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Process Guide Workshop for Create-A-Pokemon.
- Thread starter Deck Knight
- Start date
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Edit: Okay...so I gave up too soon when it still haven't been decided on who's Topic Leader yet but if Dane wins it, I wouldn't be hurt. Still liked Dane's idea a bit.
I think starting part three is rushing things. We should focus in how to decide a new Topic Leader and which guidelines should the process follow, rather than just starting a new project just because some people can't wait.
The whole point of putting everything on a new sub-forum was to make the process better and more organized.
The whole point of putting everything on a new sub-forum was to make the process better and more organized.
Woah no need to rush to part III already, Syclant dex entry number 2 still contradicts dex entry number 3.
We're not starting a new project until some of this process is firmed up. At a minimum, we need to figure out a more reasonable way of selecting a TL. I have suggested a process. There has been little discussion about it. Nor, have I seen alternative proposals.
I think Dane is a great candidate, and I like all the reasons Hyra suggested him. But, we aren't leaping into another project like this.
I think Dane is a great candidate, and I like all the reasons Hyra suggested him. But, we aren't leaping into another project like this.
For the process, I like most of what Deck Knight laid out. Here's the slight adjustments I'd make, plus a time table (not taking into account any "Part a" or "Part b" type polls, etc):
Phase I: 11 Days + Spillover
This gives an average time of 33 days, plus spillover for close polls, per Pokemon.
Phase I: 11 Days + Spillover
- Main Type (3 Days)
- Secondary Type (2 Days)
- Style (Offensive/Defensive/Mixed) (3 Days)
- Build (Physical/Special/Mixed) (3 Days)
- Begin Art Submission Thread
- Base Stat Total (3 Days) (Include submissions of overall spreads and their reasonings for next poll)
- Overall Stat Spread (2 Days)
- Art Selection (3 Days)
- Begin Sprite Submission Thread
- Main Ability Selection (3 Days)
- Secondary Ability Selection (2 Days)
- Movepool Discussion Thread (3 Days)
- Movepool Specifics (2 Days, Polling for specifics such as the elemental punches and WoW on Revenankh)
- Begin Pokedex Entry Submission Thread (Name of Pokemon submissions here as well)
- Name Poll (2 Days)
- Begin Analysis Thread
- Pokedex Entry Poll (2 Days)
- Sprite Poll Thread (2 Days)
- Etc (Pre-Evolutions, Height, Weight)
- Complete
This gives an average time of 33 days, plus spillover for close polls, per Pokemon.
Doug, who would be on this "sectional panel"?
Dane~ Is that what Deck Knight said? (minus those slight adjustment)
Dane~ Is that what Deck Knight said? (minus those slight adjustment)
For the most part. I moved a few things around and added a time table. Only things I think I outright added were things that are obvious, but not included in Deck Knight's outline (name, height, weight).
The main changes I made were:
The main changes I made were:
- Putting style before build (I figure offensive/defensive/balanced is more important to a Pokemon than physical/special/mixed)
- Stats before both Art and Ability
- Movepool immediately after Ability
- Timetable
Okay..well for the most part, the way you listed the process look okay with me. The only problem I have is Art submittion before base stats since that alway was a problem point.
I figured you would already know the basis of the stats (offense/defense/balanced, physical/special/mixed) by the time you started submitting art.
The problem with waiting until after the specific stat spread to do art is you add a week or so to the process, possibly more. However many days for the art submissions, and then 3 days for the actual poll (art being so important deserves 3 days).
And you can't really go on to any step after that until you have the art done. Ability, moves, dex entries, name, etc are all influenced very heavily by the art.
*edit* Oh, and for the typing, I like the way Hyra did it. Remove the types used for the last Pokemon (in this case, Ghost and Fighting), Flying, Normal, Dragon, and Water. Make them available as secondary types if need be, but not primary. The only problem here is that 11 options are left with 10 vote slots, so it'd likely need to be done via Bold voting, at least for the first go.
The problem with waiting until after the specific stat spread to do art is you add a week or so to the process, possibly more. However many days for the art submissions, and then 3 days for the actual poll (art being so important deserves 3 days).
And you can't really go on to any step after that until you have the art done. Ability, moves, dex entries, name, etc are all influenced very heavily by the art.
*edit* Oh, and for the typing, I like the way Hyra did it. Remove the types used for the last Pokemon (in this case, Ghost and Fighting), Flying, Normal, Dragon, and Water. Make them available as secondary types if need be, but not primary. The only problem here is that 11 options are left with 10 vote slots, so it'd likely need to be done via Bold voting, at least for the first go.
And that's where the conflict come in. Since the appearance of a pokemon, ability, moves, dex entries, name, etc are heavily tied with one another, it's difficult to decide on either aspect of the project is more important, thus made to go first. Personally both way of going at it have their problems
So basically it comes down to whether to add a week in for art (between stats and ability), or force art to be based on Pokemon Concept alone.
- 33 Days + Spillover, art based on Concept
- 40 Days + Spillover, art based on Stats
Deck Knight chooses to steal this and edit in parts, specifically making Movepool polls in Phase III.
Well.....yeah, pretty much. It's basically comes down to force art to fit the stats or force stats to fit with the art, like what you said.
Personally I think we could afford one CAP project to go with the "force stats to fit with the artwork" for once.
I think we can get away with this. As long as one does indeed force the other (instead of concurrent and unrelated) I don't think it matters which is first.
Experience may say otherwise, but, for now, it should be good enough.
Depends, and would have to ask the artists. Is 3 days enough time to do the art submission thread? Basically doing the step like this:
This way, the stat total is already known, the artists would have 3 days to get their submissions in during the stat total thread, then art is chosen. From there, art can be used to determine overall stats, and everything after.
- Begin Art Submission Thread
- Base Stat Total (3 Days) (Include submissions of overall spreads and their reasonings for next poll)
- Art Selection (3 Days)
- Overall Stat Spread (2 Days)
This way, the stat total is already known, the artists would have 3 days to get their submissions in during the stat total thread, then art is chosen. From there, art can be used to determine overall stats, and everything after.
It's "Selection Panel", but I know what you mean.
I'd prefer to see who nominates themselves for Topic Leader, before choosing a selection panel -- since, panelists will not be able to run for TL. I'd have Cooper and Hyra for sure. I'd probably ask them to name some folks that they think would be good. I also have some ideas of people that I think are active, reasonable, and respected.
Unlike tennisace suggested, I would not automatically include server mods. I really think that leadership on the server is different than leadership here in the forum. We have people that have participated heavily in the CAP Project, that never visit the server. We also have server mods that are relatively new to the CAP project. I do think all the server mods have good judgment, and it is a requirement that all server mods must be involved in the CAP project. I would be surprised if none of the server mods were on the panel, since some of the most active participants on this project are server mods. But, I don't think all server mods should be automatically named to the selection panel.
To me, the criteria for the selection panel should be:
- A long history of involvement with the CAP project
- Active participation
- A history of advocating opinions that are representative of the community as a whole
- Respected by others on the project
No way that is long enough. I know I advocated shortening the art submission period, but that's not enough time at all.
I know all the problems it causes, but we have to start the art submission thread as soon as type is determined. As other concept polls unfold, the artists make new submissions and alter existing ones. It has a way of working out OK. But, it's important to start getting concepts on paper as soon as we know the type. Artists get inspiration from each others designs, so it helps to see *something* very early on. If we start the art submission thread right after the typing, that gives the artists a couple of weeks. That should be enough, I think. Anything less than that will really compromise the art quality.
Personally I would try out for Topic Leader and/or Panelist myself, though more TP than Panelist. I think I fit most of the criteria for either TP/Panelist but if you need like an essay on how I make a decent, then I'll can do that though I do suck as essays D:
That's like what I would have done for the Art/Stat thing. 3 day for art submissions seem reasonable if the artist make a decent sketch instead of trying to make the final draft like the world would end if the final version of it isn't finished (you all know what I'm talking about). If it's not enough then a week of two could help.
Thinking about it, I was being a bit naive, and I go back on my previous statement.
I agree with Doug on the art. I know how long it takes to make a piece I am truly satisfied with, and all the artists will need plenty of time to come up with ideas.
I think starting the art early will also have the side effect of molding what the community wants. If they have concrete examples they can latch onto, people may have a more clear idea of what they expect the pokemon to do. As a sort of countereffect, the subsequent polls will push the artists to refine their concepts so they look more like the community decisions. This would tend to bring everyone into agreement on a few clear ideas instead of the nebulous misunderstanding we typically get.
It might also be possible for voters who are not artistic to make suggestions for art, and the artists might pick these up at their discretion. I, personally, would be willing to do this.
Even if we don't move the art earlier in the list, we must give the artists more time.
I agree with Doug on the art. I know how long it takes to make a piece I am truly satisfied with, and all the artists will need plenty of time to come up with ideas.
I think starting the art early will also have the side effect of molding what the community wants. If they have concrete examples they can latch onto, people may have a more clear idea of what they expect the pokemon to do. As a sort of countereffect, the subsequent polls will push the artists to refine their concepts so they look more like the community decisions. This would tend to bring everyone into agreement on a few clear ideas instead of the nebulous misunderstanding we typically get.
It might also be possible for voters who are not artistic to make suggestions for art, and the artists might pick these up at their discretion. I, personally, would be willing to do this.
Even if we don't move the art earlier in the list, we must give the artists more time.
But, why? I provided a specific reason that makes this method better, and that's the fact that a second poll will never be necessary. I think it's a HUGE advantage over the other polling methods. Not only saves a lot of time (1-2 days for every extra poll, that adds quickly), but it saves us from choosing some arbitrary % at which it isn't no longer necessary to make a second poll. The less arbitrary decisions, the better.
Also, I don't know what's wrong with forcing people to rank 5-10 options. If you are concerned about the ego of the proposers of those options, well, tough luck, it is inevitable, some things are liked more than others, and you can't do anything about it. Getting a pitiful 1% in a normal poll is equally as ""bad"".
And, if you think the process can get "muddled", that's because it isn't done well. Enforce a set of rules, and make them clear, that's all the necessary things. This are the rules I'd use with this polling method:
- You have to give each option a position, from 1 to (number of options). You have to rank them all, or the vote will not be counted.
- The option that has less points at the end is the winner.
- You have to bold your options. A non-bolded vote will be ignored, no exceptions.
- You can only edit your vote until one day before the poll ends, to prevent counter-voting. All votes last edited after that threshold will be ignored.
- Only Topic Leaders can post vote tallies. If anyone posts a vote tally before the time for the poll expires, he will be disqualified FOR THE REMINDING POLLS OF THE PROJECT.
With those rules, I don't know how the process can go wrong.
That's a great idea, I agree. Although it's pretty much implicit, it will help to put it clear in the guidelines.
I like this order. It can and should be tweaked when we have more experience with it, but it is a good order.
However, I think that the first thread of all should be one called "Role" or "purpose" or "Goal", or something like that. Before type, before, style, build, stats, etc, we should get a pretty good idea on WHAT we want to do. In the previous parts, the defining characteristic has been decided somewhere in the middle (Syclant as a mixed attacker in the BST polls, and Revenankh as an ideal Bulk-Upper after futuresuperstar's speech in his BST submission). If we sit down first and discuss what kind of pokémon we would like: A good batton passer, maybe? A Garchomp counter, perhaps? A rapid spinner? The ultimate spiker? A cleric? A staller? There are endless possibilities we could explore, and I think it's more interesting to have an idea of what we want to do before actually starting the process, and find that we can't do this thing or the other because something we chose before.
Also, I haven't seen anyone suggest the method we should use to determine which BST submissions are used in the poll and which aren't. Either the TL decides it (being proposed by the Selection Panel should give him/her enough credibility), or there is another group in charge of deciding this. I propose a mixed approach, in fact: a committee (so many double letters in one words, stupid English... ¬_¬) formed by the TL, a member of the Selection Panel, and the one whose BST submission won last time decides which BST submissions enter the poll. The reason behind choosing the last one is to prevent the same entrant to win twice in a row, but at the same time give him/her the right to influence the BST selection.
Oh, and even if it's implicit in this post, I'll make it clear: I agree with Doug's proposed method for choosing the Topic Leader.
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