Prequel To The Sequel (QC work to be done before XY, all QCers must read)

#26
also these things:

- Make Shuca Berry + SR / Fire Punch or Icy Wind / HP Ice or Thunderbolt / Thunder or Iron Head or Energy Ball the main option over Expert Belt in current mixed Jirachi.

- Rocky Helmet / Focus Sash on lead Garchomp -- whole analysis being revamped. Also AC mention Draco Meteor + max Special Attack.

- Change Keldeo set order to All-Out Attacker/Scarf/Specs/Offensive/SubCM -- Offensive has 3 attacks plus CM/Sub.

- Phys Def Hippowdon to first set.

- TR / NP / Shadow Ball / HP Fighting + max HP / max SAtk Quiet Cofagrigus analysis.
 
#27
Terrakion set order should be CB / SR / SubSD / Double Dance / Scarf.

Sub attacking Kyu-B should not be physically based. It should be Sub | Earth Power | Ice Beam | Fusion Bolt, with Dragon Claw / Outrage slashed after Ice Beam. Specially based mixed needs to have Focus Blast as a primary slash (second moveslot, Earth Power / Draco Meteor go after it), and needs Fusion Bolt slashed in the third slot as well. On the topic of set order: Sub attacker, specially based mix, CB, Scarf, Sub shuffler, physically based mix.
 
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Pocket

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#28
PK Gaming said:
Jellicent: Give it enough speed to outrun Wobbuffet + Slash Shadow Ball w/ status moves
@PK Gaming , I want your approval before I make any on-site changes to Jellicent, since BKC, AG, jukain and I talked, and they wanted something different from what you suggested.

- AC speedy spread and make max HP / max Def the main spread
- jellicent should always have a status move - BKC suggested this moveset:

move 1: Will-o-Wisp
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Recover
move 4: Scald / Night Shade / Shadow Ball
AC Toxic

I'd like some more input here / approval from PK Gaming here

PS: Slashed Water Gem onto Special Attacker Politoed; expanded a bit on Water Gem in AC
 
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#29
It might also be worth it to AC Magic Coat on Jellicent - it's a great move against both stall teams and HO leads alike, although requires very careful prediction.
 
#30
ok so:

- slash psychic with surf on scarftoed, toxicroak is annoying

- encore / perish song in the last slot, and drop hypnosis to ac.

- passho berry should be a main option on volc, and air balloon deserves a mention somewhere for setting up on choice-locked ground-type attacks

I will be rewriting Ninetales's defensive set, and the last slot will be changed to Roar / Toxic. I wrote the original analysis, and the current defensive write-up is fluffy and overzealous.
 
#31
okay sorry to double post but I fixed stuff:

- Condensed Ninetales's defensive set from 10 paragraphs down to 5.

- Changed Keldeo set order to one we decided on. Slashed Substitute with CM on offensive CM as we all agreed.

- Changed Terrakion set order to one we decided on.

- Slashed Psychic on Scarf and Specs Politoed. Dropped Hypnosis to AC on Scarf. Mentioned HP Electric in Scarf AC.

@PK Gaming, make these notes for the following things in the OP:

Heatran: Add a flame charge set(?) It's competitive use is debatable so i'd like some input on this please BKC is doing this.

Jirachi: Shuca Berry needs a mention somewhere I am revamping the Mixed set, renaming it "Mixed Lure" and making Shuca Berry the only option on the main set, as well as Stealth Rock alone in a slot and Fire Punch or Icy Wind / Hidden Power Ice or Thunderbolt or Energy Ball (AC Thunder, maybe slash ?_? idk) / Iron Head for the attacks.

Tailwind: Deserves being mentioned on several prominent Pokemon Hydreigon, Tornadus, and Skarmory are the most significant, imho. Lead Aerodactyl is also very good.

Keldeo: SubCM should be changed to accommodate Sub + 3 atks We decided to slash Sub on offensive CM because it is more alike to that set. I've done this.

Politoed: Water Gem Politoed + Fix the slash order This is done.

Breloom: On the Subseed Breloom set, Protect Should be slashed with Substitute and Focus Punch should be slashed with Drain Punch. Change the name Leech Seed We decided to get rid of SubSeed and make Protect + Leech Seed + Drain Punch + Spore a main set.
Brii's post also provided a good to-do list, so I'll mark off what we've completed from there.

Dice said:
  • flame charge heatran isn't deserving of a set imo, ac. it's nice at times, but it's more of a niche move. slashing works BKC is making a set for it, as we've decided.
  • i think 252 hp / 240 def / 16 spe timid should be the main tenta spread; outspeeding breloom/dnite and anything lower. AC mentioned should be 286 spe and 290 spe for kyurem(-b). The Tentacruel spread has been fixed.
  • wispgar should just be slashed with disable or w/e, arguing over the set names / slash order is kinda a waste of time Yep, merging the two Sub sets, as we've already said.
  • jirachi doesn't deserve a shuca set, just mention it in ac of ebelt. also mention hp fire - stealth rock - energy ball - icy wind and stealth rock - iron head - thunderbolt - hidden power ice in the ac as well for stealth rock sets as they are useful. The current Mixed set is being essentially replaced with the Shuca Berry set. Expert Belt will get a heavy mention in AC.
  • focus sash should be slashed on garchomp, but shouldn't be the main slash. it often isn't ohkod bar lati@s; even sashtar ice beam can't ko depending on ev's of both and rocky helmet / yache / haban or whatever are all really nice. We've agreed to put Rocky Helmet / Focus Sash as the main options. Yache / Haban are up for debate.
  • king's rock should slashed on cloyster for sure It is now the first slash before NeverMeltIce. The other options have been dropped to AC.
  • on the thundy-t analysis we should mention leftovers + focus blast / grass knot. it's cool since tyranitar always switches into lefties thundy-t expecting double dance to get ko'd by one of the respective moves This is on the to-do list.
  • dd normal gem gyara (dd, waterfall, dedge, filler) is an effective rotom-w lure, ac or set? This is going to be slashed into offensive DD.
  • flame orb latias (trick, draco, psyshock, roost/hwish) is wonderful, ac or set? We will be giving it a set. Someone has to do it.
  • gastrodon's best spread (imo) is physically defensive. we should discuss this This warrants more discussion.
  • i've used sub 3 atks keldeo before. gr8astard introduced it and it's pretty cool. could slash hp ice / ghost after cm on the subcm set and rename it sub We decided to slash Substitute after Calm Mind on offensive CM and rename it 'Offensive'.
  • just ac twave on ferrothorn; mention to only use it if you're desperately weak to volcarona. it's substandard otherwise I will get on this.
  • i wouldn't mind subswagger tornadus getting a set.. can beat its counters especially with spike support This warrants more discussion.
  • slash hp fire with will-o-wisp on rotom-w to ohko offensive scizor / 2hko ferrothorn. mention a spread of 124 hp / 252 spa / 132 spe timid in ac to outspace breloom / dnite This warrants more discussion.
  • TR cofag is cool as a spinblocker, someone should write him up We've agreed that this will happen.
  • make landorus-t's pivot spread faster, 270 probably? Done.
  • ac mention ice punch on gatr, typically a bastard child move between superpower and crunch and is not worth it I will do this.
  • for subseed breloom, slash protect with sub and drain punch with focus punch and then rename it. it's a pretty cool set and protect makes it never die We're getting rid of SubSeed Breloom as it blows and making this a main set.
  • give jellicent more speed ev's to outspeed wobb, slash shadow ball with status and ac mention shadow > scald As has been posted, this is up for discussion. We plan on AC'ing Speed and making no Speed the main option. Shadow Ball will be slashed with Scald, as we agreed non-status Jellicent sucks.
  • slash water gem with leftovers on special attacker politoed and fix nasty slash order on defensive We need to discuss the defensive slash order, but Water Gem is slashed.
  • physdef hippo > spdef This is done.
-----------------------------

More stuff to take care of:

- Salac Berry needs to be slashed first on SubSD Terrakion. I'm thinking Salac Berry / Rock Gem and dropping Life Orb to AC?

- Rock Slide is a good filler option on CB Terrakion. Slashes for the last slot to Rock Slide / Sacred Sword / Quick Attack or Sacred Sword / Rock Slide / Quick Attack?

- Politoed set order could be revised. I'm thinking Scarf/defensive/Specs/special attacker, since Scarf has become much better in this metagame.

-----------------------------

Current stuff to discuss:

- Defensive set slash order on Politoed. It is currently:

move 1: Scald
move 2: Protect / Ice Beam / Refresh
move 3: Perish Song / Encore
move 4: Toxic / Hypnosis

imo: AC Refresh and slash Ice Beam before Protect. Possibly AC Hypnosis? Not sure.

Dice said:
slash hp fire with will-o-wisp on rotom-w to ohko offensive scizor / 2hko ferrothorn. mention a spread of 124 hp / 252 spa / 132 spe timid in ac to outspace breloom / dnite
Dice said:
gastrodon's best spread (imo) is physically defensive. we should discuss this
Dice said:
i wouldn't mind subswagger tornadus getting a set.. can beat its counters especially with spike support
I agree with these points, but I want a consensus before we actually go through with them.

- We agreed to put Rocky Helmet / Focus Sash as the main slashes on SR Chomp. Slash Yache, Haban, or both?
 
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#32
Yache only. Haban sucks.

Physdef Gastrodon is way better than spdef.

Refresh on defensive Toed is actually really good, especially against Sun.
 

alexwolf

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#33
  • Physically defensive Gastrodon should replace the existing set and the SpD one can just get a mention in AC
  • Analytic should be slashed on the Specs set too on Starmie
  • Agreeing with having only one Sub set for Gengar, with Disable, Pain Split, and WoW all slashed together
  • Agreed on making 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe with Timind the spread on Tentacruel
  • Remove Gravity from the Offensive Pivot set which just makes zero sense. Landorus-T is one of the best SR users so i don't see why you wouldn't want to use SR on it. But, however if you have problems with Breloom Sleep Talk Lando-T makes for a decent check to it so i guess we can either slash it after SR or just mention it in AC. Also Stone Edge should be slashed after HP Ice
  • Life Orb should be a main item on Cloyster as it just helps get too many OHKO/2HKOes. King's Rock is not reliable enough to be a main item, but is good enough for AC. Beating a check/counter 40% of the time is nice and all but unreliable as fuck, and Cloyster is not easy to setup with in the first place
  • An AC mention of Normal Gem + Double Edge in the offensive Dragon Dance set of Gyarados is the right place for it
  • Drop Hypnosis from the defensive set of Polioted to the AC. Also make an AC mention of RestTalk on defensive Politoed which is currently in OO
  • Agreed on making Salac Berry the first item slash on SubSD Terrakion
Will try to help update the analyses after i am done with Scizor.
 
#34
alexwolf said:
  • Life Orb should be a main item on Cloyster as it just helps get too many OHKO/2HKOes. King's Rock is not reliable enough to be a main item, but is good enough for AC. Beating a check/counter 40% of the time is nice and all but unreliable as fuck, and Cloyster is not easy to setup with in the first place
  • An AC mention of Normal Gem + Double Edge in the offensive Dragon Dance set of Gyarados is the right place for it
LO Cloyster is baaaad. Cloyster takes a hit before setting up and then sets up. King's Rock gives you a 40% chance to do double damage, which averages to greater than 1.4x a boost to your attacks. 40% is GOOD. It's better than Scald, and borderline Jirachi territory. NeverMeltIce exists for consistency. You should have hazards support with Cloyster, and it still gets plenty of KOs.

alex, have you actually used Normal Gem Gyarados? In practice, I've found it extremely good to lure in and kill Rotom-W, as well as other bulky Water-types, except Jellicent. It deserves a slash on offensive DD, which desperately desires this ability to kill it.
 

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#35
Some more things I thought of:

Weather trapper Heatran should come before Scarf in the set order. It's really really good on sun teams, and I definitely think it's more useful than Scarf Heatran. Magma Storm can even beat Dugtrio on the switch, which is the whole reason to use ScarfTran in the first place, isn't it?

Sheer Force Conkeldurr should be the first set in its set order. It's its best set by far, and it's way better than Bulk Up for sure. I think it should go All-Out Attacker / Status Orb / Bulk Up / SubPunch

I think Scarf Latias deserves a set, I think. With Draco Meteor | Psyshock | Healing Wish | Trick / Surf, it can be really useful, albeit weak. Still, the utility it provides is close to that of Scarf Jirachi. I've used it before and it's really good for teams that want a Water / Fire / Grass resist, but also need the support that Healing Wish and Trick provide.

What happened to mixed Venusaur? The Giga Drain / Earthquake/ Hidden Power Ice / Growth set works great on sun teams to lure in Heatran and Dragon types, and can clear the way for a Volcarona sweep.

Knock Off should be mentioned somewhere in the AC for Landorus-T's pivot set, since it forces a lot of switches, and taking out an opponent's item is huge.
 

alexwolf

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#36
LO Cloyster is baaaad. Cloyster takes a hit before setting up and then sets up. King's Rock gives you a 40% chance to do double damage, which averages to greater than 1.4x a boost to your attacks. 40% is GOOD. It's better than Scald, and borderline Jirachi territory. NeverMeltIce exists for consistency. You should have hazards support with Cloyster, and it still gets plenty of KOs.

alex, have you actually used Normal Gem Gyarados? In practice, I've found it extremely good to lure in and kill Rotom-W, as well as other bulky Water-types, except Jellicent. It deserves a slash on offensive DD, which desperately desires this ability to kill it.
Don't even compare King's Rock Cloyster with Jirachi and Scald users. Jirachi and Scald users don't face the risk of dying if they don't get the chance to burn/flinch/paralyze which is the whole point. As i said again, 40% chance to get past a check/counter is just not reliable enough. Also i don't get your point about Cloyster taking a hit to setup and why that makes LO unviable. SD Garchomp and Rain Dance Kingdra carry Life Orb too and they both manage to do just fine with setting up. Of 'course Cloyster has bigger trouble setting up but this is true regardless of Life Orb. On the other hand with Life Orb and potentially rain up, Cloyster can get past most if its checks such as Skarmory, Jirachi, Forretress, and Keldeo.

As for Normal Gem Gyarados i never said that it's not good, just that it's not good enough to need a slash on the main set. LO Double Edge murders 232 HP Rotom-W after SR anyway, as well as most bulky waters, but Normal Gem has the advantage of always KOing Rotom-W after SR and not having recoil.
 
#37
alex, sorry, I missed the point I meant to make -- it takes the hit, sets up, and is then on a timer with lo, with which it can be stalled, and it's basically a game of 50/50's whether the opponent will shift out or fodder what's in.

I think the lack of recoil is good enough to put Normal Gem as a main slash. Having Gyarados is Mamo, Breloom, or Scizor priority range after using Double-Edge would really suck. Offensive DD Gyarados is very bland and can't get past its typical checks/counters -- Normal Gem Double-Edge gives it a better niche.
 
#39
I'm not on the QC team, but I'd like to weigh in a bit on Terrakion.

First, I'm wondering if Double Dance is even worth a set anymore? Few people even run Rock Polish anymore, much less alongside Swords Dance. I feel that the SubSD set already does a lot of what the Double Dance set does; SD lets Terrakion tear defensive teams apart, while Substitute helps against offensive teams by preventing easy revenge killing. At the very least, I feel that Life Orb should be the main item slash on that set. No one uses Air Balloon on Terrakion, and it really needs the Life Orb boost to beat offensive teams in case it can't get a Swords Dance up. That said, I agree with the current set order except that I think Double Dance needs to go after Scarf if it's kept.

Also, I'd like to bring up the possibility of slashing Earthquake with or before X-Scissor on the Band set. X-Scissor is a lot better on the Scarf set since then Terrakion can actually outspeed and possibly KO Starmie, Espeon, Latios, Latias, and Alakazam, but since these Pokemon naturally outspeed the Band set, Terrakion has to predict a switch-in (unlikely for most of these) to make it worth it. Besides that, the only slower Pokemon it helps with are Celebi and Reuniclus. While it does have use for those, Earthquake is actually pretty good right now. Toxicroak is a pretty good switch-in to even Band Terrakion since the Bulk Up sets are only 3HKO'd by CB Close Combat in Rain, and Earthquake lures those in and OHKOs with ease. It also helps against other common Rain Pokemon such as Tentacruel and Jirachi, letting you hit both harder than either STAB, and if your opponent has both Pokemon, you can hit either with Earthquake without having to predict with the correct STAB move. It's also Terrakion's best bet against rare checks like Nidoqueen and Golurk, which is a nice bonus I suppose.

Just a couple of ideas I've been mulling over lately. I'd just like to see what the QC team thinks.
 
#40
I disagree with removing double dance Terrakion, it is still a terror. However I do agree with getting rid of Air Balloon cause it sucks, Life Orb should be the main item and Fighting Gem deserves a slash or at the very least a mention somewhere. Earthquake on CB sounds good (more useful than X-Scissor at least), Tentacruel is a pain in the ass and Toxicroak isn't too far behind it.
 

alexwolf

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#42
alex, sorry, I missed the point I meant to make -- it takes the hit, sets up, and is then on a timer with lo, with which it can be stalled, and it's basically a game of 50/50's whether the opponent will shift out or fodder what's in.

I think the lack of recoil is good enough to put Normal Gem as a main slash. Having Gyarados is Mamo, Breloom, or Scizor priority range after using Double-Edge would really suck. Offensive DD Gyarados is very bland and can't get past its typical checks/counters -- Normal Gem Double-Edge gives it a better niche.
Now that i think about it better, Normal Gem Double Edge does a ton to most bulky Water-types and is strong enough to OHKO plenty of Pokemon while simultaneously activating Moxie which helps Gyarados sweep even without any boosting item. And yeah it's true that Double Edge + LO + potential SR damage puts Gyarados too quickly to prioryt KO range. So i am ok with Double Edge getting a slash on the offensive set and Normal Gem being slashed after LO.
 
#43
Okay, so it appears we have a consensus. I will SCMS Double-Edge + Normal Gem into offensive DD Gyarados, and AC Return.

Also, apparently we already have Double Dance Gliscor on-site in the form of the AcroBat set, which has the last slash as Substitute / Agility. I'm inclined to drop Substitute to AC, as I've gotten sentiments that Substitute is kind of bad. However, at the very least, Agility should be slashed first. Opinions on this?
 

ginganinja

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#44
Agreeing with everthing alexwolf said on post 33(?) except

  • Life Orb should be a main item on Cloyster as it just helps get too many OHKO/2HKOes. King's Rock is not reliable enough to be a main item, but is good enough for AC. Beating a check/counter 40% of the time is nice and all but unreliable as fuck, and Cloyster is not easy to setup with in the first place
I never really liked Life Orb on my cloyster. If I wanted a power boost, I would always go Icicle Plate (which IDK, Lee spoke in favour of like a year ago) because 90% of the time, your spamming Icicle Spear. Other than that, I would go for Kings Rock because beating a HARD COUNTER 40% of the time IS GOOD. I wouldn't underrate this, but apparently alexwolf does so guess we need more input on this. I really don't like LO tho.

Agreeing with the Terrakion points.

I never really liked Substitute on AcroBat when SV got hit. Like, you couldn't really stall out Rotom-W as "reliably" as before, and so I prefered Agility, just cos outspeeding a lot of stuff is really cool when your trying to sweep. I still don't think its an amazing set in the meta with Skarmory fairly common now but w/e, still good enough for a set.
 
#45
ginganinja said:
I never really liked Life Orb on my cloyster. If I wanted a power boost, I would always go Icicle Plate (which IDK, Lee spoke in favour of like a year ago) because 90% of the time, your spamming Icicle Spear. Other than that, I would go for Kings Rock because beating a HARD COUNTER 40% of the time IS GOOD. I wouldn't underrate this, but apparently alexwolf does so guess we need more input on this. I really don't like LO tho.
NeverMeltIce = Icicle Plate. NeverMeltIce just sounds cooler, lol.

Oh yeah @alexwolf's post:

I will SCMS everything except physically defensive Gastrodon and Cloyster, both of which still require more discussion. Some things have already been done, too.
 

Alter

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#46
A friendly reminder for the team to put the Custap Berry in Wobbuffet's main set with Destiny Bond. It was going to be done before but was forgotten after the editing system went down.

Edit: By the way, in the event that the staff change their mind about CustapBond having a separate set, I'd be happy to write it up.
 
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#47
@BKC the only reason I often decide to use CB Terrak over any of its other sets is because I need X-Scissor to revenge kill Celebi. Otherwise I would just go with an SD set to wallbreak.
 
#48
Okay so:

- Remove lol Sleep Powder from Growth Venusaur. Make Sleep Powder + 3 attacks the first set and its own set. Slash HP Ice with HP Fire on both.

We also need to seriously consider Bisharp. Dice think it's cool, and Defiant gives it a boost from Intimidate. STAB Sucker Punch is great too. I think it's worth an analysis. You guys?
 

alexwolf

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#49
I already tried to make a set for it and it got rejected jukain. If something changed and we are considering getting it through QC again then i am all for it. The set i used btw was SD / Sucker Punch / Night Slash / Low Kick, Adamant with 164 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe.

Also, agreeing that Double Dance Terrakion is still a very potent sweeper, especially under screens and with some HP investment. Babiri Berry and Chople Berry are also fantastic items for it and both deserve at least an AC mention and even a slash on the main set. Keep it as a main set.
 
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#50
Cherub Agent said:
here are just some rhydon calcs against opponents
176+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 342-404 (84.65 - 100%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

176+ Atk Rhydon Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 270-324 (83.59 - 100.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


176+ Atk Rhydon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 196-232 (55.36 - 65.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
176+ Atk Rhydon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 228-272 (64.77 - 77.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (dead if it comes in on EQ)
176+ Atk Rhydon Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 340-404 (99.12 - 117.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

---

here is the funny stuff

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 230-272 (55.55 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 174-206 (42.02 - 49.75%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 196-232 (47.34 - 56.03%) -- 80.86% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 156-184 (37.68 - 44.44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 177-208 (42.75 - 50.24%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 141-166 (34.05 - 40.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
248 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 268-324 (64.73 - 78.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 216-256 (52.17 - 61.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 264-312 (63.76 - 75.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 208-252 (50.24 - 60.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

two EV spreads: the 252 hp / 176 atk / 80 def one is what ive been using for reqs, as it avoids the 2hko from cb scizor bullet punch and has a pretty great offensive presence. the second one is a simple 252 / 252 impish spread that walls every physical attacker pretty much, and still has a nifty 296 attack.
Discuss Rhydon for OU analysis imo.
 
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