Prevailing attitudes regarding OU as being the "Best"

[Obsessed]

Whatever, Trottel. Sie verirrt.

Wenn Sie kann nicht von einem Gegenargument denke, Beleidigung des Gegners! Er vermutlich nicht über Google Translate wissen, so kann ich sie beschimpfen in eine andere Sprache!

Also if you read the rules you are supposed to post in English.

I'm out of here. Obviously no Pokemon is "useless" since every single Pokemon learns a damaging attack. However, in my opinion a Pokemon can be considered useless if multiple Pokemon do it's job better.

 

[Proboscidea]

weedle and caterpie learn bug buzz at level 30

abra can learn psychic and has base 105 SpA with base 95 Spe
feebas...is useless

*Bite. They don't have the wings to Buzz.

Feebas has more than you think. It learns Water moves like Water Pulse, Surf, Waterfall. Not to mention Flail, Endure, Ice Beam, Toxic, Hypnosis, Confuse Ray, Dragonbreath...

@above: German is when I'm frustrated and my way of saying "There's no way to deal with you so just end this." The translator isn't always correct because beschimpfen which means "to get angry" should be at the end at the sentence.

 

[ginganinja]

Luvdisk sucks but its getting off topic anyway.
I think that its hard to suggest that OU pokemon are the 'Best' when you have ubers that ar (obviously) stronger than OU pokemon.

Pokemon become the best soley on the Metagame that supports them. FOr example if you look at Heracross and Cressilia. Cressilia was hailed as a new uber but is now BL due to the rise in popularity with T-tar and Scizor (plus Garchomp went to ubers).

Like it or not Pokemon that are the best become the best when the metagame fits around them. When the metagame sifts, suddenly the "best" pokemon are no longer "the best". Look at Rhyperior, once OU and classed as the best and now he is UU.

Oh and in regards to Proboscidea
Mind telling use what spnida can do really well?
Bse 60 stats accross the board..... thats OU right?
Also the spinda analysis is very funny I like it.

 

[Spenstar]

*Bite. They don't have the wings to Buzz.

Feebas has more than you think. It learns Water moves like Water Pulse, Surf, Waterfall. Not to mention Flail, Endure, Ice Beam, Toxic, Hypnosis, Confuse Ray, Dragonbreath...

But everything outruns and OHKOs them anyway so yeah

 

[connoisseur]

Hey guys, the most useless pokemon is probably unown. It just sucks. Even passing 6 CMs to it is trivial as chances are you have at least 2 resists for its HP type on your team (most good battlers do) and it takes one hit maximum to take out unown.

 

[Spenstar]

Hey guys, the most useless pokemon is probably unown. It just sucks. Even passing 6 CMs to it is trivial as chances are you have at least 2 resists for its HP type on your team (most good battlers do) and it takes one hit maximum to take out unown.

6 CMs and 3 abilities and it could do something...

 

[WarriorPrince]

It's hard to explain.

Most OU Pokemon that drop down to UU are banned to BL. This means that they are too broken for UU, but they don't stand up to the power in OU. Many UU Pokemon are outclassed by OU Pokemon so you can say OU is composed of the "best" Pokemon.

 

[Relictivity]

Hey guys, the most useless pokemon is probably unown. It just sucks. Even passing 6 CMs to it is trivial as chances are you have at least 2 resists for its HP type on your team (most good battlers do) and it takes one hit maximum to take out unown.

I was about to say Magikarp, but then I noticed Bounce :nerd:. Imagine an evil Bouncing Magikarp with... flail (faints).

 

[Baldafor]

There was a thread a while back, some sort of Theorymon thread about which pokemon is the worst based on whether that pokemon can run a single set that another pokemon can't beat.

The loser of all pokemon 1v1 is Ditto, because it is FORCED to take a hit before you every time, and Ditto's base HP when it transforms is the same as it had before, which is pathetic.

OU is the best. Otherwise, people in the competitive community wouldn't use them. I think there is a mentality that some people have that not using the best pokemon makes them unique, or different, something like that. Where in reality, more often than not, it just makes them lose more. I say power to you people, but don't make the balancing decisions for the games please!

 

[Chou Toshio]

No matter where you set it (no matter what "Uber" list you create) there has to be a "Standard Metagame". Even if you banned all the pokes currently Uber, OU and BL, you would simply have the current UU as the standard tier (and it would then be "OU").

OU doesn't mean "these pokemon are the best," as pokemon like Kyogre and Mewtwo obviously say otherwise. OU pokemon are those who have gained popular in what has been determined as the standard tier. As the standard tier (the tier specifically built to be the main platform for competition) it's pretty inevitable it enjoys the highest level of popularity.

Also from what I've come to see, attitudes are not necessarily good about you just because you fit on the standard list or where you are on the list.

For instance, Tentacruel and Empoleon enjoy fairly strong reputations as being very useful pokemon popular amongst skilled players, while Electivire and Ninjask, despite having similar rankings, have a pretty bad reputation.

Pokemon like Clefable, Crobat and Lanturn aren't even OU, but probably enjoy better overall reputations than Electivire and some other lower OUs (certainly by my book).

 

[Spenstar]

I can understand why many people avoid UU play, but Ubers is another story, usually dismissed as strategy-free or avoided because nobody plays it. I said this on the uber forum and I'll say it again here:

WHY?

 

[Shroomisaur]

Am I interpreting the topic of this thread incorrectly, or is this about OU's metagame being considered the best, not the pokemon within it?

Of course the Pokemon in OU are going to be the best, that's why they are used more frequently and wind up in that tier. Would you rather sweep with DD Salamence or DD Tropius? Most people agree and that Pokemon sees more usage, boosting it to the OU tier. However, that doesn't answer why most see OU as being "the best" tier.

Lower tear Pokemon are not necessarily "bad", but are likely in that tier because there are Pokemon that are simply more effective. However, just because the Pokemon in UU/NU aren't the "best", that doesn't mean that the metagame is any less fun, challenging, or "good", just because it's with less-used Pokemon. That's why I think it's a bit erroneous to classify one tier as better than the others, simply because of the pokemon within.

 

[btb]

I had a little debate yesterday on shoddy about whether OU is the best tier and in my opinion even though OU pokemon outclass UU pokemon in most cases and are therefore better than them, UU is a much more enjoyable tier because there are more pokemon that are viable in UU than there are in OU. I say more enjoyable and not better because I don't think one can say a tier is better than another.

There are many more threats to consider when building a team in UU and many more pokemon to choose for your team. Additionally in the current UU metagame there are no broken pokemon (or broken playstyles) like in the past (seriously wtf were Raikou and Cresselia doing in UU?) so there is no centralisation around a certain pokemon / strategy unlike OU.

 

[elchupo]

Am I interpreting the topic of this thread incorrectly, or is this about OU's metagame being considered the best, not the pokemon within it?

Of course the Pokemon in OU are going to be the best, that's why they are used more frequently and wind up in that tier. Would you rather sweep with DD Salamence or DD Tropius? Most people agree and that Pokemon sees more usage, boosting it to the OU tier. However, that doesn't answer why most see OU as being "the best" tier.

Lower tear Pokemon are not necessarily "bad", but are likely in that tier because there are Pokemon that are simply more effective. However, just because the Pokemon in UU/NU aren't the "best", that doesn't mean that the metagame is any less fun, challenging, or "good", just because it's with less-used Pokemon. That's why I think it's a bit erroneous to classify one tier as better than the others, simply because of the pokemon within.

Yeah, but it's also about attitudes regarding Pokemon and metagames that aren't OU, and to what extent these are deemed lesser.

One thing I am suprised hasn't come up is how the the attitudes are appropriated, like in the article from the first post. I see someone mentioned analysis's being biased to an extent, something about Spinda? (bad Pokemon choice there to back that up btw lol). But something has caught my eye, and it's Ludicolo's analysis. Ludicolo is one of my favourite Pokemon, and for some reason it was decided that it should get a revamped analysis.... that only covers OU and Uber. Ludicolo is a UU Pokemon, so why it only has analysis for OU and Uber is beyond me. But it's the kind of attitude I'm talking about.

Another thing I would like to touch upon that I see a lot of in the B&W thread is people calling for Pokemon from the lower tiers to get evolutions, to make them "usable" in OU. I often wonder why this is, since it rarely works anyway...

 

[Spenstar]

Another thing I would like to touch upon that I see a lot of in the B&W thread is people calling for Pokemon from the lower tiers to get evolutions, to make them "usable" in OU. I often wonder why this is, since it rarely works anyway...

It actually did work for a few pokemon. Gallade, Porygon-z, and Electivire are all standards, while Rhyperior should be one, or at least BL.

 

[elchupo]

It actually did work for a few pokemon. Gallade, Porygon-z, and Electivire are all standards, while Rhyperior should be one, or at least BL.

Gallade and Porygon-Z are BL, which is a lot different than OU, Electivire is considered by many a "bad" OU, and will most likely drop, and Rhyperior is firmly UU.

Furthermore, Tangrowth, Lickilicky, Magmortar, Roserade, Ambipom, Yanmega, Mismagius and Honchkrow are all BL or lower. My point is, evolution does not an OU Pokemon make.

 

[Proboscidea]

Gallade and Porygon-Z are BL, which is a lot different than OU, Electivire is considered by many a "bad" OU, and will most likely drop, and Rhyperior is firmly UU.

Furthermore, Tangrowth, Lickilicky, Magmortar, Roserade, Ambipom, Yanmega, Mismagius and Honchkrow are all BL or lower. My point is, evolution does not an OU Pokemon make.

What he means by Gallade and Porygon-Z being in standard is because BL is not an official tier. BL Pokemon are basically only usable in the OU+ matches since there's no such thing as a BL battle. Roserade is an OU Pokemon and I doubt it will drop any time soon. It's just too good. Evolution doesn't have to make a Pokemon OU but it does make a Pokemon better (in battles, not always in looks).

 

[elchupo]

What he means by Gallade and Porygon-Z being in standard is because BL is not an official tier. BL Pokemon are basically only usable in the OU+ matches since there's no such thing as a BL battle. Roserade is an OU Pokemon and I doubt it will drop any time soon. It's just too good. Evolution doesn't have to make a Pokemon OU but it does make a Pokemon better (in battles, not always in looks).

I know, but BL is where Pokemon who have dropped from OU, because they aren't used enough, and subsequently been banned from UU for being too powerful. I was always under the impression that BL Pokemon, at least in this generation, were some of the least used Pokemon because they can only be used in OU+, where they were deemed not good enough in the first place, hence the drop.

 

[JonTheRed]

Now, BL is another matter entirely. Again, the tiers are based on usage; Cresselia dropped into UU because not enough people used it in OU. In UU, however, it was used so much that it had to be ejected from the tier somehow. In this limbo is where BL lies. The Pokemon there aren't bad by any means, it's just that other Pokemon are easier to fit in your team. Crobat eats stall for breakfast with super-fast Taunts and Super Fangs, and makes an amazing counter for just about every Grass-type ever (including most variants of Shaymin, and any Breloom lacking Stone Edge), but it doesn't fit well on a whole lot of teams, hence its usage not being high enough to call it OU. It's way too much for UU to handle, however. BL is to UU as Ubers is to OU, except that analogy isn't fair because now we're comparing Crobat to Arceus.

I...don't remember where I was going with this. >_>

 

[Alan]

Its not that pokemon in the lower tiers are "bad" its just that they are usually outclassed or have a poor typing that doesn't let the succeed in the higher tiers.

Also, many pokemon in the lower tiers who do work in OU generally have a very niche usage. A good example of this is Porygon2. Its primary use is as a Salamence/Gyarados counter due to Trace, and not being Pursuit bait like Gardevior. Outside of that, it has very little to no viability in OU, hence its usage remains low and it is good in NU/UU. Nidoqueen is also a good example because of its access to Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes as well as a wide movepool and strong defenses it can reliably come in and set up Stealth Rocks/T-Spikes take a hit and deal some damage, but its usage is not high enough and it remains NU. (Thank God, NU has some spikers back ;-;)

Nobody is trying to tell you that you cannot use NU/UU pokemon in OU, but you can't use all of them (Spinda, Farfetch'd) and expect them to be an overwhelming force. Generally, a large portion of the pokemon have been tested in OU and either been found to be good or bad one way or another.

 

[Airfoil]

A Pokemon doesn't have to be OU to be a good one. See: Cresselia, Raikou

It really annoys me that people automatically call a Pokemon Pathetic, useless competitively b/c it's not OU, or in some cases not standard. I.e. Things like Banded Heracross and Cresselia are looked down on just b/c, And I once ran Revenge Killer Delibird w/ much success out of boredom, getting criticism as it ripped apart Mence.

Its not that pokemon in the lower tiers are "bad" its just that they are usually outclassed or have a poor typing that doesn't let the succeed in the higher tiers.

Many Pokemon are UU b/c lower speed (Blaziken) or just have another Pokemon that does almost an identical job but has a higher attack/speed/better stats altogether (Altaria, having Mence do everything it can do).

 

[Obsessed]

Many Pokemon are UU b/c lower speed (Blaziken) or just have another Pokemon that does almost an identical job but has a higher attack/speed/better stats altogether (Altaria, having Mence do everything it can do).

Yes, which means they are outclassed.

 

[cantab]

No I haven't. No it doesn't.

There are bad Pokemon. They are essentially useless unless you want to give yourself a handicap.

They are, however, very few, not counting NFEs.

If you don't find playing to win fun then you are on the wrong site.

"Playing to win" does not however stop you having your own style and ideas. Virtually everyone battles to win, but not everyone teambuilds caring only about making the strongest possible team. Many people want to be innovative, original, or simply different. And I don't mean silly gimmicks like trying to set up a Weedle sweep, I mean creating teams that are solid and capable, but not the bog-standard. Stuff like Trick Room, hail stall, Gravity, monoteams, sensible UU for OU teams, and so on.

The loser of all pokemon 1v1 is Ditto, because it is FORCED to take a hit before you every time, and Ditto's base HP when it transforms is the same as it had before, which is pathetic.

Quite a bit has less HP than Ditto though, especially counting NFEs. Against Shuckle Ditto probably gets stalled out, thanks to only 5 PP per move. What about Ditto vs Diglett? Even Ditto vs Dugtrio, I can see that being a speed tie draw
For definite, I think Focus Sash Ditto beats Shedinja.

 

[elchupo]

Now, BL is another matter entirely. Again, the tiers are based on usage; Cresselia dropped into UU because not enough people used it in OU. In UU, however, it was used so much that it had to be ejected from the tier somehow. In this limbo is where BL lies. The Pokemon there aren't bad by any means, it's just that other Pokemon are easier to fit in your team. Crobat eats stall for breakfast with super-fast Taunts and Super Fangs, and makes an amazing counter for just about every Grass-type ever (including most variants of Shaymin, and any Breloom lacking Stone Edge), but it doesn't fit well on a whole lot of teams, hence its usage not being high enough to call it OU. It's way too much for UU to handle, however. BL is to UU as Ubers is to OU, except that analogy isn't fair because now we're comparing Crobat to Arceus.

I...don't remember where I was going with this. >_>

I know that, but the reason for the decrease in usage is that they are not thought of as good anymore, so less people using them= a tier drop.

A Pokemon doesn't have to be OU to be a good one. See: Cresselia, Raikou

It really annoys me that people automatically call a Pokemon Pathetic, useless competitively b/c it's not OU, or in some cases not standard. I.e. Things like Banded Heracross and Cresselia are looked down on just b/c, And I once ran Revenge Killer Delibird w/ much success out of boredom, getting criticism as it ripped apart Mence.



Many Pokemon are UU b/c lower speed (Blaziken) or just have another Pokemon that does almost an identical job but has a higher attack/speed/better stats altogether (Altaria, having Mence do everything it can do).

Technically, Mence only outclasses DD Altaria, as Altaria has Wish, Roost, Heal Bell and Natural Cure, making it a great team supporter.

 

[cantab]

Salamence gets Wish, Dragonite gets Heal Bell, and both gets Roost. Altaria does at least get the three moves together and Natural Cure.