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Discussion in 'BW OU Analyses' started by PK Gaming, Aug 19, 2013.
why did we let this guy on the qc team again
sorry bkc, I meant discuss it
lol, I am just trying to keep an open mind, and cherub/shake both reported good findings.
jukain i already told you on irc that Rhydon is outclassed by Rhyperior. So if you want to convince the QC team about something better try about Rhyperior, which is already considered pretty bad for OU. All this bulk matters nothing when you are always taking two hits before striking, have no Leftovers, and a fuckton of Pokemon that mess you up. What are you doing with it? Ok it can avoid the 2HKO from Scizor's Superpower and Bullet Punch, but only once. So you bring Rhydon in it takes a hit and you force Scizor out ok? Then you have a Rhydon that will be unable to switch into offensive physical sweepers again and must do something useful in the one switch that it will manage to force during the game. So better pray the opponent doesn't have Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Skarmory, or any offensive Pokemon that can take a hit and OHKO back right? Doesn't sound like much of a plan.
If I might weigh in again, Rhyperior doesn't have an OU analysis, and it's probably a lot more consistent than Rhydon in general. Due to Solid Rock, Rhyperior is taking approximately the same or less from super-effective attacks as Rhydon with equal investment. For example:
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 234-276 (53.91 - 63.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 222-264 (53.62 - 63.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 363-432 (83.64 - 99.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 376-448 (90.82 - 108.21%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
This is even worse offset by the fact that Rhyperior can hold Leftovers, which further widens the gap. It also has a higher Atk stat to boot, and so it gets more impressive numbers than those Rhydon calcs.
This isn't to say that I think either are good in OU, but I'd pick Rhyperior > Rhydon for an OU analysis any day.
EDIT: alexwolf beat me to it.
i was hoping that the rhydon thing was a joke but apparently it was serious and rhyperior is in the discussion now... so: both are trash and shouldnt even be considered for analyses, end of
If you're thinking about giving Cofagrigus an analysis (which it should have btw), the EVs for a tentative Offensive Trick Room set should be 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD. There's no reason for it to hit 320 HP, since that just maximizes indirect damage done to Cofagrigus.
e: I also think that Conkeldurr should have a reordering of sets. Bulk Up isn't as good as it once was, and more often than not, I feel that the All-Out Attacker outshines it in today's metagame.
Yea I thought Rhydon was a joke as well.....
Also I tested Bisharp when it was proposed a few months back, and I really didn't like it. Sure, it packed nice power and all that, but I utterly hated the 50/50 prediction calls that Bisharp would enforce, and it wasn't amazing anyway in my experience.
ok whatever it was just a thought I was conveying from cherub who was talking about it...
agreeing on the conk re-order; all-out/bulk up/flame orb/cb?
Agreeing with the order of sets on Conkeldurr that Jukain mentioned. (the last set is SubPunch btw not CB)
Regarding the normal gem gyarados, is it legal with moxie? iirc double edge is a 3rd gen move and thus incompatible with its dw ability? Or am i way off
Lol the rhydon thing, it was ~halfway~ serious but i guess i was just amazed that it worked well for getting reqs. But then again ou ladder etc
@Cherub Agent You're right on the Gyarados thing. Double-Edge is a 3rd Gen tutor move and is therefore incompatible with Moxie.
Alright, reverting the Gyarados changes for now.
Made the changes to Jellicent via SCMS. It's ready to be cached @PK Gaming
Added Tailwind to Aero's AC. PK Gaming updated Suicune with Tailwind mention. Hydreigon, Suicune, and Tornadus already have Tailwind mentioned. We can cross out another item off the list :cool:
PS: Slashed Analytic before Natural Cure on Specs Starmie; updated Set Comments and AC @PK Gaming
The current AC of the offensive Dragon Dance set doesn't mention Normal Gem; perhaps it should be added? It does make quite a difference I suppose ? :o
The Double-Edge + Normal Gem issue has been fixed by PK guys, as the combo was indeed illegal.
I think Normal Gem + Return can be mentioned though, as it beats everything that Double Edge does with just a little Stealth Rock damage (which you SHOULD have). Otherwise, Intimidate can be used with the Double Edge + Normal Gem combo.
The problem AG is that Return + Normal Gem is simply not enough, at least not for a main set slash. Not to mention that Gyarados is often used early game to soften the opponent's team, meaning that many of its usual checks will only have suffered SR damage. Here are the calcs that prove that Return + Normal Gem is not main set-worthy:
+1 252+ Atk Normal Gem Gyarados Return vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 252-297 (84.28 - 99.33%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. The chance is smaller actually as Rotom-W will be switching into Gyarados and heal back 6.25% with lefties.
+1 252+ Atk Normal Gem Gyarados Return vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 255-300 (70.05 - 82.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Normal Gem Gyarados Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 231-272 (60.15 - 70.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Normal Gem Gyarados Return vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 296-349 (73.08 - 86.17%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Once again much smaller chance actually, as Kyu-B will be switching into Gyarados and getting a turn of Lefties
It's just not reliable enough imo, as the KOes it gets on Gyarados's check such as Rotom-W and Kyu-B only happen like 50% of the time.
EDIT: Yeah Normal Gem deserves a mention in the AC with both Return and Double-Edge definitely.
Normal Gem + Double-Edge is still worth an AC mention imo, for the crucial KOs. Just warn the readers that they would have to use Intimidate
Ehh as in I mean Normal Gem isn't mentioned in the AC. Sorry if this wasn't clear! >_>!
Added Normal Gem to AC and ready to be cached @PK Gaming
There's no sign of Passho Berry in Volcarona, which needs to be fixed. I think it was @kokoloko who has popularized this set in WCOP, so if he could weigh in that would be cool. However, the fact that it can set up a QD boost on offensive Water-types like Keldeo is just too good in the current metagame. Whether this set should have its own separate analysis or simply get a big mention in an AC or OO is up for discussion.
The set is as follows iirc:
name: Passho Berry
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Bug Buzz
move 3: Fire Blast / Fiery Dance
move 4: Giga Drain
item: Passho Berry
evs: 136 HP / 16 SpA / 248 SpD / 108 Spe
Enough Speed to outrun Jolly Breloom at +0 and Scarf Latios after 2 QDs. Enough special bulk to survive a Scarf Keldeo's Hydro Pump in the rain after 1 QD boost and SR damage 87% of the time (7/8). +2 Giga Drain is a guaranteed OHKO against Keldeo.
248 HP / 56 SpA / 188 SpD / 16 Spe, Timid for guaranteed survival of Scarf keldeo's Hydro Pump in the rain at +1 and after SR damage. +2 Giga Drain isn't a guarantee OHKO on Keldeo, without SR, though
I'm not QC or anything, but I see a problem with Tyranitar's set order. In the current metagame, the set order should be Choice Scarf / Choice Band / Specially Defensive / Lead.
Another problem I see is that offensive Latias lacks 72 EVs in HP, which is required to avoid a 2HKO from Keldeo's Choice Specs boosted Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock.
Those EVs are... wow.
Having max HP and defensive EVs geared toward surviving x move after SR on a quad-SR weak mon is worthless. The speed benchmark is fine. Use 248 (or less, whatever it is make sure it's an odd number) HP, dump the SpD EVs, mix them into defense (for priority and various earthquakes) and special attack.
Passho Volc is a very good set though, I like it a lot. For what it's worth I'm 99% sure kokoloko didn't popularize it lol
Yea, I lost the EV spread to the Passho Volcarona, so I was re-creating it (when I went to my teambuilder it had max Atk / max Spe @ Adamant Nature lol). I have updated the spread in my previous post now. I remember kokoloko saying that it can survive Scarf Kelde's Hydro Pump in the rain at +1 and after SR damage, so I used that as a basis to come up with the spread. Honestly, though, if it's anything less than that, there's no point in running Passho Berry.