also, you can add Charcoal / Flame Plate to the equation as well (1.91), as long as you remember to subtract out the Life Orb. If you're doing this against say, another Close Combat Infernape, you can always add 4.25 bonus for the Sp. Def and Def. drops that the opponent Infernape gets for doing HIS close Combat.
Simple table for...
OHKO: 0
Two-hit KO: Add 7.27
Three-hit KO: Add 11.52
Note: This is good enough to post for now IMO. In the future, I may add a "Close Combat vs Fire Blast" or "Close Combat vs Flamethrower" thing here, so that is why I did the above examples with Close Combat as well. In essense, this is a WIP.
FAQ
What about Leftovers?
I admit that leftovers are a slightly more complicated case, namely because if you don't deal 6.25% damage, it is literally an Infinite Hit KO. (kinda like wobbuffet vs wobbuffet in ADV games).
One workaround is to use "modified" KO. Note that after calculating your attack tier, any defense tier below that is a OHKO. And you add 7.27 for a two-hit KO. If you want to see a two-hit KO with leftovers, add 6.63 instead. If you want a three-hit KO, instead of adding 11.52, add 10.29