Gen 2 Pre-Damage/Status/Non-Max PP Implementation and Legality Discussion

#1


In RBY and GSC, link battles do not restore your Pokemon's HP, status or PP, for example allowing you to bring a Flail Dodrio into a GSC battle with 1 HP, or a paralyzed Chansey into RBY, or any other 'impaired' Pokemon. Which brings forth the question: what should be legal, and how should they be implemented on the teambuilder? With RoA's new ladder system potentially enabling RBY and GSC Anything Goes, pre-status/damage/non-max PP should be available regardless of legality as otherwise it wouldn't truly be 'anything goes'.

Regarding legality, certain things come to mind:
  • RBY Non-Max PP is busted as it makes partial trappers just about impossible to PP stall.
  • RBY Pre-Status is busted (pre-poison for days), though I believe it'll (somewhat) diversify Anything Goes: you'd still have Mewtwo spam, but each status comes with its own pros/cons. Poison makes you immune to status, but vulnerable to Dragonair and Rapidash (two partial trappers that aren't OHKO'd by unboosted Mewtwo and have Agility), Paralysis helps you PP stall but gives away the speed advantage, and No Status leaves you vulnerable to freezes/sleep but is the least vulnerable to partial trapping. Vaporeon also gains an amusing niche with Haze as an anti-status lead, as it can strip an opposing Mewtwo of its protective status to make it vulnerable to freeze/sleep.
  • RBY Pre-Damage is nothing more than a handicap.
  • GSC Non-Max PP is nothing more than a handicap.
  • GSC Pre-Status is way less busted than RBY, as most statuses aren't exactly wanted in GSC. However, it would weaken status moves, and at the start of a round all Pokemon could start asleep with 0 turn wakeup to completely prevent early game status without any drawbacks. Either GSC Pre-Status as a whole, or pre-sleep with 0 turns (possibly widen the range) remaining would need to be banned.
  • GSC Pre-Damage though is very interesting. Instant 1 HP + Flail/Reversal combos without requiring Endure or Substitute, and strong Flying-type users that can avoid being invalidated by Spikes. GSC Pre-Damage would add more options to GSC without breaking anything, as they have tremendous offense to make them scary but retain big drawbacks and viable counters to keep them balanced.
Regarding implementation, I can take care of the coding end myself (I already have gotten pre-damage working on a test server), but where would it be put on the teambuilder? A possible solution I have in mind is in the 'Details' section, and having a crossed out plus that displays when it's not at 100%.

Should any part of pre-damage/status/non-max PP be integrated into Smogon RBY/GSC metas? Myself, I believe pre-damage should be allowed as it appears to expand GSC without harming it as pre-status could, and non-max PP should be legal only in GSC if at all.
 
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Zarel

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#2
This has been brought up many times before; I'd pull up the links but I'm too sleepy.

The general conclusion is that zero pastgens actually want pre-damage/status to be legal, so we could support it in custom games but not in any pastgen tier.

As for non-max PP, that's a to-do list item for a while now. The team storage format does have space for it! We just haven't gotten around to coding the UI yet.
 
#3
This has been brought up many times before; I'd pull up the links but I'm too sleepy.

The general conclusion is that zero pastgens actually want pre-damage/status to be legal, so we could support it in custom games but not in any pastgen tier.

As for non-max PP, that's a to-do list item for a while now. The team storage format does have space for it! We just haven't gotten around to coding the UI yet.
The only reference I recall ever seeing on pre-damage is someone mentioning Jorgen wanting to use a 1 HP Reversal Heracross some time ago. I'd like to see their issues with it, or would like them to voice their issues with it here if they can
 
#4
idk, i'm just not particularly interested in it for gsc. hard to put into words but i guess it's the same as rby with tradebacks or non-max DVs kind of? yeah it adds more options, but it's just not part of how the metas developed over the years. i don't see any reason to go back and alter how game mechanics work if it doesn't affect whether or not the game can be played on cartridge.

1 hp and pre-status are just a cheesy strats, they don't add any actual depth. if anything they just make rby and gsc mechanics more arcane to new users, which is already kind of an issue.
 
#5
I don't want to play every game with the fear of a 1 HP Black Belt Reversal Heracross waiting in the back for my >268 Speed mons to die. Also not super interested in the opponent's tanky SleepTalker getting to skip the guessing game for free, even if it's initially disadvantageous it could certainly be a midgame advantage on something like Cune. But more than anything else, it seems wholly unimportant to revisit this game element when it's been absent from the metagame for 17 years. I see this the same way as I'd view a lack of Sleep Clause: true to cart mechanics, but unhealthy for competition.
 
#6
Thank you for your responses.

I disagree that 1 HP doesn't add depth because it does offer more offensive options to GSC, and seems more comparable to choice items in terms of power with drawbacks, but the argument that it'd further the barrier of entry to GSC is fair enough. Pre-status I agree is a big problem though.

Guess I'll just work on it for Gen 1/2 AG accuracy then.