Primal Groudon Benchmarks

Serapis

Losing my way to Victory
#1
I'm making this post both in reply to a question asked by viperGTS in the 'Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer' thread and so that everybody can have easy access to EV combinations relating to what is probably the best Pokemon in VGC history.

Yes, it has to be this big. The art is too awesome to pass up.

Speed Benchmarks
(Pro Tip: When trying to see how fast your Primal Groudon is compared to other things on the field, remember to watch the order in which abilities activate [the fastest Pokemon's ability activates first] since Desolate Land can also be used as a speed check)

85 (0 IV, 0 EVs, neutral nature): The absolute minimum speed possible for Primal Groudon. Useful mainly for Trick Room teams and desperately trying to win the weather war with Priamal Kyogre.

110/111 (0 and 4 EVs respectively): 90 base speed is actually decently fast, and if you have Tailwind as a form of speed control you can consider not running any speed EVs at all. Already, you naturally outspeed Adamant Choice Scarf Landorus-T and speed boosting nature Base 145s like Mega-Sceptile.

112 (12 EVs): If for some reason you have a burning desire to outspeed the base 150 Mega-Aerodactyl (with a speed boosting nature) under Tailwind. You're also creeping 4 speed Base 90s and if you're using anything that lowers the speed of your opponent by one stage (like Icy Wind) you outspeed boosting nature base 100s.

118 (60 EVs): Outspeed Jolly Choice Scarf Landorus-T under Tailwind, if for some reason you're super afraid of it.

123 (100 EVs): Outspeeds neutral nature base 70s.

124 (108 EVs): Creeps things trying to outspeed neutral nature base 70s like Bisharp, outspeeds positive base 60s and Adamant Mega-Tryanitar.

125 (116 EVs): Outspeeds Jolly Regular Tyranitar.

135 (196 EVs): Outspeeds positive base 70s like Breloom.

136 (204 EVs): Outspeeds Jolly Mega-Tyranitar and creeps things trying to outspeed positive base 70s.

140 (236 EVs): Outspeeds boosting nature Smeargle.

142 (252 EVs): Greatest possible speed for Primal Groudon to hit with a neutral nature. Also happens to outspeed max speed Heatran.

143 (156 EVs, boosting nature): Outspeeds all opposing neutral speed nature Primal Groudon and base 90s.

144 (164 EVs, boosting nature): Outspeeds Adamant Landorus-T and boosting nature Mega-Blastoise.

146 (180 EVs, boosting nature): Outspeeds boosting nature base 80s, most notably Mamoswine but also randomly fast Togekiss.

152 (228 EVs, boosting nature): Outspeeds boosting nature Rotom formes and neutral nature Xerneas/Yveltal. Speed ties with neutral nature base 100s.

153 (236 EVs, boosting nature): Outspeeds neutral nature base 100s, most notably Mega-Kangaskhan.

156 (252 EVs, boosting nature): The maximum speed a Primal Groudon can hit. At worst, you speed tie with other opposing Primal Goudon and other base 90s.

Defensive Benchmarks
(Note: really, it's the calcs that matter here. Most of these benchmarks can be achieved with slightly less EVs by investing in the specific defensive stat. Don't treat these EV combinations like they're anything super special; experiment with making your own. This is just to give you an idea of what you can do)

---Starting off with Special Defense calcs

28 HP/4 Special Defense: I feel this is the absolute minimum bulk Primal Groudon should run. No matter what sort of team you're running, 32 EVs are easy enough to spare and by investing them like this you survive Hidden Power Ground (and by extension Grass Knot) from Timid +2 Xerneas 100% of the time. Dazzling Gleam from Timid Xerneas is now also always a 3HKO, although that can be achieved with only 12 HP EVs.

76 HP/4 Special Defense: I also definitely like running at least this much bulk on Primal Groudon, although it doesn't fit quite as well onto super fast sets because the power decrease starts to compound. The EVs make Modest Primal Kyogre's Ice Beam a 3HKO 100%.

140 HP/4 Special Defense: Now we've begun to enter the land of truly bulky Primal Groudon. This spread makes Dazzling Gleam from Modest Xerneas a 3HKO 100% of the time. It also makes Earth Power from Timid Life Orb Palkia a 2HKO.

252 HP/20 Special Defense: Life Orb Modest Palkia's, and more importantly Dialgia's, Earth Power is always a 2HKO.

252 HP/60 Special Defense: This spread begins to cut into your offenses, but it lets you live neutral nature Earth Power from opposing Primal Groudon 100% of the time. Because of this, you are also able to survive Earth Power from Timid Choice Specs Palkia 100% of the time (both Primal Groudon and Palkia have base 150 SpA, while Groudon has STAB Earth Power and Palkia's hypothetical Choice Specs grant the same boost).

252 HP/156 Special Defense: I have really mixed feelings about this spread. It lets you always survive Earth Power from opposing Modest Primal Groudon, however you only have 100 EVs left over so you can find yourself struggling to deal as much damage as you normally could.

---So, that's a lot on the special side. How are we looking on the physical spectrum?

44 HP/4 Defense: This allows you to always take spread Earthquake from Landorus-Therian, baring the crit. By that I mean that if you should happen to run into a weird Adamant Choice Band set you don't need to worry about getting an unfortunate damage roll and losing your Primal Groudon.

108 HP/4 Defense: While not exactly a common situation, this EV combination allows you to always live the single target Earthquake from opposing Adamant Primal Groudon (you survive Jolly naturally without any EV investment). It's also worth nothing that with this EV investment, single target Precipice Blades from Adamant Primal Groudon has a 100% chance to OHKO you, assuming it hits of course.

252 HP/4 Defense: Well, how convenient? This is the exact amount of investment needed to live a single target Precipice Blades from an opposing Primal Groudon with a Jolly/any non Attack boosting nature. Once again, not the most useful thing ever, but it's still nice to know.

252 HP/148 Defense: This is the investment needed to always take Adamant single target Precipice Blades from opposing Primal Groudon. Yeah, it's a lot. On the bright side, Adamant Kangaskhan's Return is also a 3HKO (yes, this second feat can be achieved with only 140 defense EVs, however if you're already investing that much you might as well invest the extra eight).

252 HP/108 Defense (boosting nature): Just gonna throw this out there, but if for some reason you feel like running Impish or Bold Groudon this spread makes Jolly Mega-Kangaskhan Double Edge a 3HKO 100% of the time baring crits.

252 HP/252 Defense (boosting nature): And finally, this. Yes, it takes literally all but 4 of your EVs, and I would never recommend running this set, but you make Adamant Mega-Kangaskhan Double Edge a 3HKO 100% of the time. That's actually really impressive.


Here, have another cool Groudon sprite. This one lets me seperate the top of the page from the note I'm going to leave at the bottom.

I'm not going to include an offensive calcs section for a couple of reasons; chiefly that calcs against opposing Pokemon would probably be unreliable because standard EV spreads are still developing. And, of course, it would be a lot more work when people might not even be interested. If there is interest in the future I might come back and add an offensive section, but whatever. Hope this was helpful, and have a good day!
 
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#2
Oh wow, thank you for the mention! I feel honored, lol.

I'm testing around some different Primal Groudon EV spreads for a PC i'm going to tomorrow, so this will be a huge help. Thank you! Additional sections for other legends might prove to be useful in the future as well, though the speed benchmarks apply to other base 90 ubers already.
 

Jhon

Someday in the Rain
is a Pre-Contributor
#4
112 (12 EVs): If for some reason you have a burning desire to outspeed the base 150 Mega-Aerodactyl (with a speed boosting nature) under Tailwind.
That one is actually relevent if you're using Icy Wind or Electro Web as it allows you to outspeed max base 100s (M-Kang) who have 111 speed at -1.
113 speed would give you Garchomp, Lando-I and Thund-T (both 101s and 102s reduce to 112 at -1 after truncation) as well if you're using Icy Wind, all three being immune to Electro Web makes it useless for that one.
 

Serapis

Losing my way to Victory
#5
Ksh13 Jhon
Opening post updated with the additional information. Also, if there's enough interest I might make a larger benchmark thread where I do the same thing for some of the big legends in the game (I'd also add Mega-Kang to the list, but right now I think you should be running 252/252 Jolly with Double Edge or you're using it wrong/using the wrong mega).
 
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Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
#6
This resource is something I will have to visit a lot. Thanks n_n. Also will you be adding offensive benchmarks for mixed PDon's, it could an extremely valuable resource for knowing when Precipice kills Xerneas or something or even building a mixed PDon.
 
#7
252 HP/60 Special Defense: This spread begins to cut into your offenses, but it lets you live neutral nature Earth Power from opposing Primal Groudon 100% of the time. Because of this, you are also able to survive Earth Power from Timid Choice Specs Palkia 100% of the time (both Primal Groudon and Palkia have base 150 SpA, while Groudon has STAB Earth Power and Palkia's hypothetical Choice Specs grant the same boost).
This one lets you always survive LO Earth Power from neutral nature Mega Ray as well:

252 SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Primal Groudon: 174-205 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not the most useful since Draco still has a 50% chance to OHKO anyway but possibly relevant.


Speaking of MRay:

4 SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 173-204 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This one is pretty convenient and more useful than the 252HP/4Def one imo.
 
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#9
Btw if you're interested:
12 HP / 220 SpDef primal groudon survives timid primal groudon earth power
12 HP / 4 Def still has 93.7% chance to survive adamant banded landorus-t earthquake
Might be useful for optimising offences etc, works well as a trick room spread since you can still have max SpA and 20 EVs left over
 
#10
I don't know if someone has already noted it,but you can survive a 252+ Earth Power from an opposing Primal Groudon with 156 HP / 228 SpDef,conserving more evs than 252 HP / 156 SpDef :)
Hope you appreciate this :)