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Discussion in 'CAP Policy Review' started by Deck Knight, Mar 23, 2008.
I thought this would work as well, but this current project shows it doesn't. There definitely needs to be a concept thread before typing.
What if we do typing then a concept discussion+poll? The problem with this currant one is we had a concept (Kingdra of the sun was what most people wanted, a few wanted auto-sun) but people voted for a stat spread that did not fit it, I think this was mostly because there were 2 well known names attached to the spread more than anything.
I'm debating back and forth on this. There is certainly a lot of energy in the community around discussing possible future concepts. Right now in the "Weather Effects" thread, it has mutated into a discussion over the concept of Rapid Spin. Normally, I would just close the thread or remind people to get on-topic. The problem is -- there is not a topic for discussing that stuff. So, from that perspective, creating a dedicated "Future Concepts Discussion" thread would provide an outlet for all that discussion.
But, on the other hand, one of the things I DON'T like about all the Weather and Rapid Spin discussion is that it really distracts the community from the Fire/Grass pokemon we are building. Many people on the project are currently a bit confused as to what the heck is going on. I've had a few people ask me, "So, are we done with the Fire/Grass pokemon?" They assumed that we must have moved on, based on all the discussion about other concepts.
I think we have a large enough community to handle more than one thing at a time. But, we need to manage it properly.
I'm wary of creating a wide-open topic like "Concepts Discussion". Yes, it would provide an outlet for some discussion, but it will also be a magnet for every random post imaginable. It could easily be a huge distraction. If we only open the floodgates for a few days at the start of every project, that's not too bad. After a bunch ideas are presented and voted, then we close the "random theorymon ideas" thread, and get down to the practical business of constructing an actual pokemon. If we have an evergreen theorymon thread, then it makes it harder to drop the blue-sky talk and focus on the task at hand.
At this point, I'm a little torn as to whether to do this or not.
New strategical concepts for a Pokemon are easily the biggest "post everything you can" magnets ever (though the movepool one is coming close). "Opening the floodgates" is really the appropiate term. It sounds like a huge shitfest to moderate, read and navigate when only doing it once per CAP, so a whole thread of people closing their eyes and just babbling forth about their own ideas (let's admit it, everyone thinks their own ideas are the best) does not sound like a very fruitful discussion.
I pondered about making such a thread too, but we will have plenty of time to discuss concepts like that for every CAP. Discussing those during processes is just too distracting.
If we do have a concept discussion thread we should at least have it after the typing is chosen to limit the possible options for discussion, if we do concept first a "free for all" like Mekkah described would ensue.
I'm not questioning whether we should have a concept thread first or second on the project. I'm debating whether to have an always-open Concept Discussion thread. That's my current dilemma. I'm pretty sure I don't want to allow it. If others disagree, I suggest you speak up.
I'd prefer to create a short concept thread at or near the beginning of every CAP project. Whether we do it before or after the typing poll is not a major concern of mine. I'd prefer to do it before. Therefore EVERYTHING that we decide after that, needs to be in line with the general concept. Yes, the concept discussion will be a rat's nest of ideas, but it will only last for a few days, and everyone will be able to get their suggestions on the table before anything else has been decided. I think that would be good for the project.
If American Idol can do open cattle-call auditions -- we can do open cattle-call concept submissions....
I completely agree with you. The only time concepts for future Pokemon should be discussed should be before one starts, and possibly in specific threads such as the weather one we have going on currently.
I'd rather have it before the typing poll, but I think it would work easier after it, just because it would become more focused. Of course, the concept thread could be open while the next TL is being chosen, then the new TL finds the best reasoned concepts (not necessarily best overall, just ones with the best reasoning as to why they should be made/upgraded/etc), and has that as their first official poll.
Just hope we don't end up with a William Hung.
On order, I think art can possibly wait.
Concept -> Type -> Stats (all of them lol) -> Movepool -> Art
I've thought about it, and it's not that hard to justify anything beyond Punching a Kicking moves in Pokemon. I mean, for use to potentially add Powders to Woodman, Eleagune showed Spores coming out of the fire pits. it would be better if art had a lot more time to evolve so that it is really amazing and fits incredibly well with the design.
The only thing I don't like about that order is that it rushes spriting. Alternative order is:
Concept -> Type -> Art -> Stats -> Movepool.
In this, we try to match the stats to the art and the art to the concept. Just a try at something different.
Those are both fantastic, Hyra -- I wholeheartedly agree with you.
The trouble is picking the one I want, they both have their pros and cons (though I am leaning to the art last).
...excepting that I, personally, would like to go back and use Doug's Jack-o-Lantern picture as a concept. The concept poll should have the power to override any other poll.
The concept poll will indeed override every poll. For example, if we were to come up with the idea of a Bulky Special sweeper with the idea of using Recharge moves effectivly, we'd have to design the Ability, Typing, Art and Base Stats around that.
OK, guys, I think something has to be done about the movepool thread. Right now it's the worst organized part of the process, in my opinion.
I propose to limit it severely, just to be able to focus on something, instead of discusing everything and nothing, at the same time:
- First, no posting your personal complete movepool. That's irrelevant. Also, is it really important to know if it's a level up move, or a TM? As far I'm concerned, a pokémon can have any combination of those. The only concern should be egg moves, and even that should be an afterthought, to limit certain combinations.
- Second, limit at first the discussion to the competitive-worthy moves. No talk about flavor moves AT ALL. Discuss what's convenient and what's not, what can be broken and what not... But don't argue that the pokémon should learn growl because it fits.
- Third, organize the proposals. I suggest the following: everyone can propose up to 5 moves they think the pokémon should have, and up to 5 that it shouldn't have. With all the feedback in a more organized manner, it will be easier to start getting a grasp of the movepool. Back up your opinion, also, this isn't a poll, but a way to make the Topic Leader's life easier and focus the discussion.
- Fourth, debate the controversial moves, now in the form of a poll, like what we did with Revenankh recovery and elemental punches.
- Finally, arrange the moves as level up, TM and egg moves, and add as many flavor and random moves as it is necessary to have a complete movepool.
Also, a note on the "competitive movepool": That's the usable part of the movepool in competition, and should have a reasonable size, usually. My guess is that it should have, on average, to have a number of moves equal to the average number of moves mentioned in the analysis, whether they are mentioned in the actual movesets or in the "other options" section. Those are pretty much the only moves worth considering for a competitive standpoint, so getting what's the maximum, minimum, and average number of mentioned moves in the, say, top 20-30 pokémon should give us an idea of the size the "competitive movepool" should have.
You know, reading over this I must say that I like Hyra's suggestions, and Eric the Espeon is reiterating a point I have made in the art thread. I think that it really would be important to leave names off of stat spreads and art/sprite submissions becuase of the reputation factor.
I also think that we should limit some of the stat spread explanations, because I have actually talked to people who voted for "the longest explanations" because it "must be the best"
I think that Time Mage is addressing a problem that's quite worthy of addressing.
Yeah, I saw from the movepool thread of the Fire/Grass Pokemon that many people were posting their own movepool. But this was done because the OP practically told us to do so.
I think we need a guide for people to know how to create a Pokemon's movepool. People tend to commit these mistakes when writing a movepool for a Pokemon:
1) It contains way too many level-up moves. Most Pokemon have 12 or 13 moves in their level-up list.
2) People tend to put too many attacking moves in the level-up list, and ignore moves like 'Tackle', 'Mud Slap', 'Cotton Spore', etc. These moves are important!
3) People tend to forget moves like 'Natural Gift', 'Giga Impact', 'Captivate', etc. from the TM moves. This shouldn't be done.
4) People think that you shouldn't repeat moves in the level-up list and/or the egg moves if they are also TM moves. This is wrong.
5) Again, the egg moves usually contain only moves that the Pokemon is likely to be able to use, and not moves like 'Nature Power', 'Sand-attack', etc. And again, this is not what usually happens in the normal Pokemon.
I'll say straight away that the most important moves in a Pokemon's movepool are usually TMs, and that the level-up list and several of the egg moves usually suck.
My point is that we need a standard way of how to write a Pokemon's movepool. I can write this guide for you if you want.
I agree that the movepool part is the worst and needs fixing but I have a different proposal, we separate it into three parts
1. What TM/HMs it gets.
Let the TL (or someone appointed by the TL) write up a proposed list of what TM/HMs it should get, let people comment on it for a day or so, and have the TL change the learn list according to peoples suggestions (have a look in the currant thread to see how I have done it).
The most disputed moves are polled by Bold text voting in the same way the Punches were on Revenankh.
2. What Lv. up moves it gets.
People discuss the possible moves, the TL draws up a list of the most popular 10, Bold text vote (with each person being allowed 3 YES votes and 2 NO votes) to find the most popular 3-4, flavour moves will also be discussed, they will then be organized (by the TL or someone they select).
3. What other moves it gets, Move Tutor, Egg, other.
People discuss possible moves, the TL draws up a list of those with support and they are all voted on by bold text voting (so you say yes or no for each move).
Splitting it into 3 will help to ease the pressure and make it easier to keep the discussions on track.
We could have all 3 running at the same time in different threads.
And one thing i am adamant about is that the flavour must be kept as an important part of the discussions, and the moves must fit with the art.
Edit: X-Act posted while I was writing, I TOTALLY agree with everything he said.
What do you think of my guide X-Act?
Competitive first, flavor later for me, so I'm leaning closer to Time Mage's approach. I say make two parts (competitive and flavor), split each into submittal and voting, and then let maybe wrap some things up.
1. Competitive moves
This can be split into Attack, Stat Up/Down, Recovery and Misc in my opinion. Topic leader makes a huge list of obvious ones, people discuss which are controversial, and then a series of bold y/n polls is done to see what it should and should not get.
From there, it's very easy to divide them into impossible combinations (Egg Groups) and TM/HM moves.
2. Flavor + level-up
Give it 12-13 level-up moves, with one to three being competitive and the rest being sucky. Those should not need a lot of arguing.
Hey, flavor is important, but it shouldn't polarize the discussion at first. First, we talk about what it needs to be balanced competitively. Of course, things like, for example, not giving a pokémon made entirely of flames Ice Beam is perfectly OK, and not giving Thunder Punch to a serpent-like pokémon is OK too, so the typing and the design has to be taken into account somewhat. But barring the most obvious limitations, we should focus the discussion AT FIRST on the competitive aspect. Then, we can fill the movepool with flavor moves and useless moves, and organize the movepool in the level up, TM and egg categories. If both aspects (the competitive and the flavor aspect) don't interfere each one with the other, the process will be smoother, in my opinion.
Also, what do you think about trying to define an average size of the "competitive" or "usable" movepool? That way we will have a reference to not give it too little or too much useful moves, in comparison with the OU pokémon.
Well, to be honest, not entirely.
Level-up moves don't usually contain 2 or 3 garbage moves. It usually is the reverse: practically all garbage except for 2 or 3 moves.
Consider Garchomp's level-up moves, for example:
- Fire Fang
- Dragon Rage
7. Dragon Rage
15. Take Down
19. Sand Tomb
33. Dragon Claw
55. Dragon Rush
Practically all garbage, except Fire Fang, Crunch and maybe Dragon Rush. (Dragon Claw is redundant as it is also a TM.)
Note also how Sand-attack, Dragon Rage and Sandstorm are listed twice, and that the number of level-up moves (from level 3 onwards) is only 10. Usually this number is about 12 or 13, but Garchomp's is even less. These are the things that we need to do in our level-up moves.
Now look at its egg moves:
Practically all garbage once again, except for Outrage. Note also that Sand Tomb is an egg move despite the fact that it learns it as a level-up move.
This fully illustrates my point: that the TM list is what constitutes a Pokemon's 90% of its usable movepool, and NOT its level-up or egg moves.
- Fire Fang
- Dragon Rage
7. Dragon Rage
15. Take Down
19. Sand Tomb
33. Dragon Claw
55. Dragon Rush
Ok X-Act, changing.
It's all about the example.
Among, for example, Charizard's egg moves, you see:
Belly Drum, Outrage, Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Crunch, Dragon Rush, Flare Blitz, Rock Slide, and Ancient Power
Not all pokemon have crap egg move lists. It could just be that Garchomp babies are slightly retarded.
The current movepool thread is a total mess. The Movepool section of the project needs a total process revamp. I'm glad Time Mage brought this up.
Based on the suggestions in the past few posts, I'd like to propose the following process for determining the movepool:
Movepool discussion and voting will be divided into three phases
Competitive Attack Moves
Competitive Defense and Support Moves
The TL posts an initial Attack movepool in the OP of a discussion thread. People post regarding necessary additions and removals. No full moveset posts are allowed.
At the conclusion of the Attack discussion, the TL will open an Attack voting poll to vote on controversial changes to the Attack movepool.
At the same time the Attack voting thread is opened, the Defense and Support movepool discussion thread will be opened.
At the conclusion of the Defense and Support movepool discussion, the TL opens a Defense and Support voting poll to vote on controversial changes to the Defense and Support movepool.
Based on participation in the previous movepool threads, the TL will select several members to present a complete movepool submission. Since all the competitive moves will have been decided, the movepool submissions will merely add "flavor" moves to round out the movepool.
A guide should be written to describe the characteristics of an appropriate movepool. X-Act's guide is an excellent start. If anyone attempts to include a competitive move, not agreed in the previous polls, it will be the TL's responsibility to see that the submitter removes them from the full movepool submission.
The movepool submissions will be voted on by the community. No alterations, edits, or conditional votes will be accepted. By the time the final movepool is polled, all competitive aspects should have been decided. Therefore, the final movepool is really a vote of individual preference on what best fits the flavor of the pokemon.
Yes we should handle the movepool that way, Doug. I have seen the polls and some of the recent ones are an outrage. People are flaming each other because they just can't see the other person's perspective. This might stop now since Aki was the central organism of chaos (flaming), and is now banned. We should have outlines on every thing we poll on, that might be controversial. An example being the Movepool Poll going on right now! There has to order in something such as an election or vote!
There are exceptions, but they are few and far between. Charizard is the proverbial exception that proves the rule.
Then again, it's not like our pokemon have to follow "the rule." It's just something that has been observed, and in fact there are cases where pokemon bypass them without becoming broken or ridiculous-there are precedents like Charizard.
If putting good egg moves into a pokemon's move pool makes a good pokemon, we shouldn't let something as trivial as some general trend stop us.