1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Prelude of Light (OU Sun + UU Subs) [Peaked at 7th]

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Katakiri, May 11, 2011.

  1. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    957
    [​IMG]

    Alright so this is the Sun team I've been making for who knows how long at this point. After months of play-testing, laddering, and editing, I can finally say that I've made an OU legit and balanced Sun team. Usually getting a steady streak of wins on the ladder, usually staying in the Top 50 of the OU Ladder. I'm grasping the concept of how OU Sun needs to works more and more with each passing day, finding it easier and easier to counter other Weather without sacrificing utility and, more often than not, win the Weather War.
    The First Look [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    If you look at the team, you'll notice that, Sun favorites, Venusaur, Heatran, and Volcarona are nowhere to be found. That's because I either found them an inferior choice to a Pokemon already on my team or that they added to an existing weakness without giving enough back to the team. That's not to say that they're bad Pokemon at all, they just have trouble fitting onto this team for reasons I hope will become clear to you by the end of this.

    The team is unorthodox, but it works fantastically. It's an offensive team with a good bit of support, that relies on devastating high base power moves, whose members rely on each other to function at their best. It's very tailored to my specific play-style, so it might feel awkward to some of you, but there's not much I can do about it but explain and hope you understand.



    Team Building Process:
    [​IMG]
    1.) Emboar was my first choice for the team. I heard a lot of talk about him being a bad Pokemon and while I thought that too before I started using him, he can be a more threatening sweeper than Infernape and I'll get into why that is a little later in the RMT.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    2.) The next Pokemon I chose was Exeggutor. While he may appear as a inferior choice to Venusaur, Exeggutor's Grass/Psychic typing matches up with Emboar's Fire/Fighting nearly perfectly, making them a nice sweeping duo in Sun. While Celebi has the same typing, I felt the speed of Chlorophyll might be more necessary than the extra bulk Celebi has.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    3.) With Drought making it far too valuable to pass-up, Ninetales was the obvious next choice. The only thing to decided was the set though. After a long process of trial & error, I ended up going for an Overheat + Power Swap set to get key OHKOs on Pokemon like Gliscor and denting others without having to suffer through that -2 Sp.Attack that leaves Ninetales as setup bait for Lati@s, Reuniclus, & Volcarona.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    4.) I needed a sort of glue to hold things together. Not just any kind though. I needed a Pokemon that could save me from Latios, Chandelure, Heatran, and Volcarona and still have an offensive presence throughout the whole game. So Snorlax was my next choice. It might seem like an odd pick, but Choice Band Snorlax is flat-out amazing this Gen. I often refer to it as "Combat Blissey." It hits hard and shakes off Special Attacks like they came from a Pidgey and it can effectively COUNTER Latios and all the other Psychic/Ghosts that live in that 110 Speed tier. Snorlax is no joke. UU or not, he cleans up some of the most deadly Pokemon to Sun teams and for that, he's always good in my book.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    5.) Thundurus was added as an attempt to maintain a counter for all other Weather Leads while still out-speeding and KOing Garchomp, Dragonite, & Salamence with HP Ice. His Fighting resistance is the biggest reason I chose him over other Pokemon that can do the same thing.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    6.) Zoroark isn't exactly a Pokemon you'd expect on a Sun Team outside of the novelty of using both halves of the Kitsune in Ninetales & Zoroark. I added him more as just filler because I've used him in the past and he always delivers good results. Being able to KO Psychics & Ghosts without them knowing he's there, usually disguised as Emboar or Exeggutor, and KO Dragons and Steel-types that get in the way of the team is pretty valuable. But he's very replaceable and as long as it doesn't harm the team in the long run, I'm fine with replacing him with a better Pokemon.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    7.)Lilligant ended up replacing Thundurus after a few weeks. I learned that her Leaf Storm can in fact OHKO Tyranitar in Sand and 4/0/0 Garchomp, so having a Chlorophyll Pokemon that can do Thundurus' main job while Sleeping the opponent and even act as a last resort Full Restore made it pretty easy for me to bid farewell to Thundurus.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    8.) Garchomp, Garchomp, Garchomp. It there any team you won't fit perfectly on? After trying every set from Chlorophyll Sweeper to Harvest abuse, I eventually decided to get rid of Exeggutor as I really needed a Boosting Physical Attacker as the new Chansey & Slowbro combo was tearing my team apart due to how one-dimensional my Attackers are, making it easy to switch to the correct wall every time. Swords Dance Garchomp helped that a bit, still troublesome, but manageable now. A Sun Boosted Fire Fang is really what sealed the deal for him, making short work of Ferrothorn, Scizor, and even Skarmory. (Good thing no one runs Durant or Kobalion EVER because they're the only Steel-types that naturally outspeeds Garchomp.)
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][Peaked at 38th]
    9.) Bisharp was added to the team, replacing Zoroark. Zoroark was kind just dead weight with Snorlax and Lilligant around. Aside from maybe taking out Hydreigon, his usefulness just seemed limited. Bisharp seems like an odd fit for a Sun Team, even more-so than Zoroark. But he serves 2 roles my team desperately needed. A Steel-type and a strong priority move. Zoroark's Sucker Punch was okay, but it's not shaving off half of Garchomp's health like Bisharp's does.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    10.) It's finally time to replace Emboar. Can't say I won't miss him. Taking a step up in Speed and a step down in bulk & Attack power, Infernape has fit onto the team quite nicely. After going through a few sets, I eventually decided on one that works for me. MixApe with a bit of a twist that makes it a pretty devastating force in and even out of Sunlight.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][Peaked at 7th]
    11.) After trying a lot of other Pokemon suggested to me, (Thanks, everyone!) I finally found exactly what I needed in terms of a Bisharp replacement in Durant. Faster than my biggest counters at 109 Base Speed, a Steel-type, hard hitting with a 475 Attack stat right out of the gate without being limited by Choice Band, and even providing a crippling status is what makes Durant a damn fine choice for the team.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    12.) Jirachi seemed like the natural evolution of Durant. It can do everything Durant can, but just a tad slower. Luckily it comes with a massive increase in Sp. Def & coverage. But then the darkest day for the team hit...The banning of Garchomp brought some hard changes to the team. I needed a new way to break stall and a new pivot as well as making up for the bulk & coverage I lost from Garchomp. After trying many, many Pokemon, from Swampert to Mew, I finally settled on Rhyperior. Rhyperior is a different kind of monster than Garchomp was. It's weak to far more types than Garchomp is but Solid Rock and sheer Type coverage has made up for most of that.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [Final Version]
    13.) While Rotom-W is the only new Pokemon on, Infernape got a drastic revamp, now running a fully physical Scarf set. Rotom however, instead of trying to replace Garchomp like Rhyperior was, is it's own Pokemon not trying to be anything like Garchomp and for the best really. But while not a change to the actual team, a HUGE mechanic change happened to PO since the last update. Healing Wish now heals before entry hazard damage. What this means it that my opponent can have Stealth Rock, 3 Layers of Spikes, & 2 Layers of Toxic Spikes up but if my Pokemon has so much as 1 HP left, I can bring them back to full health. Having 2 Pokemon with Healing Wish on the team only means that I can abuse the hell out of it. No longer does Ninetales have to stay in & die if Stealth Rock is up & she has less than 25% of her HP. That is a huge, huge boon to Sun & Hail teams. But enough fangasming over that.

    Through the Lens of Truth[​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    White Wolfos (Ninetales) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 40 SDef / 216 Spd

    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Overheat
    - Will-O-Wisp

    - Safeguard
    - Power Swap


    As much as I've always liked Ninetales and I've always liked Sunny Day teams, I along with everyone else, was disappointed that she was the one that got Drought instead of something like Heatran or even Arcanine. But making the best of it, I've made this set which has been the best set I've used for Ninetales so far. STAB Overheat becomes great in Sunlight, even with Ninetales' disappointing Special Attack stat not doing it any favors. Will-O-Wisp leaves me a little open to Heatran, but even with a Flash Fire boost, Heatran & Chandelure are not breaking Snorlax. It lets me Burn Tyranitar and helps with Politoed as they switch-in to take the Overheat. It's useful in general. Especially combined with Safeguard. Power Swap is a must with Overheat. Swapping my -2 from Overheat for a +0 while crippling my opponent is always welcomed. And stealing a Calm Mind or Quiver Dance boost from something that feels 'safe' setting up on Ninetales and giving them a -2 in Special Attack, is always fun.

    Safeguard is team support mostly. If you wanna piss off all those bulky Waters & Chansey that switch into Ninetales constantly, use Safeguard. It's really overlooked. A guaranteed 5 turns of being immune to status with Sun up is just amazing and a half to most teams. By the time the Safeguard is over, after switching-out, I have 3 turns to get in and sweep status free. Rotom-W & Jellicent can't burn my Snorlax and has their Hydro Pump & Scald weakened by the Sun, Chansey can only Seismic Toss me, Thundurus can't Thunder Wave me, my entire team becomes immune to Toxic Spikes, the whole Safeguard package is just ideal in this metagame. By now, everyone knows that status is EVERYWHERE this Gen. So you can imagine how awesome it is to not have to worry about it even just for a few turns.

    [​IMG]
    Biggoron (Snorlax) (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Return
    - Pursuit
    - Fire Punch (May Burn opponent)
    - Earthquake


    It is coward killing time when this Snorlax makes his appearance. With my team weak to the omnipresent Latios, Snorlax can switch into Choice Specs boosted Draco Meteor and take only an average of 60% from it, or can just let a teammate take the hit, and OHKO it with Pursuit as the coward switches out. The same story goes for Gengar, Starmie, Azelf, and really any Psychic or Ghost type in that 110 Speed tier. It's usefulness doesn't stop there either. It's Blissey-like ability to sponge Special Attacks makes it an exceptionally good check for all Pokemon that threatens Sun teams. Hitting insanely hard with Return, OHKOing just about any Special Sweeper while taking a pittance from their strongest attacks.

    Earthquake catches Heatran and Tyranitar who feel safe switching into a Choice Banded Return. Thick Fat helps it walls Heatran, Volcarona, & Chandelure even in Sunlight and KO them all with the appropriate attack. Even a Sun-boosted +1 Volcarona Fiery Dance will only take 31.4% - 37.2% of Snorlax's HP with Life Orb calc'd in, while Snorlax's Return will OHKO non-max Defense variants while doing 68.2% - 80.2% to Max Defense moths. The only issue is that Snorlax becomes set-up fodder for Fighting-types. Sometimes I have decide between Pursuing that Latios for a OHKO or Earthquaking that Terrakion that's switching in.

    [​IMG]
    Twinrova (Jirachi) @ Shuca Berry
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head (May Flinch opponent)
    - Fire Punch (May Burn opponent)
    - Ice Punch (May Freeze opponent)
    - Healing Wish


    Twinrova is an absolute boss. (Pun VERY intended) This is just my slight variation of Choice Scarf Jirachi. I chose Shuca Berry over Choice Scarf as the Scarf was only killing my otherwise good coverage. Shuca lets it survive the nastiest unboosted Earthquakes in the game. Adamant Excadrill & Sand Power Landorus even fail to OHKO her. The idea came from a Shuca Berry Heatran set I used to run in 4th Gen. It allowed Heatran to only take 80% for a Garchomp Earthquake which is why I consider Shuca Berry a better item than Balloon as it only activates when you need it and isn't simply knocked off by a stray attack. It also lets Jirachi bluff a Choice Scarf which can turn entire games around if it draws in Pokemon x4 weak to Fire or Ice that thinks they can set-up on an Iron Head-locked Jirachi. And even when I reveal my bluff & switch moves, they have no idea what item I have until it activates giving me a second bluff to abuse as logic would lead them to believe it's an Expert Belt Jirachi.

    Then I have my trump card; Healing Wish. I sacrifice Thunder Punch, my only means of hitting Water-types, for basically a Full Restore. It is the absolute king of healing moves. Unlike Wish, it's 1 turn healing and the incoming Pokemon doesn't have to take any damage or status from the opponent as it's brought in at the end of the turn. It doesn't even take entry hazard damage until after it's healed! You can imagine how hellish it could be to have the Paralyzed, busted-up Lilligant back to new or that Ninetales you've been at war with coming back to full health with no status, ready to finish off your Politoed. Twinrova. A fitting name for such a devious little witch.

    Durant (open)
    [​IMG]
    Armogohma (Durant) (F) @ Wide Lens
    Trait: Hustle
    EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head (May Flinch opponent)
    - Crunch (May lower opponent's Def)
    - X-Scissor
    - Thunder Wave

    An ant holding a magnifying glass on a Sun team. Couldn't have done that on purpose if I tried. Joking aside, Durant is no joke. Base 109 Speed making it the naturally fastest Steel-type in the game and THE most Speed-trolled Pokemon in the game. Hustle is, as always, a double-edged sword, giving Durant a x1.5 boost to her Attack at the cost of having an average Accuracy of 80% on all her attacks. Wide Lens does remedy this by giving her moves 88% Accuracy instead while keeping the x1.5 Attack boost making the Wide Lens very justified as she already has basically a Choice Band boost. The EVs give her 347 Speed out-speeding the 108 Speed tier by one point since Durant is the only Pokemon in 109 Speed tier and doesn't need to tie with herself thanks to Thunder Wave.

    Iron Head alone has almost made up for Hustle's Accuracy lose as it's Flinch rate is more than twice as large as Durant's miss window. X-Scissor is her obligatory second STAB. Crunch hits everything that resists her STAB attacks except Steel-types for at least neutral damage. Thunder Wave is Durant's last resort and her only offense against Steel-types. Luckily Durant isn't exactly expected to run Thunder Wave as most run Claw Sharpen so it catches everyone off-guard.

    Durant's only real flaw is her pitiful Sp.Defense and her inability to hit Steel-types without having to resort to Dig, which can be said of half the new Steel-types introduced this Gen. (Looking at you Escavalier & Klingklang) She can, however, act as a pseudo-Haxrachi against the likes of Scizor & other Steel-types and can actually 3 or 4HKO them with Iron Head after she Thunder Waves them.

    Her biggest job is helping Garchomp, Lilligant, & Infernape deal with Terrakion & Sawsbuck which are two of the biggest threats to the team. Durant out-speeds Terrakion & can dismantle it with Iron Head or Thunder Wave and she can take a hit from Sawsbuck and X-Scissor for the KO or Thunder Wave if I smell a Focus Sash. She actually does help out against Lucario since it can dismantle the team as well so having something that resists ExtremeSpeed that can Thunder Wave it is perfect if Garchomp is too weak to take a +2 ExtremeSpeed.


    Bisharp (open)
    [​IMG]
    Darknut (Bisharp) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Defiant
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Sucker Punch
    - Brick Break (Breaks opponent's Reflect & Light Screen)
    - Psycho Cut (High Critical Hit rate)


    Bisharp is an attempt to solve many of my team's issues, without really giving up all that Zoroark added. A STUPIDLY powerful Sucker Punch is this thing's reason to exist. Just to give you an idea of exactly how strong this thing's Sucker Punch is, after a Swords Dance, Sucker Punch OHKOs Garchomp and does monstrous damage to Gliscor and pals. If you don't resist Sucker Punch, you'd better be packing a Substitute or you're just scraps for his pack of Pawniard. Even at without a boost, being able to shave off half the HP of any given sweeper with just priority is a pretty nice perk for a Steel-type to have as you should all know by now from Scizor.

    Brick Break & Psycho Cut are for coverage. Hitting Steel, Dark, & Fighting-types which resist Sucker Punch. Unfortunately hitting Fighting Pokemon isn't exactly his strong point due to being OHKO'd by both Mach Punch & Vacuum Wave. But if I have no other safe options to switch to when facing a priority Fighting-type, I'll stay in and Psycho Cut regardless of if I think they're going to attack. If the Fighting-type gets bold and predicts my switch and chooses to Bulk Up or something, Psycho Cut will do a hefty about of damage and I can KO them with Sucker Punch even with +1 in Defense. (Conkeldurr usually survives with around less than 20% of his HP, an easy amount to shave off with Sucker Punch.) Aside from being my only Outrage protection, that's about all there is to him. He hits hard. Period.


    [​IMG]
    Koume (Infernape) (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - ThunderPunch (May Paralyze opponent)
    - U-turn
    - Close Combat
    - Flare Blitz (May Burn opponent)


    ‎With Jirachi & Rotom-W around to handle Gliscor, I found Mixed Infernape to be pretty unneccessary so I scrap that set & switched to a more linear but effective set. Scarf Infernape isn't exactly the most common set and lacks the power of a Life Orb set, but turns a lot of matches on it's head by blasting through Pokemon like Gengar, Starmie, & Scarf Landorus. Pokemon Infernape loses to otherwise.The set's fairly standard otherwise; STAB coverage, U-turn, & a Wild Card. Infernape does a lot more than it's previous set though. It now works with Lilligant creating a very, very effective revenge team. Out-speeding almost all other Scarfers & +1 Stat boosters which was one of my biggest problems before. If the Sun wasn't up, Lilligant couldn't take anything out and I had to throw Ninetales in front of the train just to get Sun back up. That's not so much of an issue with Rotom-W around but Lilligant still loves not having all the pressure for Speed put on her.

    Infernape teams up very well with Rotom-W too. Between U-turn & Volt Switch, Ninetales almost never has to come in blind which is very good as Ninetales isn't exactly a Pokemon that can afford to take more damage than it has to. There's honestly not a lot to say about this set. It's a scout & a revenge killer and not much more than that. It works fantastically though, it's just not as pretty on paper as the old Infernape was.

    Infernape (Old) (open)
    [​IMG]
    Koume (Infernape) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Close Combat
    - Overheat
    - Flare Blitz (May Burn opponent)
    - Stealth Rock / Will-O-Wisp


    Infernape is my problem solver. She's a little harder to switch-in than Emboar was due to the sheer lack of bulk, but she does the same job with more speed. The set is designed to maximize the damage she can cause in one round, but it comes at the cost of coverage; however optimizing her ability to abuse the Sun more than covers the cost. Close Combat is the main attack Infernape uses just due to the kind of Pokemon he's switching into. By using both Overheat and Flare Blitz, she can hit hard on both sides, making safe switch-ins pretty scarce. Just about anything that switches into Close Combat is not going to be able to take a Flare Blitz or Overheat except for Jellicent, Gyarados, & Tentacruel. Unless it's a faster Pokemon that resist Fighting, it's hard to force Infernape out. Even Pokemon like Sigilyph & Gliscor have a hard time switching in. Close Combat does 29.9% - 35.5% to Gliscors and an unboosted Overheat does 85% - 100.7% to it and is a clean OHKO in Sunlight.

    The main key is to not let the opponent know you're running mixed Fire. Use Flare Blitz or Overheat, but don't use the other until you need it to KO something. Mixed Infernape is fairly common, but running both Flare Blitz and Overheat at the same time is very rare and very unexpected. Psychic & Flying Pokemon like Reuniclus, Sigilyph, & Thundurus are instantly drawn in by a -2 Mixed Inferape, assuming they can use her to setup after Overheat KOs one of their teammates. That's when you can nail them with Flare Blitz and net that sweet KO. Stealth Rock is useful for passive damage and Will-O-Wisp is really just to make Dragonite & Gyarados cry. I prefer Will-O-Wisp personally, but they're equally good options.


    Emboar (open)
    [​IMG]
    Jalhalla (Emboar) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Flare Blitz (May Burn)
    - Superpower
    - Wild Charge
    - Flame Charge (Raises Speed 1 stage)


    Emboar is definitely a mixed-bag. He's naturally slow, so he constantly fears Earthquake unlike his older brother, Infernape, but his natural bulk makes him far easier to switch-in than Infernape and, after just one Flame Charge, he out-paces even Starmie, hitting a very nice 376 Speed severely reducing the amount of Pokemon that counter him. And with Emboar's typing, it's very very easy to switch-in and get a Flame Charge in on the switch or even if they stay in. Now while, granted, Infernape has that extra Move Slot for Swords Dance or Nasty Plot where Emboar has to run Flame Charge. Flame Charge is by no means dead weight. A 50 Base Power move with no downside and boosted by Sunlight make for a very useful tool to pick-off weakened Pokemon without losing more HP than you have to, or OHKO defensively weak Pokemon like Zoroark and Gengar and get rewarded for it.

    And into the meat of it's moveset, hard hitting 120 Base Power STAB moves are the only way this pig flies. Wild Charge of course is there for coverage, hitting everything legal in OU for at least neutral damage, bar the Lati twins who still take a hefty amount of damage from a Sun-boosted Flare Blitz. Flare Blitz is made far safer than Infernape's due to Emboar's naturally high HP making the recoil far less devastating and the Sun boost makes it a far too powerful move, eliminating any need for an Attack boost that so many other sweepers crave. The one thing that it's Fighting-type brethren will forever taunt him with is his lack of Close Combat, leaving Emboar with only Superpower and Hammer Arm, which drop Attack & Speed respectively which are VERY crucial stats to Emboar.

    Emboar can sweep a weakened team, but just not to that ludicrous extent that Blaziken did. Because this team was made just to test out Emboar in a Post-Blaziken metagame, I can safely and surely say that Emboar is not getting anywhere near the credit it deserves at this point. Maybe that will change once he gets Reckless from Dream World and becomes Darmanitan with better typing & bulk, but Emboar joining it's big brother in the ranks as an OU Fire/Fighting-type is not at all farfetch'd.


    [​IMG]
    Beth (Rotom-W) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Sunny Day
    - Thunder Wave
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch


    This is a little gem I've been keeping under wraps for a while now. I use to consider Lilligant to be Ninetales' partner in crime, but this little gal has taken it to the next level. Immunity to Ground, resistance to Water, & neutrality to Rock all help a lot, but Sunny Day & Volt Switch are what really puts Beth on every one of my opponent's "I want to beat in your face with a brick" list. Having a secondary Weather-starter means that Ninetales doesn't have to keep switching in to clear the skies. With Rotom's typing with Levitate making it almost the polar opposite defensively, it becomes incredibly hard to stop the duo from keeping Sun up. While Politoed & Tyranitar love to switch-in on Ninetales, neither of them want anything to do with Rotom-W. Trying to whittle it's HP down with Surfs & Crunches will only get them Thunder Waved or worse. Switch-ins like Latios usually end up getting Thunder Waved on the switch & promptly dealt with by Snorlax.

    While Hydro Pump might seem a bit selfdestructive on a Drought team, Rotom's funtion is to deal with Ninetales' problems. Chances are Sun won't be up when Rotom's called in meaning it can nail all those Pokemon that love to Earthquake Ninetales with a Hydro Pump or Thunder Wave then simply call out the Sun &Volt Switch out. Volt Switch is the real bread & butter of this set. Letting me see exactly what they're going to use against Rotom and letting me switch to a safe counter every time. Ferrothorn's never too happy about switching into Rotom only to have Ninetales switch in before it can so much as set up Stealth Rock.

    Most people seem to forget that Weather doesn't have to be set-up by an ability & when it's brought by something as hard to take down as Rotom-W, that's when the problems start for them. Other teams' "sure-fire" Sun counters like Heatran & Volcarona can't deal with Rotom as he can just Hydro Pump or Thunder Wave them, which at the very least makes them dead weight to their team. Rotom-W on a Sun team. You'll laugh at first, but not for long.

    Rhyperior (open)
    [​IMG]
    Dangoro (Rhyperior) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Solid Rock
    EVs: 132 HP / 160 Atk / 152 Def / 60 SDef / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Ice Punch (May Freeze opponent)
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch (May Burn opponent)


    Garchomp was a hard, hard Pokemon to give up to the gods of Smogon. I quickly realized that there is no replacement for Garchomp, so I had to change my focus a bit and I'm still not entirely sure what to do, but for right now I'm happy with Sandstorm's worst nightmare; Rhyperior. Tyranitar becomes 100% set-up bait as any good player would not even consider staying in on Rhyperior as long as Ninetales is still around. His Ice Punch floors Gliscor, His Fire Punch roasts Ferrothorn, his Earthquakes rock the foundation of the metagame, HIS DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT WILL PIERCE THE HEAVENS!...I got carried away there, but he does shake up Sand teams pretty badly. His EVs seem random but they actually let him survive very key moves. The HP EVs give him those cushiony 101 HP Substitutes. The Special Defense lets him set-up on even Expert Belt Mixed Tyranitar guaranteed as his Ice Beam does 40% maximum to Rhyperior. Jolly Excadrill fails to even 2HKO Rhyperior with STAB Earthquake. That's right. Balloon Excadrill has no chance of fully revenging this beast. They need to upgrade to Adamant Life Orb to deal with him 1v1.

    I gave up Rock STAB as Ice & Fire together hit Flying, Bug, & Ice Super Effectively, covering everything Rock STAB hits & more. Rotom-W is the Pokemon that completely stops this set. Rhyperior can't do anything to it and wow is it annoying. Lilligant & Ninetales can handle Leftovers versions, while Snorlax can handle Choice versions. But Rotom-W forces Rhyperior out no matter what. Unfortunately Rhyperior, unlike Garchomp, doesn't help against Rain teams very much. If it can get behind a Sub & break down Pokemon with Earthquake so the others can better deal with then, that's fantastic! But getting Rhyperior in on Rain is a challenge in of itself.


    Garchomp (Banned) (open)
    [​IMG]
    Gohma (Garchomp) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Dual Chop (Strikes Twice)
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Fang (May Burn, May Flinch)


    Garchomp is kind of lame this Gen. She's still Garchomp, oh god is she still Garchomp, but she's just so hard to switch-in and KO something with this Gen. With everything and their Grandma's dog running Will-o-Wisp, Scald, Latios, switching to a Leviatator, and/or just running Hidden Power Ice on everything, Garchomp feels legitimately harder to switch in than even Ninetales. She doesn't have that utility that Snorlax, Infernape, & Lilligant has. The opponent just has to hit her once then bring in their speed Pokemon to finish her off.

    She does pick things off very well and lures in Latios & Starmie for Snorlax to OHKO. The only walls she really fears are Cofagrigus, Dusclops, and Porygon2 due to Fire Fang being Sun boosted, giving her basically 3 different types she gets STAB from, letting her ruin the likes of Skarmory and Balloon-holding Steel-types. Dual Chop is used over Dragon Claw because it has the same power and a little less accuracy, but it busts through Substitutes meaning the team has nothing to worry about when Snorlax draws Breloom & Sub+Disable Gengar in as she can break their subs and deal nice damage to them and even prevent Breloom from Focus Punching. I can't really afford to use Outrage because things are actually faster than Garchomp this Gen and I NEED her to stay around for most of the match if not just as a pivot.


    [​IMG]
    Kalle Demos (Lilligant) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 64 SDef / 192 Spd

    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Healing Wish
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Rock]


    Roserade's little sister. I don't even know where to start about this Pokemon. This team could not even function without Lilligant. There's just no replacing her because no other Pokemon can do what she can do for the team. I'll just start with the basics. Lilligant is usually my lead and for good reason. She can OHKO all other opposing Weather leads (except Abomasnow) and Sleep Powder their common switch-ins. After a Sleep Powder, that's usually Ninetales' cue to switch-in. With the popularity of Tyranitar and the amount of players that seem to forget that Tyranitar does get OHKO'd by a Lilligant/Roserade/Exeggutor/Tangrowth Leaf Storm, I almost just get free wins from Sand teams, especially since Lilligant is never known to run Leaf Storm anyway. When I take out their Weather Starter on turn 1, that's it. Excadrill becomes too slow, Starmie gets entirely shafted by Snorlax, Vaporeon becomes laughable, and the list goes on.

    "Okay, so what? Tyranitar can just switch out to-" To what? Heatran? Latios? Volcarona in Sand? Snorlax OHKOs them all and just shrugs off their attacks due to his Special Defensive bulk. The great thing about using Leaf Storm is that Lilligant not only OHKOs Tyranitar, but she OHKOs all of the common faster Sandstorm Pokemon. Gliscor, Garchomp, Excadrill, Landorus? All OHKOd by Leaf Storm. Pokemon like Ferrothorn & Scizor that resist Grass STAB, will have to deal with Sleep Powder the next turn so they're not even a truly safe switch-in without a Lum Berry. Espeon is OHKO'd or at the most 2HKO'd by Leaf Storm and ruined by Snorlax. Xatu loses a great chunk of his HP from Leaf Storm, easily bringing him into HP Rock's KO range even at -2 in Sp.Atk.

    Now you might ask "No Quiver Dance?! What is this?!" Well, it's the fact Leaf Storm makes Quiver Dance nearly pointless and Healing Wish is far too good to pass up. Having a Full Restore on the team at the cost of just one moveslot is invaluable. With Sleep Powder, a 140 Base Power attack from 350 Sp.Atk, and a Full Restore coming from 556 speed in Sunlight, Lilligant can completely change the tide of battle against nearly any foe.

    Synergistic Bonds [​IMG]
    (A.K.A. how Lilligant carries this team)

    Boss Rush - Gohma & Kalle Demos (open)
    Boss Rush - Gohma & Kalle Demos
    While they share a common weaknesses, Lilligant can give Garchomp what he always wanted. Dragon Dance A second chance at a sweep. Sleep Powder can give Garchomp a free Swords Dance, sure. But Healing Wish is THE reason they work so well together. Garchomp gets battered, bruised, & burned throughout the course of the battle. If Lilligant ends up facing something she can't sweep and it's too late in the game to give the opponent so much as a another inch, she can sleep the opponent then give herself up as a Full Restore for Garchomp which is the scariest thing in the world for a stall team to have to watch or most teams really.


    Minuet of Forest - White Wolfos & Kalle Demos
    Due to Ninetales being the fastest Weather inducer, her presence in Team Preview will almost always draw out the opponent's weather starter as the match starts, meaning Lilligant can counter the weather starter on turn one of the battle, and if they use Tyranitar or Politoed and choose to attack or just absorb the sleep from a Pokemon that normally can't even OHKO them, they are gravely mistaken as this Lilligant runs Leaf Storm. If they do switch-out, normally they switch to a bulky Pokemon like Ferrothorn that can take the hit from Leaf Storm, then I'll simply Sleep Powder then switch to Ninetales completely unscathed.
    If I do lead with Ninetales, Lilligant can put a stop to most counters, OHKOing Garchomp & Bulky Water-types, and can put boosting sweepers to sleep and even KO it's own counters like Salamence by running HP Rock instead of HP Fire.

    Death Mountain Dance - Kalle Demos & Biggoron
    These two alone can tear through a Sand Team like it was nothing. Everything that likes to switch in on Lilligant has big issues against Snorlax. Heatran, Latios, Latias, Volcarona, Gengar and most other things that can shake off a Leaf Storm and not fear Sleep Powder don't fair very well at all against Snorlax. But with no way to recover HP, Snorlax can't exactly take too many hits and is utterly crippled by Burn. Lilligant can remedy that by using Healing Wish to fully restore Snorlax's HP & Status as the opponent can only watch in horror as the monster that was a light breeze away from fainting is now stronger than ever.

    Requiem Of Spirit - Koume & Kalle Demos
    With these two around, no mistake goes unpunished. Setting up on Snorlax or Ninetales is almost never any option as these two will usually wipe you out with a little help from a teammate. (Usually Jirachi) If you KO a Pokemon, expect to be KO'd right back.

    Bolero Of Fire - White Wolfos & Beth
    Together, keeping the Sun going is no chore at all. With Weather changing every couple of turns, Rotom's Sunny Day's 5 turns are always more than enough to hold the team over until Ninetales sets up Sun for good when the opposing Weather starter is down & out.

    Underused Corner (open)
    Underused Corner [​IMG]
    Vulpix is banned from UU now, but it would be a shame to let this part of the RMT go to waste by just deleting it.

    This team fares fine in UU cause it's weathered for such a more brutal metagame than most Sun teams you'll see in UU and it only has to give up Ninetales, Infernape, & Garchomp which are VERY easy to replace.

    Ninetales replacement:
    [​IMG]
    Keaton (Vulpix) (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 56 HP / 200 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Hypnosis
    - Confuse Ray
    - Grudge


    With Ninetales, Politoed, Tyranitar, & Hippowdon now OU, Vulpix, Abomasnow, and...Hippopotas...head UU as the Auto-Weather Pokemon. This Vulpix is a set I came up with VERY early in 5th Gen to see if having 2 Drought Pokemon would help a Sun team, (It doesn't.) but it still works fine today. It's just an annoyer set, but it really keeps it from being dead weight to the team. This Vulpix passes up the Evolite boost that most people would think to use with it's half-decent (with Evolite) Sp.Defense and goes for raw speed. Burning, Sleeping, Confusing, and PP Draining key foes. I find myself using Confuse Ray more than Hypnosis just for how bad Hypnosis' 60 Accuracy is. It's a very straightforward set; get Sun up, cause a status, switch-out, Grudge when you don't need her any more.

    Infernape replacement:
    [​IMG]
    Jalhalla (Emboar) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Flare Blitz (May Burn)
    - Superpower
    - Wild Charge
    - Flame Charge (Raises Speed 1 stage)


    Emboar works exactly like he does in OU. Flame Charge to out-speed nearly all major threats except Choice Scarf Flygon and just hit things and watch them die. Flare Blitz is monstrous in Sunlight and has great coverage with Superpower considering most things that resist both are OU. Wild Charge hits those few that do resist both his STABs or if you're not ready to give up your Attack & Defense to hit a Bulky Water-type.

    Garchomp replacement:
    [​IMG]
    Aeralfos (Flygon) (M) @ Haban Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Hone Claws
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch (May Burn opponent)


    UU, a.k.a. 4th Gen OU Part 2: The Mystery of the Disappearing Steel-types, is Flygon's place to shine over the other Dragons. Other Dragons being Kyurem, Druddigon, Kingdra, and "How are you a Dragon?" But even with those 4 hanging around, Flygon is still the fastest of the group and now that EVERYTHING isn't running Hidden Power Ice for a change and Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Gliscor are stuck in OU, Flygon doesn't exactly have a lot of good counters around. And yes, I have noticed every other Flygon running Choice Scarf in true 4th Gen fashion, so I intend to take advantage of that as much as I can be feigning a Choice Scarf with a Haban Berry and only use Hone Claws when I need to.

    Abusing Flygon's new toy, Hone Claws, has been fun so far. It's truely become Garchomp's little brother, having just enough of Speed and Attack, after a boost, to sweep late game. With Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Bronzong, Metagross, Scizor, and even Forretress in OU, there's not a lot that can stop Flygon this early in UU. Escavalier, Cobalion, Bisharp, Klingklang, Durant, Steelix, and Registeel being the few notable Steel-types that remain in UU, Flygon really has no trouble except random Ice attacks, Scarfed Dragons, and Kobalion as Escavlier, Durant, and Klingklang all get walled & taken down by Emboar. Bisharp's Sucker Punch hurts but isn't quite enough to KO Flygon without a Swords Dance. Choice Scarf is definitely an option, but having 3 Choiced Pokemon on the team is not a good idea.


    Threat List [​IMG]

    I've crafted this team with all the top threats in mind, so if you look at the June PO OU Stats, everything in OU is covered in some fashion. Although when threats combine on a team, things can get a little hectic but the team can deal with every OU threat from Sand to Rain to Hail to Trick Room* (*Mostly), which is saying a whole lot for a Drought-based team.

    June Usage Stats:
    + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- +
    | Rank | Pokemon | Usage | Percent | Team's Counters/Checks
    + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- +
    | 1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169 | Infernape, Jirachi, Lilligant
    | 2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978 | Ninetales, Infernape, Snorlax, Jirachi
    | 4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722 | Ninetales, Infernape, Jirachi
    | 5 | Gliscor | 87936 | 16.0260 | Rotom-W, Ninetales, Lilligant
    | 6 | Latios | 81312 | 14.8188 | Snorlax
    | 7 | Rotom-W | 74332 | 13.5467 | Snorlax, Lilligant
    | 8 | Excadrill | 72129 | 13.1452 | Ninetales, Jirachi, Rotom-W, Infernape, Lilligant
    | 9 | Reuniclus | 68412 | 12.4678 | Snorlax, Jirachi
    | 10 | Heatran | 68095 | 12.4101 | Snorlax, Rotom-W, Infernape
    | 11 | Jirachi | 65026 | 11.8507 | Ninetales, Infernape
    | 12 | Dragonite | 64329 | 11.7237 | Jirachi
    | 13 | Conkeldurr | 61359 | 11.1825 | Ninetales, Lilligant
    | 14 | Politoed | 59370 | 10.8200 | Snorlax, Rotom-W, Lilligant
    | 15 | Gengar | 58717 | 10.7010 | Snorlax, Infernape
    | 16 | Skarmory | 54634 | 9.9568 | Ninetales, Rotom-W, Infernape
    | 17 | Thundurus | 54391 | 9.9126 | Ninetales, Infernape
    | 18 | Jellicent | 49694 | 9.0565 | Rotom-W, Lilligant
    | 19 | Starmie | 46790 | 8.5273 | Snorlax, Rotom-W, Infernape, Lilligant
    | 20 | Volcarona | 42924 | 7.8227 | Snorlax
    | 21 | Infernape | 41804 | 7.6186 | Rotom-W, Infernape
    | 22 | Gyarados | 40430 | 7.3682 | Rotom-W, Infernape
    | 23 | Blissey | 40129 | 7.3134 | Snorlax, Jirachi, Infernape
    | 24 | Forretress | 37361 | 6.8089 | Ninetales, Snorlax, Jirachi, Infernape
    | 25 | Ninetales | 34024 | 6.2007 | Snorlax, Infernape
    | 26 | Hydreigon | 34009 | 6.1980 | Snorlax, Infernape
    | 27 | Haxorus | 33256 | 6.0608 | Jirachi, Infernape
    | 28 | Salamence | 32868 | 5.9901 | Jirachi
    | 29 | Magnezone | 32777 | 5.9735 | Ninetales, Snorlax, Jirachi, Infernape
    | 30 | Terrakion | 32672 | 5.9544 | Rotom-W, Infernape, Jirachi, Lilligant
    | 31 | Vaporeon | 29003 | 5.2857 | Snorlax, Lilligant
    | 32 | Metagross | 28745 | 5.2387 | Ninetales, Infernape
    | 33 | Breloom | 28481 | 5.1906 | Ninetales, Jirachi, Infernape
    | 34 | Chandelure | 27876 | 5.0803 | Snorlax
    | 35 | Swampert | 27815 | 5.0692 | Lilligant
    | 36 | Cloyster | 26698 | 4.8656 | Rotom-W, Infernape, Lilligant
    | 37 | Scrafty | 26494 | 4.8284 | Infernape, Lilligant
    | 38 | Hippowdon | 26166 | 4.7687 | Rotom-W, Lilligant
    | 39 | Tentacruel | 25863 | 4.7134 | Snorlax
    | 40 | Lucario | 25625 | 4.6701 | Ninetales, Infernape, Jirachi
    | 41 | Machamp | 23961 | 4.3668 | Ninetales, Lilligant
    | 42 | Deoxys-S | 23920 | 4.3593 | Infernape, Lilligant
    | 43 | Toxicroak | 22830 | 4.1607 | Ninetales, Infernape
    | 44 | Virizion | 22229 | 4.0512 | Infernape
    | 45 | Espeon | 22019 | 4.0129 | Snorlax
    | 46 | Bronzong | 21683 | 3.9516 | Ninetales, Infernape
    | 47 | Porygon2 | 21163 | 3.8569 | Snorlax, Infernape
    | 48 | Mienshao | 21101 | 3.8456 | Infernape, Lilligant
    | 49 | Venusaur | 21001 | 3.8274 | Snorlax, Infernape
    | 50 | Landorus | 20408 | 3.7193 | Rotom-W, Infernape, Lilligant
    | 51 | Latias | 19992 | 3.6435 | Snorlax
    | 52 | Whimsicott | 19976 | 3.6406 | Ninetales, Infernape, Lilligant
    | 53 | Darmanitan | 19229 | 3.5044 | Infernape, Lilligant
    | 54 | Zapdos | 18115 | 3.3014 | Ninetales, Snorlax
    | 55 | Celebi | 17774 | 3.2392 | Ninetales, Snorlax, Infernape
    | 56 | Chansey | 17288 | 3.1507 | Snorlax, Jirachi, Infernape
    | 57 | Tornadus | 17143 | 3.1242 | Snorlax, Infernape
    | 58 | Jolteon | 16867 | 3.0739 | Snorlax, Lilligant
    | 59 | Slowbro | 16427 | 2.9938 | Lilligant
    | 60 | Sigilyph | 15826 | 2.8842 | Ninetales


    Closing Statements
    So that's all I have for the team right now. It is good? I think so. Is it fun? Yes. Does it have flaws? Definitely. But at this point, I feel like I've done enough with it at this point. Not to say I won't be changing it at all, since the metagame changes with the wind, but at this point in OU, I find this to be my ideal team, as I've been easily hitting the Top 50 of the Ladder since adding Durant and finished my EV optimization. I'm finished with Emboar as well. I've proved he's a threat in OU, if not to others, then I've at least proved it to myself. I have since replaced him with Infernape as it was necessary to the team's future success, but I can easily see someone else taking Emboar to the Top 40 of the OU Ladder like I have.

    Please, please, please leave suggestions and constructive criticism. If you see something about this team that could be better, I want to know about it.

    Team Builder Importable (open)
    White Wolfos (Ninetales) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 40 SDef / 216 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Overheat
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Safeguard
    - Power Swap


    Biggoron (Snorlax) (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Return
    - Pursuit
    - Fire Punch
    - Earthquake


    Twinrova (Jirachi) @ Shuca Berry
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Fire Punch
    - Ice Punch
    - Healing Wish


    Beth (Rotom-W) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Sunny Day
    - Thunder Wave
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch


    Koume (Infernape) (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - ThunderPunch
    - U-turn
    - Close Combat
    - Flare Blitz


    Kalle Demos (Lilligant) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 76 SDef / 180 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Healing Wish
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    JGSabino likes this.
  2. Jenica

    Jenica

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    89
    I was looking at your Threat List and I figured out that Conkeldurr can take on all of them. From what I remember, he survives a +2 Extremespeed from Lucario and can OHKO with either Drain or Mach Punch (maybe not Mach, but I know Drain does). Sawsbuck dies to Mach Punch, Infernape does as well (I believe) and Terrakion hates Conkeldurr with a passion. I'd go with the standard set, but a more defensive set may benefit more.
  3. Enraikou

    Enraikou

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    77
    what about:
    Darknut (Bisharp) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Defiant
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -Sp.Atk)
    - Rock Polish
    - Sucker Punch
    - Brick Break (Breaks opponent's Reflect, Light Screen, & Safeguard)
    - Psycho Cut (High Critical Hit rate)


    I have always used this set and it is (for me) better than jolly one^^. Also liked your zelda pictures!!
  4. LupeWilde

    LupeWilde

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    86
    i like the team
  5. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    264
    Absolutely amazing team buddy. Well presented and has some amazing unheard of Pokemon and sets that WORK. I however would think Infernape would work better over Emboar. If you carry Mach Punch that is almost all your threats gone! Something like Overheat / CC / Thunder Punch + Mach Punch.

    Good Job
  6. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    957
    I tried Conkeldurr as a Emboar replacement for a while yesterday and he just seems like dead weight. He doesn't OHKO Lucario without resorting to Guts + Flame Orb, Infernape & Terrakion are the same story. The only threat he really took care of was Sawsbuck. That pure Fighting-typing makes him a lot harder to switch-in than I'm used to with Emboar. I'll have to take a pass on him, but thanks anyway.

    Thanks!

    I tried that Infernape set and I'm loving it. I normally run Stealth Rock over ThunderPunch, but I'm glad I gave that set a shot. Even though, Close Combat does more to Water-types, I've ran into a fair about of Jellicent and ThunderPunch is definitely helping.


    I recently got a Dream World Nidoran-F, so I started looking into Sheer Force Nidoqueen. Comparing her to Nidoking and 4th Gen Nidoqueen. Making custom sets for a little while until I finally came up with this:

    [​IMG]
    Nidoqueen (F) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Sheer Force

    EVs: 156 HP / 136 Def / 216 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Fire Blast
    - Ice Beam
    - Toxic Spikes

    Right now, this is what I'm testing over Bisharp. This is a combination of 4th Gen's Toxic Spikes Nidoqueen and 5th Gen's Nidoking, effectively applying what Nidoking does on a bulkier Pokemon. The Defensive EVs aren't exactly optimized yet as I haven't ran very many calculations yet. But I have at least optimized the Sp.Attack EVs. Nidoqueen with 216 Sp.Atk EVs OHKOs Max HP/Sp.Def Ferrothorn in Sand, Terrakion in Sun (And resists BOTH its STABs), Lucario, Infernape, Sawsbuck, Garchomp, and Gliscor. It can even survive an unboosted attack from all of them thanks to Air Balloon, so Nidoqueen does effectively counters all my threats. (Infernape being iffy due to Sun-boosted Overheat, but my own Infernape can handle it if need be)

    This does however open some old wounds as with no Steel-type, by team becomes weak to Outrage again. Nidoqueen can survive an Outrage from most Dragons and hit back with Ice Beam, but it doesn't feel like a safe enough option to not consider it a big threat.

    Probably the best thing about this set is how easy it makes some Pokemon to KO as they expect the tried and true 4th Gen Nidoqueen and forget that she has Sheer Force now raising her mediocre Sp.Atk to a very respectable 354 (or 312 in my case) making her powerful enough to not have to be completely defensive and can run Ice Beam effectively as well as Earth Power instead of Earthquake. So when that Gliscor tries to Taunt and set-up on this Nidoqueen, he's going to end up with something entirely different to deal with.


    But rambling aside, what do you guys think of it? Once I test Nidoqueen & Infernape enough, if I truly think they're the next big step, I'll commit them to the RTM's OP. But until then, hell, even after then, please offer ideas, suggestions, and criticism.
  7. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    Hey, very good team you have here Katakiri, you're in the unfortunate position where any adjustment you make to do one thing better means you lose the ability to do something else :\.

    I do agree with the Infernape over Emboar - however good he is the added speed and priority will serve you excellently I'm sure. SR is certainly a viable option if you aren't using T-Punch too much, since hindering switches a ton is probably far, far more useful than being able to hit Gyara and Jellicent, who don't really give you too many issues anyway.

    Nidoqueen seems a fine choice as well, though with T-Spikes you'll have to be careful to exhaust Sleep Powder and possibly WoW before setting them down in order to not hinder yourself - Toxic could be an option to help you not screw yourself over like this. Outrageing Dragons honestly shouldn't be too bad to deal with for you, since all non-Scarf ones will have pretty severe trouble actually getting one off on your team - Snorlax locked on Pursuit and -2 Lilligant with Sleep Powder used are the main opportunities if you also add WoW over EB on Tales. Chomp is another issue if you face a Scarfed one, but at least it can't switch in, meaning you should be in an advantageous situation initially.

    And in case you hadn't realised, I strongly suggest WoW over EB on Tales :P. In my experience EB has proved useless, and being able to neuter physical as well as special attackers is very useful. CB TTar also utterly destroys your current Tales, almost OHKOing it as it switches out, since you lack WoW, which is the main reason I tend to run it or Sub on every Tales.

    Overall though, really great team, love the use of Snorlax and Lilligant's advantages.
  8. jynx KB

    jynx KB

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    226
    OK, I'm no good with calculations whatsoever, but just by sheer typing, have you considered Lucario over Bisharp?

    You keep your Steel type, Priority, and Fighting STAB, not to mention the ability to Swords Dance.

    As for everything else, I love the fact that this isn't just a standard Sun team., and you've obviously put alot of thought and testing into your sets. (and I'm loving the use of Snorlax)

    It's a shame there isn't a Steel/Ghost in the game, as that would help your synergy tremendously. Foretress is the udual Steel I see on Sun teams, but you don't need its defensive or supportive role.

    Against my better judgement, I'm also going to ask that you at least consider Gengar. I know he doesn't fit as well with the team, but it puts a near stop to Sawsbuck especially, Immune to Return, Earthquake and Jump Kick, and resisting Horn Leech.

    The issue is it of course increases your reliance on Special attackers, and leaning into that advice even more, Heatran can run a similar set to your current Nidoqueen with, using Stealth Rock (probably the better choice over Toxic Spikes) and HP Ice. It gets a Steel Typing, but losing a Spikes absorber yourself unfortunately.

    Sorry, I'm more brainstorming then rating, but in all seriousness this team looks amazing. I just can't think of one change that will magically fix every hole you're having trouble with.
  9. Jenica

    Jenica

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    89
    If you don't mind, I'm going to do some testing for this team. So far, I've been using Conkeldurr and he seems to work fine for me. Perhaps we're using him differently.
    Regardless, the team has inspired me to write my own RMT for Sun. If you don't mind, I would like to use some of your ideas. Of course, I'll give you credit.
  10. Ninjadolphin

    Ninjadolphin

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    115
    You have a glaring fighting type weakness with really nothing to take strong close combats. I would reccomend replacing snorlax or emboar with this gengar set:
    Timid gengar@ leftovers
    200 hp, 56 spatk, 252 spd
    Substitute
    Disable
    Pain split
    Shadow ball
    This gengar is great at foring switches and generally annoying the opponent. It is fast enough to outspeed and get a sub up, then use disable to make it so they cant use that move. Shadow ball is there just to have an attakc and pain split is there for recovery.
  11. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    957
    For some reason, most of my teams end up like that. A very delicate balance of Pokemon. Must be my playstyle or something. Either way it's a little annoying. -.-

    Energy Ball's getting replaced by WoW. I meant to replace it a while ago, but I got to caught-up in doing damage calcs & tests for the other Pokemon that I kind of just forgot about it.

    I definitely see where you're coming from with Nidoqueen. I haven't been finding myself using Toxic Spikes much anyway. Only really laying them down against stall teams. I'll try out Toxic since Sp.Def Bulky Dragonite has been trying to stall-out my Ice Beam PP with Sub + Roost. Although looking through what she out-speeds and what tends to switch-in on her, Taunt is looking like a good option as well. It would help with my Sigilyph issue too.

    Lucario doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. I'll have to try it out tomorrow.

    I've used Gengar before and it's not quite as good as it should be on a team with no Stealth Rock. I'll try it out later and give Infernape SR to see how it would do.

    I'm trying Nidoqueen to put a stop to all the threats to my team. Heatran doesn't stop any of them and actually adds to my problems. :/

    Sure. Feel free to do what you want with them.

    We probably are. But he doesn't hit those Pokemon that counters the team hard enough. It's just like Garchomp's stituation but slower. If any of them Swords Dance as Conkel switches in, all he can do is Mach Punch for 70-80% and get OHKO'd by them. It didn't feel like a good enough fix as I'm still going to lose him in the process.


    Loving the feedback so far, guys. I'm trying Flare Blitz over ThunderPunch on Infernape right now. I'm REALLY missing being able to drill holes into Reuniclus & Sigilyph like Emboar did. I'll let you know how it goes.
  12. Jenica

    Jenica

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    89
    After testing, I totally agree with you on Conkeldurr. he's only really good against Jellicent, who is already covered.
    I'm going to try out Lucario as well. He seems like he could fit well on a team like this.
    I'll post more results later.
  13. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    264
    Okay,

    I've come back with results :). After the application of physics and calculus I believe I have found a way to improve your teams synergy. Playing over at PO I got to use the most amazing core of SB Blaziken + TW LO Thundurus. THey have great synergy together and also take out what the opposing mon can't (Thundurus takes out Bulky Waters while Blaziken takes out Blissey/Chansey). Unfortunately for you Smogon doesn't allow Blaziken no more (I hope that changes). However you can still achieve the same kind of result with Infernape + Thundurus. Thundurus keeps the team offensive and adds the all important fighting resist. His Focus Blast can also OHKO TTar, something your Lilligant can't do 100% of the time (they're more bulky sets coming). I would try Infernape > Emboar (I think you already are) and Thundurus > Garchomp. I found teams to well prepared for Garchomp, seeing as how he is the #1 most used at PO while THundurus is near impossible to wall.

    Show Hide

    Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 8 HP / 252 SAtk / 248 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunder Wave
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast

    Just enough speed to outrun base 110's seeing as when you see one of your brothers you should be TW'ing anyway. 3 moves = complete coverage, but you should take the opporunities of steel Pokemon for Infernape to switch in and wreck shit up. If you want you can put Nasty Plot > Focus Blast (I actually recommend that for you) because Infernape isn't setting up for you (Blaziken is for me) and Focus Blast is kinda redundant, only nabbing a OHKO on TTar that is important. Everyone knows about BoltBeam. TW is to save you against something that has gotten out of control (DD Haxorus) and you need to slow it down to tame it.



    Next I put the 252 EV's in HP and 4 EV's in SDef for Snorlax. I think it works better but I haven't done any calcs. Also put 252 EV's from speed into HP for Bisharp seeing as how I rarely used anything but SP and he has a pretty measily speed stat. I wouldn't opt to change Bisharp for Lucario simply becuase he offers the strongest form of defense against physical attackers for you team.

    GL
  14. BurtonEarny

    BurtonEarny

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    561
    the ninetales and lilligant sets are absolutely wonderful. Particularly the ninetales set just crushes bulky waters and makes them absolute set up fodder. And the nidoqueen tends to completely sweep sand teams on its own as long as the sand isnt up, and sometimes even if it is. I want to say use SR, but I dont see a spot for it as nidoqueen cant use it and sheer force in the same set (as I type this I see your running and infernape with it now).

    I do have to ask why bisharp over the sd scizor set everyone is running now?
  15. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    Just a brief comment, since you now have Nidoqueen to suck up T-Spikes (not even gonna contemplate how that works O_o) you could think about dropping Safeguard on Tales for something like Rest with a Chesto Berry or Sub for insurance against whatever comes your way. Ofc the advantages it provides are still great, so its entirely up to you, just food for thought.
  16. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    957
    Alright, so updated the OP. Infernape is official now. The last moveslot is totally up for grabs, so idk if you guys could help sway me one way of the other, but right now I'm still trying out all of them to find the most helpful option.

    The status of Nidoqueen right now is "maybe." She stops Lucario & Terrakion dead in their tracks, but once her Air Balloon pops...that's about all she does. Yeah she can stop stall, KO Ferrothorn, and piss off Conkeldurr and potentially Scizor, but she loses the ability to hit Garchomp due to her Ground weakness and she draws Psycho Shocks from Latios which Snorlax doesn't really like to touch since they 2HKO him. Right now the set is:
    Nidoqueen (F) @ Air Balloon Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 156 HP / 136 Def / 216 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Fire Blast
    - Ice Beam
    - Taunt

    Idk, she's a mixed bag. She's damn good against Sand and Stall and she stops my biggest counters, but she's too slow/just not quite as bulky as I want her to be. If there was an improvement to either one, I'd be perfectly happy with her.

    I tried Thundurus yesterday and it wasn't bad at all, but when I switched back to Garchomp to make the comparison, Garchomp just holds up better overall. He's not as fast, but her has so much more bulk that allows me to survive hits like +2 Lucario Extremespeed. I felt priority T-Wave was the most useful thing about him.

    I'll give him another shot today, but he's gotta wow me at this point to replace Garchomp.

    Also, you need 252 in Speed to beat the 110 tier. Hidden Power Ice lowers your Speed and makes you only 350 Speed with your EVs.

    Oh, and Snorlax takes Special hits better with 252 in Sp.Def. Not HP. Latios takes about 10% more HP with Max HP, meaning Snorlax is easily KO'd by a -2 Draco Meteor after the first hit.

    Thanks!

    Well to be totally honest, I chose it when I was looking for a Sucker Puncher. Scizor never even came to mind. But Sucker Punch has better coverage than Bullet Punch and more power. It scares away Latios, Thundurus, Most Bulky Waters, Darmanitan, and it's just a scary Pokemon to be facing as it can OHKO anything that doesn't resist at +2 and shave 1/2 to 3/4 of a Pokemon's total HP without a boost.

    I'm actually trying out Scizor right now. I'm loving U-turn & Superpower, but that's about it.

    Safeguard protects me from far more than Toxic Spikes. It's actually my only insurance that Snorlax can beat Bulky Volcarona as Safeguard blocks Flame Body's Burn effect. Sometimes it even activates twice in a row but doesn't Burn him because of Safeguard. It turns Rotom-W into set-up fodder for Garchomp, pisses off Chansey, Jellicent, and other Ninetales / Sun teams running Hypnosis & Sleep Powder.

    It's just one of those things that seems like an inferior option to most people, but it's absolutely incredible. And I really don't need Rest since I have Leftovers and I'm very careful about when I send in my Ninetales. Sometimes I'll allow Sand or Rain to be up for 5 to 10 turns before I switch Ninetales back in. I don't let her die, even to Stealth Rock, unless I have formed some sort of game plan to deal with the other weather.
  17. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    @Your response - haha yeah, that's fair enough, it's just hard for an avid user of ChestoRest Tales and a more Sun-reliant team to not at least bring up the possibility!

    Anyway, an option I suppose over Bisharp would be Bronzong, who gives you SR and HP ice to deal with Dragons. He tanks Outrage fantastically, but that lack of Speed and priority means that in Sun he is practically asking for a Fire Fang at +2 to OHKO him (found this out after some calcs), which is very unfortunate :/, so I'm not sure it'd work out well. Worth mentioning I guess.

    EDIT: In terms of Nape's 4th move which I forgot to talk about earlier, I'd think you wouldn't need Mach punch unless you dropped Bisharp, and Dragonite shouldn't be too large of an issue for you with Bisharp and Tales' WoW if need be, so I'd treat WoW as a kind of if all else fails option (though you could use HP Ice/SE over it tbh if you needed to take care of your STAB resistors).

    Thunderpunch is probably the best in terms of general coverage along with SE, but it may well be better to simply U-Turn out of the things that would wall you and take momentum with another team member, so U-Turn looks pretty good for you imo. SR is the other move I'd heavily consider - I'm sure you know the value of making your opponent unable to switch freely, but if your team works without that pressure (as it seems very much to) then I could understand not putting it in. There seems to be good reason to try it and see if it does help make your team even better, however, so certainly test SR and U-Turn out at the least.
  18. BurtonEarny

    BurtonEarny

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    561
    ive been runing a more bulky version of your ninetails. calm nature max sp atk with just enough speed to outrun jolly brelooms (263 spe I believe). Anyway it just makes me laugh at how well it handles things like volcarona (none super effective hp versions), rueniculus and mono attack lati@s, politoad (it trashes politoad if the sun is up). I didnt understand why you were running max speed to begin with, but perhaps you may want to try the bulkier spread. Move wise, Its probably my favorite pokemon set I've used so far this gen.
  19. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    957
    HP Ice on Infernape is kinda useless with my EV spread. It does about the same amount of damage to Garchomp as Close Combat. I'd honestly prefer Will-O-Wisp over it just because it's more effective against Dragonite & Haxorus, but for right now I'll stick with U-Turn or Stealth Rock unless it's obvious that I need something else.

    I'll try that bulky Ninetales set. Seems like a good idea.

    So I have a new replacement for Bisharp. Nidoqueen wasn't working out even after I optimized her EVs.

    [​IMG]
    Durant (M) @ Wide Lens
    Trait: Hustle
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Crunch
    - X-Scissor
    - Thunder Wave

    Beats Terrakion & Sawsbuck and can out-speed & T-Wave Infernape, Lucario, & Haxorus. Hustle is just awesome.

    The set is kind of...Durant. Dig's his only option to hit Steel-types so I'm playing around with that a bit, but I think T-Wave's gonna be better in the long run.

    Durant's fun to use if anything else.
  20. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    Just a note of warning on that slower Ninetales - if you hit less than 303 Spe then you lose the ability to revenge-kill Excadrill (I think that's hit with Timid and 160EVs). Since your Tales isn't a stallish variant with Sub+Toxic/Disable/Protect or something like that, I'd think that you'd at least want to retain a decent amount of speed so as to cripple Dragons and such with WoW or get off a Power Swap against something, though dropping some speed for bulk could work nicely.

    And man, I love your inventiveness :D. Durant's nice base speed looks fantastic for you, such a shame it isn't one higher so it can tie with the Latis... There are two suggestion's I'd give for him. If you use SE/Rock Slide over perhaps Crunch, then you can hit all the Bug/Steels and Heatran for neutral, whilst X-Scissor covers Ferro and the Psychic/Steels, so it could be a reasonably useful for you. The other possibility is Screech perhaps over T-Wave, which could assist you in taking out those opposing steels, but since you need it to kill the speed of a lot of things it's again really just an option I wanted to bring up.
  21. min min

    min min

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2010
    Messages:
    939
    One of the better RMTs, I especially love the UU section. Interesting pokemon choices, it seems Lilligant does have some other use than sweeping (I had no idea it could learn Healing Wish). Luvdisc!
  22. changos

    changos

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    31
    wow just .. wow this is a really cool team i don't have any changes definitely the best RTM i have seen in a while
  23. BurtonEarny

    BurtonEarny

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    561
    revenging excadrill should never be an issue for this team, but that speed could work for sure. Also, most tyranitar aren't ohko'd by leaf storm.
  24. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    Just from a glance it seems that Katakiri's whole team is outsped and OHKOd by a +2 Excadrill in sand, and without Mach Punch on Nape he has no other way to revenge it, so I'm not sure where you're coming from on that one, unless I've missed something big!
  25. BurtonEarny

    BurtonEarny

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    561
    i usually count on tyranitar being dead early, but yes in the sand he is an issue. That being said, he doesn't set up too easily on something that wont put him into nape revenge range. even iron head from durant does a fair amount to him. Overall outspeeding excadrill is probably the better option, but I just love how ninetails destroys cm users and quiver dancers with the bulk she has.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)