Pre-battle team selection and the simulator/Wi-Fi gap

[jrrrrrrr]

Yes, it's absolutely a bad thing. You might want to note that Wi-fi is BY FAR the most active part of the site, and having Smogon adopt a stance that cannot be effectively replicated on the actual games is iffy.

Wifi is only that active because it's a board filled with 220 pages of trade threads. Last gen everyone referred to them as "wifidiots", now we want to follow them in lockstep? I know I was gone for a while, but this change in philosophy is very difficult for me to adjust to.

Sleep Clause is a "slight tweak" because the result (don't spam sleep moves) doesn't drastically change the way that the game is played. This is far from a "slight tweak", as it puts a definitive and major rift between the playstyle and metagame of simulators and Wi-Fi players.

Which is why I'm glad that we voted to discuss these things on a case-by-case basis. I agree that this is a borderline case, which is why I really want someone to respond to my competitive arguments in the above posts. I don't have anything against following in-game as much as possible, I just think that removing the option to hide teams gives bad players an unfair advantage that they would not have under our current precedent.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It also takes away the advantage that bad players have. I've lost countless times to dumb shit simply because one assumes "no good player would do that". It stops the big advantage of dumb shit like GyaraVire. It reduces the use of Pokemon that exist merely as gimmicks to do specific stuff, and that benefits only more skilled players.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

It also takes away the advantage that bad players have. I've lost countless times to dumb shit simply because one assumes "no good player would do that". It stops the big advantage of dumb shit like GyaraVire. It reduces the use of Pokemon that exist merely as gimmicks to do specific stuff, and that benefits only more skilled players.

The entire philosophy of Smogon for four generations has been to reward players for making teams that work. What you call "dumb shit", others call "tactical advantage". What is wrong with using an Electric absorbing ability to cover the weakness of an Electric-weak pokemon on your team? That sounds like good strategy to me. Are there better strategies? Sure. But I can't believe that you would honestly propose eliminating something like that because you think it's "dumb shit". That post was very uncharacteristic of you.

It sounds like you went into the match only expecting OU pokemon with sets from Smogon's analyses, the fact that you lost to that indicates your own lack of foresight...not a competitive disadvantage. You outlined for me exactly what I think is wrong with revealing teams: it makes every turn a 1-on-1 instead of having to take into account the rest of the opponent's potential options. You KNOW what they're trying to do before they do it. "oh they have Gyarados and Electivire, I better counter that Gyarados with my Grass-type instead of my Electric-type!" Your strategy is set in stone before the match even begins, any semblance of critical thinking involved in the match is gone.

Competition is about options, we as a community have strived to make the metagame more diverse. Revealing teams takes away those options because it renders combos like GyaraVire useless. It also makes the metagame stale overall, since any potential for new team building discoveries will be essentially eliminated. Revealing teams removes creativity from the game since you can no longer do those quirky things like you just described, which I do not believe is beneficial in any way.

 

[TAY]

This debate is getting really, really sidetracked. I'm sure that we all agree "in the spirit of the game of pokemon" or whatever that we should, at least in general, be following cartridge mechanics. The question then becomes:

Is showing teams beforehand detrimental enough to Pokemon that we should exclude it from our simulators?

It seems obvious to me that the answer is no. Even assuming gamefreak made a negative change to the game in this case, there is nothing to suggest that the game is even close to unplayable (e.g., something like playing without sleep clause); on the contrary, teams are view beforehand on PO and the games play out just fine. It is even more ridiculous to not implement this because, as cim said, this is actually a huge part of gameplay. We should not be forgoing a major feature just because it makes the game slightly better.

Let's remove the spdef boost from butterfly dance?

 

[Philip7086]

For the record, I don't actually believe removing this feature would be betraying the game's mechanics. It is very easy to just explain it as the simulator is an acting judge whom both players tell to choose their teams' order for them. By doing things that way, users can play even WiFi without seeing the other person's team.

I am actually very much on the fence about this feature. I think both sides have made some very good points, and that is initially why I decided to attempt to support both on ladder play (that is, at least until I realized how freaking many metagames that would produce). Regardless, a decision needs to be made for official tournament reasons. After reading everybody's opinions, here are my thoughts:

Pros of Previewing Teams:

• Black and White has brought the total number of usable Pokemon up considerably, making it even harder to prepare for everything. Allowing previewable teams helps remedy this, as you can make the correct double switches to soften the blow from Pokemon you're weak against -- and you will be weak against something in this metagame.
• Even though you can use a middleman to pick teams for you on WiFi, that is really not likely going to happen in regular games, and therefore previewing teams truly remains the closest to a real WiFi environment.
• In terms of posts in this thread, previewing teams seems to have received a lot more community support than not. I'm reluctant to force something on the community if it goes against what a significant majority of players want. I'm willing to put my foot down on ridiculous things, but this issue isn't too ridiculous.

Cons of Previewing Teams:

• Despite peoples' claims that previewing teams does not reduce the skill required to win matches, I am not sold. I think the ability to scout teams mid-match and use experience/reasoning to make your decisions despite the unknown has been one of the most differentiating factors in terms of skill between two players. I am very reluctant to throw this steep-learning-curve skill out the window.
• I believe that when both players know each others' team, the game actually boils down to mere guesswork with less real skill involved. Yes, you now know your opponent's counters to your Pokemon, and you can make moves accordingly, but he now knows that you have this information too. Now two people will just be making guesses about how far down the "countering chain" their opponent will think, and I feel like that is completely random. When previewing teams was not an option, throwing out a random move that beats one of your Pokemon's counters could sometimes put you in a bad position for blind predicting, and was therefore naturally discouraged. That brought some form of order to the game, and required people to actually play smart and test the waters before making big plays. This process allows people to get a feel for their opponent and make actual educated moves when predicting the switch-ins further down the line (after counters have been revealed). In other words, despite gaining more knowledge, I feel like previewing teams actually makes things more random if anything.
• "Gimmicks" or rather, creativity, should be promoted. Allowing previewing teams might still leave room open for unique movesets, it still lowers the overall creativity one can use to his advantage. I feel like this will turn the metagame stale rather quickly, as previewing teams discourages the use of unique Pokemon that users normally do not prepare for.
• I agree with jrrrrr that team building is a big determinant of skill in Pokemon (or at least, has been historically). I always found the people who commonly cited "bad team matchup" as their reason for losing to just be people who could not make a good team. Though it is true that Pokemon Black and White introduced a LOT more threats into the metagame, I do not think they made it harder to check all of them. Keep in mind that there are also more Pokemon who can act as a sort of catch-all check for a lot more threats. Do we really need to see our opponents' teams in order to be safe against the plethora of usable Pokemon? To me this just promotes lazy and thoughtless team building if anything.

So yeah, that's currently where my thoughts are on this issue. I have yet to really decide on one or another, and I might want to put up a poll to see if people really are heavily in favor of one over the other. I would still like to see more anti-previewing teams posts first though before even taking it to that. Otherwise there really is no point.

 

[Firestorm]

I think part of this debate comes down to what we think of as the default. In Black & White, the default should be "Preview Teams" as that's what the game sets multiplayer battles to by default. However, most people find that hard to accept because we've played 10+ years without this mechanic and our brains are wired to accept "no preview" as the default. Personally, I think we need to approach it like TAY says which is looking at whether or not it's detrimental enough to the game that we exclude it from our simulators and I agree with him that the answer is no.

We need to stop looking at how it compares to what we had before and start looking at the game as what it is: a new game.

 

[TAY]

For the record, I don't actually believe removing this feature would be betraying the game's mechanics. It is very easy to just explain it as the simulator is an acting judge whom both players tell to choose their teams' order for them. By doing things that way, users can play even WiFi without seeing the other person's team.

This is still kinda silly, bro. You are making this argument for what, to justify a major change in gameplay for, at best, a minuscule gain in the quality of play? It is obvious that BW Pokemon battles are "supposed" to be played with teams view beforehand...why would you take such a large deviation when you admit yourself that seeing teams beforehand isn't a big deal. Furthermore, the majority of Policy Review members (this isn't the general public, bro) have said from experience that seeing teams beforehand is better than not...and as far as I can tell no one thinks it is absolutely terrible.

I prepared responses to all those cons but deleted them because I think this is sufficient. We can talk on irc later maybe, bro?

 

[Ulevo]

I really want someone to respond to my competitive arguments in the above posts.

I am unsure if I will be able to satisfy you with the answers and opinions I have, but I may as well honor your request for a response.

I don't have anything against following in-game as much as possible, I just think that removing the option to hide teams gives bad players an unfair advantage that they would not have under our current precedent.

I'd argue it would give the more skilled player a bigger advantage because the lesser skilled player will not know how to appropriately assimilate the information given to them and use it to manage his resources. A more skilled player will also have a better idea on how to deduce what sets each Pokemon are running, given a specific combination of Pokemon. And finally, the fact that both teams are revealed decreases the likely hood that a threat will unexpectedly sweep the opposing player, which even the best of players couldn't avoid in Gen IV. Because of this, there is little room for drastic shifts in momentum due to unknown factors you simply couldn't have prepared for, and it solidifies the better players advantages.

I don't see how a choice between 1-of-6 pokemon brings more mind games into the mix when compared to a choice between 6-out-of-about-150 competitively viable pokemon. When you have team-reveal, the only mind game is "when will he bring out this pokemon?".

There is much more to consider than this. "Is his Pokemon choiced, or is it holding another item?" "What set of moves is he running?" "Does threat X have a priory move that will take me out, or am I able to out speed him?" "Will he sacrifice his current Pokemon to switch in threat X safely?" Et cetera.

Without team-reveal, you have other mind games like "what pokemon does he have?", "can he still counter me?", "should I sacrifice this mon not knowing what his last ??? is?", "I already KOd one Steel-type, does his team look like there's another or can I use Outrage now?" etc. It adds long-term thinking into the mix because you're forced to play the odds and consider everything they could possibly do, rather than everything their 6 pokemon can do.

Except in Gen V, you can't play the odds and consider everything. Deducing probable options just isn't practical anymore. Most of those questions posed in the middle of a match can't be answered reasonably without first being aware of your opponents team, and seem less like "mind games" and more like "chance" to me. In most of the instances you described, you literally have to guess what you have to do, rather than analytically estimate.

And why should the importance of "team match-ups" be decreased? You never really specify what this means or why it would be a good thing. To me, team matchups are a huge part of how the game is played, so much more strategy goes into building your team than actually playing the games. Do you want to cover everything or just power through people? Does this pokemon mesh well with that one? Can they work together somehow? Team building SHOULD be difficult in my opinion, it adds more to the game.

I do feel that previewable teams do not detract from the importance of team building, they just direct it in a different focus.

But likewise, with team-reveal that one person can still play recklessly and get a win because you know the opponent's counters. "Oh I only have to kill Skarmory and then I'm free to sweep with Doryuuzu. Good to know that I can sacrifice anything I want now as long as that one Pokemon dies".

That is the consequence of poor team building, not having access to information about the opposing player.

It eliminates any need for safety while playing because they can't surprise you with a counter mid-game.

How can they not? Item, moves, ability and EVs all play an important role in determining how well one Pokemon fairs against another. Just by statistic alone in late DPPt, one could assume you would be facing a Salamence on the opponents team, and yet half the battle was attempting to figure out what set it was running before it steamrolled you. There are many Pokemon who can accomplish this now.

It decreases the need for long-term thinking because you already have your objectives laid out in front of you before you start the battle, there is nothing that can come up in the middle of the match that can change what you need to do to pull off a win (barring the rare massive hax match).

What? Why not?

Unexpected items? Unexpected moves? Unexpected EV sets? All these factors can drastically alter the same Pokemon, ultimately making them a different Pokemon entirely in many cases. These factors can change the tide of the battle at any point, and in order to optimize your resources and formulate a new strategy, you'll have to take this all in to account. It will require you to change your thinking.

You seem to believe that once you know the Pokemon, you can roleplay the entire match out. Beyond the first few turns, you can't, because all the above factors mentioned simply won't allow it most of the time.

You have a blueprint to follow on how to beat your opponent and there is basically nothing your opponent can do besides hope that they're faster.

Or they can bluff a choice item and knock you out with a SE attack. Or buffer your attack with their EV investment, making your presummed 2HKO attempt in to a 3HKO, and knock your threat out in return. Or do the same thing with a resistance berry. Or hit you with an unexpected move on a particular move set.

You're simplifying the scenarios when there are plenty of possibilities in many given circumstances.

Team reveal makes strategies more linear, rather than a path that branches off with new possibilities at the end of every turn. It takes options out of matches rather than putting them back in.

Just because it gives players a general battle plan to work with doesn't mean it mitigates the opportunity for surprise, as I've explained already.

The only surprises in a game with team reveals are the movesets of the pokemon, and most of the time that is irrelevant because most pokemon are dealt with in the same way no matter what their moveset is. Swords Dance Scizor is not much different than Choice Band Scizor, and you can be damn sure it's not running a surprise Special Attacking set. I know that there are some exceptions to this rule, but they are far outnumbered by the pokemon that can only one style of competitive set.

All I can say is that I disagree with this entirely. Scizors movepool is shallow at best, and relies entirely on its other superior traits (typing, stats, ability) to be effective. I don't even know why you would choose a poor example when there are clearly many Pokemon with diverse options available.

 

[Tleilax]

The different type of skill you mention is just going to be who makes the better guesses when playing in a late game enviroment from the offset. What I'm arguing is that this does indeed make the games less competetive, because the player who knows his pokemon x is going to be a problem for the opponent will be able to make easier predictions with it, and will also play as best he can with it. Having played a number of wifi games I found having a threat may even force your opponent to lead with something nuts just to avoid his normal lead being set up on, which you can take advantage of too, but it's still guessing however you put it..

I agree with the things you said, but don't share the same view on them. I feel that seeing the opponent's team adds MORE skill, or at least different skill. It encourages use of a long term game plan and allowed for better prediction and more mind games. If the opponent KNOWS you have a Zoroark, they will be incredibly cautious about throwing around Psychic and Dark moves even against things they would destroy, just in case it's Zoroark and they lose their counter to the Mon it impersonates. If they see you have a Tyranitar, they will be incredibly hesitant to use their Gengar early because they know you might have Pursuit and are afraid of it, making them get creative to play around it. This game of cat and mouse, baiting and predicting, using the information given to shape your game plan, is far more interesting than the blind guesses and scouting of DPPt. It's like chess. You know what all the pieces can do, and you see them on the board clearly. It's up to the player and the player alone to make the most of the pieces.

In case people can't tell, I fully support showing the team preview on the simulated battles. I believe in staying as loyal to the cartridge as possible, and that our official method of play should reflect that. As much as people here may not care for the WiFi community here, it does exist and I don't believe we should alienate them and totally forgo the cartridge mechanics in place because people prefer the way it used to be. Times have changed, we need to change along with them. If need be, we can have a server with blind battling for old times sake, but our official servers should be as the game has given us.

 

[matty]

This debate is getting really, really sidetracked. I'm sure that we all agree "in the spirit of the game of pokemon" or whatever that we should, at least in general, be following cartridge mechanics. The question then becomes:

Is showing teams beforehand detrimental enough to Pokemon that we should exclude it from our simulators?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81822

According to the voting, this is incorrect. We change things on an arbitrary basis that makes things more "competitive" (whatever that means). And I guess this is why we have so many vote topics lately to figure out what we do want to change.

No real argument from my end. I personally like team view, but I don't really care if the system is changed or not.

 

[Aldaron]

I don't even get why "we" spend so much energy on "debates" sometimes.

I'm pretty sure everyone can accept the idea that, before debate, what is implemented in the simulators is the default option.

In this case, that would be previewable teams.

Should, after we actually play for a while with the default option, the default option be detrimental to "skillful battles" or whatever, then we should approach the "debate" of implementing something like Philip7086's solution, which would still be faithful to the cartridge.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

AWESOME POST

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I realize that it will probably be the default option to show teams, but "because it's popular!" is not a reason for that. I'm glad that we got this topic out of the way early, it will be a huge stepping stone for when I propose to remove it later on in the metagame. Luckily we can still play Dream World without team reveal!! It's the better tier anyways, wifi sucks.

I'd argue it would give the more skilled player a bigger advantage because the lesser skilled player will not know how to appropriately assimilate the information given to them and use it to manage his resources. A more skilled player will also have a better idea on how to deduce what sets each Pokemon are running, given a specific combination of Pokemon. And finally, the fact that both teams are revealed decreases the likely hood that a threat will unexpectedly sweep the opposing player, which even the best of players couldn't avoid in Gen IV. Because of this, there is little room for drastic shifts in momentum due to unknown factors you simply couldn't have prepared for, and it solidifies the better players advantages.

Those aren't skills though, it's pure memorization. Giving both players the same advantage gives more to the worse player, because they have more to gain from the added information. The advantage is miniscule to the better player, but the worse player gains a ton of information that will change how they play.

There is much more to consider than this. "Is his Pokemon choiced, or is it holding another item?" "What set of moves is he running?" "Does threat X have a priory move that will take me out, or am I able to out speed him?" "Will he sacrifice his current Pokemon to switch in threat X safely?" Et cetera.

But all of those things are included when teams are hidden. That's what I mean when I say that team reveal isn't adding anything to the game.

I do feel that previewable teams do not detract from the importance of team building, they just direct it in a different focus.

I agree with this, except I dislike the focus it brings. Now I just want to use the 6 most powerful pokemon instead of having to think about how my teammates work together.

How can they not? Item, moves, ability and EVs all play an important role in determining how well one Pokemon fairs against another. Just by statistic alone in late DPPt, one could assume you would be facing a Salamence on the opponents team, and yet half the battle was attempting to figure out what set it was running before it steamrolled you. There are many Pokemon who can accomplish this now.

They can't surprise you with a counter mid-game because their team has been revealed.

Unexpected items? Unexpected moves? Unexpected EV sets? All these factors can drastically alter the same Pokemon, ultimately making them a different Pokemon entirely in many cases. These factors can change the tide of the battle at any point, and in order to optimize your resources and formulate a new strategy, you'll have to take this all in to account. It will require you to change your thinking.

None of those things are nearly as important as unexpected Pokemon. Revealing teams gives you more information from the start.

Or they can bluff a choice item and knock you out with a SE attack. Or buffer your attack with their EV investment, making your presummed 2HKO attempt in to a 3HKO, and knock your threat out in return. Or do the same thing with a resistance berry. Or hit you with an unexpected move on a particular move set.

But all of those things can still be done without revealing teams, and they are arguably more effective when you don't see the pokemon coming in the first place.

You're simplifying the scenarios when there are plenty of possibilities in many given circumstances.

Because I hate tl;dr posts and I have a nasty tendency to make them.

Just because it gives players a general battle plan to work with doesn't mean it mitigates the opportunity for surprise, as I've explained already.

Maybe "eliminate" is too harsh a word. "Reduce to an almost pointless level" would have been more appropriate.

All I can say is that I disagree with this entirely. Scizors movepool is shallow at best, and relies entirely on its other superior traits (typing, stats, ability) to be effective. I don't even know why you would choose a poor example when there are clearly many Pokemon with diverse options available.

I used Scizor because it was by and large the most common Pokemon in late-DPP. There are countless other examples. Heatran, Erufunn, Blissey, any defensive pokemon, etc. The ones who can surprise you with a different moveset are the heavily outnumbered exceptions.

 

[animenagai]

I have yet to test the previewable metagame, but I do think I should say something about the points made in this thread, at least the ones about skills in gen 4.

1. The problem of a team matchup is blown out of proportion. I don't know how to put this softly but the fact of the matter is that people in general do not think enough about team matchups when they're making teams. You should be aware of the common strategies/combos used in the metagame as you should be aware of the pokes stopping your own strategy. That's what team building is about; you take the time to strategise around these things. I've never had played a game where I thought my team disadvantage was so huge that I couldn't have won. Whenever I do lose a game I know that I could've won it given some smarter play. This team matchup business is blown way out of proportion and I believe a patient and intelligent player could overcome such things.

2. 'Gimmicks' are good. At least, gimmicks with specific strategic uses are good. I'll give you an example, in gen 4 (mence era) I used shucca metagross with max hp and max attack. It gave me a DDmence/gyara counter but it also had good offensive synergy with my team. It meant that I can blow up on a pert/flygon so my CMjira/DDtar etc. could do some major damage, possibly winning the game. Gross didn't do badly in general game either so don't even think about pulling that card, I swept with that thing quite a few times. Surprises aren't always a bad thing. In fact, it should be a good thing. It just depends on if the player is adept enough in using it.

3. Long term thinking, luring a certain poke to set up a sweep was around in gen 4 regardless. End game mentality was so important as any accomplished battler could vouch for. I knew exactly what pokes were in the way of me winning as soon as I made my team and the only extra thing I had to do in a game was to force those pokes to show its face and get killed (though a lure, trap kill etc.).

Therefore, I don't quite understand how this long-term thinking is anything new. Good players had this mentality regardless and anyone who didn't know this weren't being fooled in any way. If any average battler asked for the help of a good player, I'm sure this information would be presented to them. Revealing teams encourage long term thinking, but only for average players since good players did it anyway. In fact, I think revealing teams takes away the induction skills required from a good player. Saving your flygon just in case your opponent has an ape, using outrage because 2 of your opponent's steels have already been KO'd, not using hydro pump on starmie because a miss could mean a potential heatran sweeping you... The list goes on. I really don't think revealing teams necessarily encourage higher levels of play, which seems to be the gist behind the long-term thinking argument.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here of course.

 

[capefeather]

I just thought that I'd help to bring this back, because I think that it's interesting. Once again my laptop troubles have set me back because, last time I was able to check, this thread was locked on page 1 and support for previewable teams / switchable leads was nearly unanimous. I've only skimmed through page 3 since.

I basically agree with TAY that invoking an invisible judge is not worth it if it doesn't substantially improve the game. It's not a fundamental change of mechanics, but the invisible judge is still something that IMO should be invoked in extremely obvious/practical/inconsequential cases (e.g. taking back your move before the opponent picks one). I mainly see the invisible judge as unnatural and, furthermore, it should be regulated with extreme prejudice because we could easily get smooth-talking devil's advocating like what obi posted in the crit thread to extend the invisible judge's powers. (I'll be honest; I'd push for a crit removal in a heartbeat if such an option were to be proposed seriously in a "we don't need to follow mechanics exactly" situation.)

Concerning this changed mechanic in particular, I do not see the potential for rock-paper-scissors style guessing as necessarily detrimental. Iterated Rock-Paper-Scissors is a legitimate competitive game with actual world tournaments, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a competitive following for iterated Prisoner's Dilemma or something similar as well. I can also mention fighting games, where you don't even have the usage of reading the opponent's body language because you have to be looking at the screen. One disappointment that I had with Generation 4 was that there wasn't enough time to develop a proper fully informed iterated RPS situation, because by then it was usually endgame. I'd imagine that that is an argument that people who preferred Generation 3 like to use as well for preferring the slower generation over Generation 4, and Generation 5 is not looking to be going any slower. I also personally like the reduced emphasis on having one dedicated lead.

I'm not saying that team preview is better; I'm saying that it's not substantially worse and that it's not worth invoking the invisible judge.