Process Guide Workshop for Create-A-Pokemon.

[Deck Knight]

"Do as we say, not as we do!"

I have the honor and distinction of being the head writer for the Process Guide. Doug asked me to select a few other writers to help me complete the guide. I have deliberated and, should my hopeful staff want to take on their parts, we can begin working together. If not I will search for a suitable replacement, but I want to publicly recognize who I’m choosing and why.

Writing Team:

Mini-mod definition and duties:
Cooper/Hyra

Cooper started the whole project and was a mini-mod throughout the Syclant process. Since no one went before him he had to sort of make it up as he went along, and being the essential founder he’s the best qualified. His obvious dedication makes him a good pick.

Should Cooper not be available, I will go to Hyra, who has experiences and dedication are of equivalent value, but is currently working on the Revenankh polls and finalization. Either would be perfectly suitable for this section.

Polling:
Deck Knight/Magmortified

Since Polling is the most difficult and likely longest section, I will be take much responsibility for it. I’ve worked with Magmortified elsewhere before and he always has a solid grounding for his thoughts. He’s also eager and willing, and he’s been dedicated to the project, Double Plus.

Playtesting:
Mario with Lasers

Much as I would love having Jibaku, Obi, or a lot of the other Smogon tourney brass work on the ins and outs of playtesting, I want someone who has shown interest and invested their time in the project. Mario with Lasers is a great battler and a longtime member of Smogon. Therefore he is the most qualified to write about everything that goes into playtesting a pokemon. This includes addressing the hoards of theorymon that gets dashed against the stones of the metagame, and what the most efficient way to test is.

Revision:
Deck Knight

We’re mostly still in the testing and revision stage for Syclant right now, so this section, while important, does not yet have enough empirical data on which to make an authoritative listing.

Also, I am going to suggest that instead of mini-mods we now refer to our topic leaders as CAPos. (If you must know, a capo is the head of an organized crime syndicate.) Or we could just go with topic leaders (TL for official abbreviation). Bold vote for what you want :). I don’t like the “mini-mod” because it sounds too negative and smogon has rules against “mini-modding” because of that connotation.

Following will be a rough draft checklist of questions I want our writing team to answer. If they find an important question that they don’t think is being answered, they have the authority to add that question. If they find a question confusing, they have authority to reword it and/or ask for clarification. And of course, if I've listed you as a core member, please feel free to accept or reject.

In order to avoid confusion, I ask that any member who is not a part of the core writing team refrain from posting opinions on any items in the following checklist until the core has posted the rough draft of their section. After the rough drafts are posted, feel free to ask questions that you don’t feel are answered adequately, and it will be the section writer’s responsibility to adjust their information. Do not post if you spot a spelling or grammar error, they will be worked out of the final guide.

Master checklist of topics (rough draft):

Topic Leader definition and duties.

What is a Topic Leader?

What are a Topic Leader’s responsibilities?

What powers/authority does a Topic Leader possess?

How do you become a Topic Leader?

Polling info

General info

What is the purpose of polling?

What are the common polling methods?

Are Topic Leaders allowed to use other methods?

What is the general order of the polls?

In-Depth Poll Descriptions:
• Concept
• Type
• Physical/Special/Mixed
• Offensive/Defensive/Mixed
• Base Stats
• Art
• Movepool
• Sprite

Playtesting

The Test

Why is playtesting important?

What is the playtesting process?

How long is the playtest period?

How does playtesting help assess a pokemon’s usefulness in the CAP metagame?

Analysis

What is the process for creating an analysis?

What features are important in an analysis?

Should analysis occur before, during, or after playtesting?

Revision

Why do we need to revise pokemon?

How should we revise a pokemon?

 

[Cooper]

Sure, I'll work on this leader thing. All I have to do is write what I did the first time around? Sounds easy enough. I encourage Hyra to pitch in with things, and we can just combine what we come up with. I'll also enjoy being a TL, because that's what I call Toon Link.

Excellent avatar, by the way.

 

[Hyra]

I'll look over your stuff and just add my thoughts afterwards, Cooper.

also, why did DeckKnight change his avatar after years of having the same one?

 

[Deck Knight]

I'll look over your stuff and just add my thoughts afterwards, Cooper.

also, why did DeckKnight change his avatar after years of having the same one?

Blame Firebot. The first avatar change was too stupid/random "omg bloody face Asian dude on drums = lame." At least Hello Kitty Darth Vader earns actual comedic irony points instead of being just another idiotic animated gif.

 

[Luck]

Solid group of people but i have one suggestion find a couple more people as alternates.People go away on vacations,get sick,find a new job or school work crashes down hard and then project slow down or stops because they are gone.Find couple of people maybe (3 people)they don't have to be a real part of process right now;but pick couple who are fair active in process and slowly groom them to be replacements and back ups.

 

[Hyra]

We need to resolve an issue about Topic Leaders now.

How are we going to choose the next one? Since Cooper and I are writing this, I assume you are leaving it up to us. But that's not exactly the best way to go about it.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I would like to have a more democratic process than "The current topic leader chooses their successor". That was fine when Cooper picked Hyra, but I think the project has moved beyond that now. With that said, I don't think we should make it a free-for-all.

In the interests of an expedited process, there should be some level of subjectivity involved. I don't think we should go through a full-blown open cattle-call nomination and voting process. I don't think that yields the best leader for this sort of thing anyway.

I suggest a "selection panel" or a "selection committee" that is comprised of several senior members of the community. I think past Topic Leaders should be automatically placed on the panel. Then add several more from people that have been involved in CAP for a long time and appear to have the proper perspective and judgment to weigh in on a decision like this.

Make a stipulation that members of the selection committee cannot be chosen as a Topic Leader. That eliminates conflict-of-interest on the panel.

Have all Topic Leader candidates self-nominate in a nomination thread. They should make their "pitch" in a self-nomination post. Individual community members can express support for a given candidate by posting in that thread. Posts disparaging candidates should be discouraged. The selection panel can take all the input from that thread and hold a vote via PM in order to select the Topic Leader.

I could serve as the non-voting "chairman" of the selection panel. I would organize the nomination and voting threads and PM's, and possibly vote in the case of a tie. My interest is not really to participate as a functional member of the panel, but rather to ensure the panel proceeds to do it's job in a timely and efficient manner. I also could ensure there are no improprieties during the private voting.

A selection process like the one I am describing, would allow the community to have a voice, and yet could be an efficient process as well.

 

[eric the espeon]

However we select the topic leader can we also have a back up or joint one? IMO two would be better, but I dont have time to explain my reasons right now.

and agreeing that we should have some sort of vote.

 

[Hyra]

Doug's idea is great and all, but it still takes time. The majority of people do not want to wait at all in between projects. This has a 3-7 day period in which we have to decide on the new Topic Leader. People lost interest in Revenankh and started clamoring for a new thread the second we got the name decided. They will not appreciate any gap in the transition.

That being said, named succession doesn't work either. Eventually someone will screw it up and then this project tanks. Speaking of that, we need to set up a sort of impeachment process, in case we do get someone as a topic leader who will kill the project.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I am all for making the selection process move as quickly as possible. If someone has a suggestion that can make it move faster, I'm interested to see it.

On that topic, this thread is seven days old, and there has been little to no visible progress in getting any processes decided or even proposed and discussed. One reason I wanted to get this thread moving was to have a Topic Leader selection process decided by the end of Revenankh. Now Revenankh is basically done, and the Topic Leader discussion process is just beginning.

I have proposed a process for selecting a Topic Leader. I really did not want to do that. But, as yet, there have been NO concrete ideas for a selection process. Actually there hasn't been much of anything done here. This thread has just been sitting here for seven days with almost no activity. Maybe seven days seems short to some people, but that is a long time for this project.

I don't like being a hard ass, but if I don't see some progress out of this thread in the very near future, I'm shutting it down and exploring other alternatives.

 

[Time Mage]

Regarding the star of the new pokémon, I say: Don't rush it. Until a new Topic Leader is chosen, and we should take enough time to make a good choice, I don't see what's wrong with having a 1-week period without polls.


Because, not only the new Topic Leader selection rules have to be decided (and then the actual TL), but also the order, style, and duration of the polls. In fact, I consider the latter to be more important than choosing a TL, since the TL should be a director and an organizer, but not someone that decides what comes first, what polling method is used, how much each poll lasts, when a second poll is necessary, etc. All those things should be decided beforehand, and should be the guidelines the TL should follow.

 

[tennisace]

well to go along with the comittee that doug suggested, i propose that it be made up of the past topic leaders and the server mods. this may seem a little biased to some, but im pretty sure that some people that dont fit either of those categories would be picked to be on the comittee or picked to be a topic leader. discuss.

edit: eric has 1100 posts!

 

[Deck Knight]

Here is a rough draft for the Polling Guide, which we may want to use to aid this discussion.

Polling

Order

What steps do we vote on?

Votes are taken on every competitive, flavor, and implementation-necessary aspect of the pokemon. This includes basic things like type and stats, as well as dex entries, art design and spriting.

What is the general sequence of polls?
There is no “required” sequence of polls, however, there are 3 basic phases of polls:

Phase 1: Concept
These polls cover the basics. Type, basic function (physical/special, tank/wall/sweeper), and how we’re going to orient its stats for later. There’s no reason why you couldn’t start with a super-specific function such as Phazer or Rapid Spinner and then move to type, but otherwise type is probably your first priority.

Phase 2: Stats and Art
These polls covers the stats. These should be done only after you have a type and concept in mind. There may be multiple polls in order to decide on a stat spread. Once you have a type and a basic concept, you’ll also want to have an art thread. By doing this, you will likely have an idea of what your pokemon looks like before you get to the movepool phaze,

Phase 3: Movepool
Movepool is one of the most contentious phases. Participants will debate on which moves the pokemon will have, especially focusing on which support or offensive moves make it too powerful given the stats, and which moves fit the art style. A giant bladed fish for instance is not likely to be launching Fire Blast, no matter how much it might help it against Grass types. X-Scissor would probably work though.


Voting Methods

Which polls should be single choice?

Polls where all choices are mutually exclusive should all be single choice. Such polls include whether a pokemon is single or dual type, and what each of those types are. Barring a large number of options, all polls on Base stats should be single choice. A good rule of thumb is that if there are 6 options or less it should be single choice.

Which should be multi-choice?

Multi-choice exists primarily when there are many options, although it’s not “multi” so much as “pick two.”

In multi-choice polls, what is the threshold for a "winning" choice?

The Topic Leader will decide a cut-off point, but it should be no lower than 20%. Special circumstances where results are such that there is one clear winner, and the other polls have around the same support will result in a poll among those secondary options unless the poll is mutually exclusive.

What is bold text voting?

Bold text voting is used when multiple aspects of a pokemon need to be decided among 2 or 3 choices each. Bold voting is most prominent in the movepool phase, where multiple moves get a yes or no vote, or picks among the elemental punches for instance.

How are they counted? Can bold votes be changed?

Bold voting is counted by the Topic Leader alone. Once a bold vote is cast, it can only be changed once and for a specific reason on the part of the voter.

Can the Topic Leader choose any voting method on any poll?

The Topic Leader has complete control over the voting method, but standard polls or bold voting are the easiest to use.

In-Depth Poll Descriptions:

Phase 1:

• Type

Type polls determine the type of pokemon, whether it is single type or dual type, and what those types are.

• Concept

Concept polls determine the basic, broad-range defining characteristics of a pokemon. If you so wanted, you could start your poll be determining whether you wanted a Rapid Spinner or a Phazer. Otherwise your concept polls will be based around whether your pokemon excels in physical, special, or both stats. Base Stats will come later, these are just the basics. It is highly recommended to avoid confusion that you talk about offenses and defenses separately.

• Physical/Special/Mixed

A subset of Concept polls, these address how your pokemon delivers attacks. These deal with the kind of attacks it will deal, not the degree of proficiency.

• Offensive/Defensive/Balanced

A subset of concept polls, these address your pokemon’s specialization. Combined with the above, it will give you a general feel for how your pokemon will battle.

It is recommended that once you have two polls these down, you have a poll specifically on defenses, with options such as High Def/Low SDef, Low Def/High SDef, High Def/High SDef, Low Def/Low SD. As you are going through these polls, start coming up with ideas for base stats to submit in the next phase.

Phase 2:

• Art

The art polls can begin almost immediately after the type polls, since type determines many pokemon characteristics. However, designs completed after the concept polls may fit the pokemon better. Either way the Art polls should be started concurrent with or before the Base Stats polls.

• Ability

Once you have the art done, work on the abilities can begin. Because abilities are very powerful defining characteristics, they can be done before or after Base Stats, but either way the impact on one over the other is significant. Polls will be centered around a pokemon’s initial ability, and then a poll should be conducted on whether there should be a secondary ability.

• Base Stats

Base Stats mark the start of Phase 2, coming after the concept polls. Submissions will be taken over the course of the concept polls, and then voted on here. The first general poll will be on the stat total. Anyone interested in submissions should prepare a spread for each possible option, unless there is a clear and apparent winner.

• Dex

Dex entries add flavor to a pokemon and make it seem like a real creature. Solid dex entries can help explain or open up some movepool options, or can give hints to the nature of a pokemon. For instance, a pokemon prone to extreme fits of anger may inspire Thrash, Outrage, Petal Dance, or some other rampage move.

• Sprite

After the art is chosen, work on spriting should begin immediately. A submission topic should be created, and then the polling topic. Sprites include front, back, and shiny, and the best sprites will also have an awesome pose. Two if you’re feeling up to it.

Once Stats and Art are decided, the project moves on to its final stages.

Phase 3:

• Movepool

Movepool polls delve extensively into movepool. They survey the large list of level-up, eggs, and breeding moves. Debated moves are generally decided by bold voting.

Once the Movepool and sprites are decided, it’s playtesting time.

Attached is a crappy Deck-created Flow-Chart

The areas inside Black boxes do not have a specific order, but must all be completed before moving onto the next poll/phase

 

[DougJustDoug]

Regarding the star of the new pokémon, I say: Don't rush it. Until a new Topic Leader is chosen, and we should take enough time to make a good choice, I don't see what's wrong with having a 1-week period without polls.


Because, not only the new Topic Leader selection rules have to be decided (and then the actual TL), but also the order, style, and duration of the polls. In fact, I consider the latter to be more important than choosing a TL, since the TL should be a director and an organizer, but not someone that decides what comes first, what polling method is used, how much each poll lasts, when a second poll is necessary, etc. All those things should be decided beforehand, and should be the guidelines the TL should follow.

I agree with you on all your points, Time Mage.

I do not think we need to rush into selecting a TL. We can go for a week without polls. That's no big deal. I will have Revenankh implemented on the CAP server soon, and we will open a playtesting thread. There should be quite a bit to do there.

But, if people think "Don't rush it" means sitting around for days with no activity (I know that's not what you meant TM, but others might get the wrong idea)-- then I have a big problem with that. I want to get the process guide moving along immediately. IMO, it's the most important thing in the CAP project right now.

 

[latinoheat]

i really don't think any type of art thread should be started before the base stats are finalised, i think you also need to rethink how you go about this process as each pokemon is taking far too long and as a result alot of interest is being lost.

 

[Deck Knight]

i really don't think any type of art thread should be started before the base stats are finalised, i think you also need to rethink how you go about this process as each pokemon is taking far too long and as a result alot of interest is being lost.

Always the reliable source of optimism and sound judgement.

There are a bajillion pokemon whose base stats have about zero to do with how they look. How the hell does Bastiodon have 138 SD? Why does fat egg Bloss have insane HP/SD but crap everything else. Why does fat Wailord have crap defenses? Dusknoir. Any fairy pokemon.

Seriously, concept and stats might be similar, but Base Stats mean literally nothing compared to concept. You might expect a pokemon with big shieldlike arms to have high defense, but whether its 120, 140, or 160 doesn't really help you. Cloyster and Aggron have the same Base Defense, but somehow a cave-dwelling territorial lizard got better SD than a freaking shellfish.

Furthermore, streamlining the entire process was the entire point behind the process guide. This is a neccesarily complicated process precisely because it is entirely democratic. One of the things I have discussed with Magmortified, Doug, and a few others is poll time limits. Short of concurrent polls and strict 3 or 4 day limits, there's really no way to cut this down to say, less than a month.

 

[latinoheat]

Alot of pokemon concepts match the base stats, and i just thought you would want to avoid all the complaints the mummy Art thread that were received becuase of this reason.

I agree you can't really narrow the time limit down much further for the sake of the design, but when you lose basically 75% of the interest in polls along the way something should really be done.

It might be cluttered but i think the idea of running more then one of these at a time starting at scattered times should be something to consider.

 

[DougJustDoug]

i really don't think any type of art thread should be started before the base stats are finalised, i think you also need to rethink how you go about this process as each pokemon is taking far too long and as a result alot of interest is being lost.

Syclant took 6 weeks to complete. Revenankh is now beginning the 11th week of discussion/polling.

I think that Revenankh has taken way, way too long to finish. I agree that long, drawn out polls just suck all the life out of the project. That's one reason I want to have a defined process. Right now, we don't have a defined process, therefore we can't really say that the process is taking too long.

I think the entire polling process should be reverse-engineered to fit within a total timeframe guideline. IMO, that should be roughly 4-6 weeks.

Most polls take too long. I suggest two days normally, three days maximum -- that should be plenty. There have been very few instances where the day 1 leader did not win the whole poll. The reason to have two or more days of polling is to allow plenty of discussion to flow. Very little discussion happens after the third day of a poll anyway.

Don't put too much stock in the argument that art/sprite threads need tons of time to develop. I'm speaking as an artist here -- it doesn't take that long to get some decent art on the table. If we post a set deadline for submissions at the time the art thread is created -- we should get plenty of viable artworks. There normally is a little dead time at the beginning of an art/sprite thread, then someone posts a decent peice and everyone rushes to compete with it. Look at all the past art and sprite threads, and you will see this to be the case.

But, yes, total time should be a MAJOR concern here. If we want to develop a reasonable number of pokemon, we can't take two months per pokemon. Personally, I'm not interested in making lots of pokemon. Since all of our pokemon are intended to be OU, a single pokemon is a fairly big addition to the metagame. Look how many OU pokemon can really be played -- there aren't many. I think each pokemon we create is somewhat of a "masterpeice" and can take some time to finish. We don't need to "crank 'em out" here.

But, if the process takes too long -- the novelty wears off, enthusiasm fades, and people stop participating.

 

[Time Mage]

I have a problem with Deck Knight's method: It isn't specifying much. It explains many things very well, but in the end, it leaves most, if not all the decisions in the hands of the Topic Leader.

I am strongly in favor of not giving many power to Topic Leaders. TL's should start threads, set the polls, write all already known info in the first post, count the votes of bolded polls, and moderate the debates on the movepool threads. But I think that the order of the different polls, the voting method for each, when a second poll is needed, the time limit of each poll, and other things should be decided beforehand. That not only adds to the transparency of the project, but also saves time.

Also, nothing has been said about the method of choosing which base stats spreads should be included on the polls and which shouldn't. Does any kind of committee picks them? Can anyone submit one?


Finally, I'd like to suggest the bolded preferential method as the MAIN polling method. It has a very big advantage over the other methods, which is never needing a second poll, since you can vote for your favorite option AND for the other options in preference order. It also has other things I consider benefits, like the fact that it discourages people who just click an option and go away: Bolded preferential votes encourage involvement with the project, while still not taking much time (if you think writing 5-10 names one after another and bolding them takes time...). Some may say that this method encourages counter-voting, but it can be heavily discouraged by prohibiting people from posting partial results.

 

[Deck Knight]

I have a problem with Deck Knight's method: It isn't specifying much. It explains many things very well, but in the end, it leaves most, if not all the decisions in the hands of the Topic Leader.

I am strongly in favor of not giving many power to Topic Leaders. TL's should start threads, set the polls, write all already known info in the first post, count the votes of bolded polls, and moderate the debates on the movepool threads. But I think that the order of the different polls, the voting method for each, when a second poll is needed, the time limit of each poll, and other things should be decided beforehand. That not only adds to the transparency of the project, but also saves time.

Also, nothing has been said about the method of choosing which base stats spreads should be included on the polls and which shouldn't. Does any kind of committee picks them? Can anyone submit one?


Finally, I'd like to suggest the bolded preferential method as the MAIN polling method. It has a very big advantage over the other methods, which is never needing a second poll, since you can vote for your favorite option AND for the other options in preference order. It also has other things I consider benefits, like the fact that it discourages people who just click an option and go away: Bolded preferential votes encourage involvement with the project, while still not taking much time (if you think writing 5-10 names one after another and bolding them takes time...). Some may say that this method encourages counter-voting, but it can be heavily discouraged by prohibiting people from posting partial results.

I was trying to focus mostly on the polling aspect of the project, and leave the powers and limitations section up to Cooper/Hyra. I could put something up with day limits I suppose and that would cut down on a lot of the problems associated with bold voting, namely vote changes and differentiation. Although some polls like the Movepool poll do take more than 2 or 3 days just by nature of the fact you're voting on a long list of moves.

That preferential voting poll with the runoffs on the Base Stat Spreads was extremely confusing though. Not only did we have countervoting but the process itself got rather muddled. I want to give our Topic Leaders as much ability as possible to make this project their own, but if I ever see "force rank these nine options" again I'm going to have to smack somebody.

I did mention that ONLY the Topic Leader may post vote tallies, although it would require a lot of mod watching to avoid random posters posting them.

On a random note I'm also thinking of adding in a a paragraph that says each topic will have two parts: A vote on on the current part and a development discussion for the next chosen part, e.g. you would have the vote on Base Stat Spreads and then say the discussion would be solely about Ability.

 

[Dane]

I agree there needs to be more of a streamline process, but the next one needs to start or, as stated, some people might lose interest. Perhaps one of the senior members could start the basic typing thread while a process for determining leaders is done?

It seems Deck Knight has a good process, and if nothing else the beginning is pretty much in stone. Like:

• Type
• Concept. If typing permits, evolution of previous Pokemon or not. Role it will play, etc.
• Etc., etc.

Since the basic polls could/will take a few days anyway, why not get those going while this is being discussed?

 

[User 12783]

I agree with Dane, instead of consuming time and losing devotees why not start the basics of the other pokemon? While this is going on all you can discuss the process which should be streamline

 

[tennisace]

i also agree with dane, and since hyra already nominated him to be the next TL, he should at least be the interim one until we figure out how we're going to choose them.

 

[Dane]

If that's fine with the veterans I can, but don't want to step on any toes if one of them want to get the early stages started.

 

[latinoheat]

hyra was in charge of selecting the next mini mod and he selected you so why not.