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Process Guide Workshop for Create-A-Pokemon.

Discussion in 'CAP Policy Review' started by Deck Knight, Mar 23, 2008.

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  1. Dane

    Dane

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    But there's no need to handicap ourselves, trying to make another OU Pokemon with lower than normal BST. There's no tactical advantage to lower BST than higher. Imagine if Breloom was BST 500. Just put those 40 extra stats into SpA. Doesn't change him too much, but makes him heavier BST-wise.

    Easier enough to just distribute the stats and keep 500 or 510 as the lowest BST.
  2. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    But anything can be OU if given the right typing, ability, or movepool. Higher BST just means more room to distribute numbers which to be fair, is one of the many reasons why I like making BST of around 530 to 600. To also be fair, I'm mostly agruing with you about it because of Latinheat's comment and the mindset of UU/BL-ist.
  3. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    Do we really need to give it an standard naming sequence, or can we keep trying to abuse mini-mod creativity?

    If not:

    Project Three. Current Sector: Poll One.

    =D
  4. chronostrike

    chronostrike

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    OU under 500:
    Dugtrio - 120 speed and arena trap (BST 405!)
    Ninjask - agilipass essentially for free
    Breloom - spore
    Forretress - 8th highest base defense in game with good typing, spike, and spin
    Skarmory - 8th highest base defense in game with good typing, spike, and roar
    Spiritomb - good in both defenses and essentially best possible typing. Only 15 shy of 500 anyway
    Weezing - only 10 shy of 500
    Abomasnow - only 5 shy of 500

    I don't want to try to create another Dugtrio or Ninjask because an ability that powerful is too volatile to mess with. Spore is just really specific. I don't want to create another Forretress, Skarmory, or Spiritomb either because it's just slap high def on a great type and call it a day. Weezing and Abomasnow don't really count.

    We could make OU pokemon at lower than 500 BST, but it's not that useful to us, and 500 is a fair cutoff.

    I think it is important to note that 40 BL and 22 UU pokemon have a BST of 500 or higher
    -----
    To solve the countervote stuff, we could open a Gmail account speciffically for the CAP project and have everyone vote by sending stuff there. It would keep the votes secret while not flooding the PM box.
  5. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    An Gmail account for the BST poll and/or any poll would be nice.
  6. Admiral_Stalfos19

    Admiral_Stalfos19

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    Spiritomb, Weezing and Abomosnow are BL, according to this site anyway, http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/24412/t1099090-neoseeker-diamond-pearl-tier-list-2008/
  7. Time Mage

    Time Mage

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    Multi-quote, I love you.

    Huh? I really don't get what you mean.

    Hm, I don't agree with this. First, it would be quite difficult to shut down the server for 4 days just to make a private test. second, a normal testing of < 1 week is totally insufficient, you need much more time to see the novelty fade off and see new sets appear, as well as the development of counters for it. It takes time, and we are not in a hurry.

    I agree with the rest of the post, though.

    Now that you have presented the three options clearly, I'm also inclined towards the "TL selects the people who submit BST spreads".

    What about the idea Deck Knight suggested? That's a middle approach that I see working.

    For now, I think leaving Dragon out is a reasonable decision. Once we have more experience with the creation process, we could include it in the main poll.

    You mean, first, the TL select a few people to submit BST, then, they make those BSTs, or the contrary, that is, people present their BSTs, and the TL select a few to enter the poll?

    No complaint here. Are you going to select the Selection Panel members first, or are you going to first ask for who wants to be TL, to avoid picking those for the Selection Panel?

    Pokémon #N, part M: (description).

    This is the idea I was referring to before. I think it's a good one.

    Yeah, pretty stupid mistake I committed there, dammit.

    The bolded part is the key. You can artificially raise a pokémon BST just by adding some points to crappy and meaningless stats, and make it look more powerful, BST-wise, while not rally changing anything. Breloom and Heracross are perfect examples of this.

    So, I also support making the BSTs in the 500-600 range. Starting from 540, there should be only the 555, if we want another Arcanine or Syclant, 580, if we want a trio member, or 600.
  8. Aki

    Aki

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    Playtesting can take the theory out of theorymon, therefore making an actual impression of the "Real" Tier of the CAP.
  9. Luck

    Luck

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    Leaving dragon type out is a bad idea.The Dragon type has ability to save couple of types from crippling weakness.For example if the fire type was made the choice in first part of the type poll.Then dragon type should be option in the second because it one of types will help fire escape the weakness make fire sucks in competitive play.

    Then it becomes the job of the Minimod(aka the lead designer) to make sure pokemon become out balance and not overpowered.Hydra did this when he stop the ghost type from getting levitate as option or getting all elemental punches.Yes they are couple of types on the watch closely list aka normal,psychic,dragon and dark but other than if type is already an establish type combination or was used in last poll it should be an option

    I don't what is maybe Garchomp,Dragonite and Salamence has you guys shooked in to thinking that dragon type is some uber type but every dragon type that was not made to be legendary type are not huge threat to game aka Flygon, Altaria, and Kindgra.

    I don't like option of taking out dragon because it eliminates many great types that people want to see aka dragon/electric, poison/dragon, grass/dragon, rock/dragon, bug/dragon,fire/dragon, dark/dragon, dragon/ice, dragon/fighting, dragon/normal and pure dragon type.No i am not dragon fanatic but dragon is a bridge type when combines with some bad types for good pokemon.I hate option taken way for no reason or a bad reason.We have three example of balanced dragon pokemon(if you think that mence,chomp and nite are borked).No reason not to have dragon as option on the polls.
  10. Aki

    Aki

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    Unfortunatly, society being the way it is, people are sick of dragons.
    There's been a fifty somthing page discussion on whether Garchomp is uber, so like it or not, public opinion is against a new dragon.

    Yes this is your chance to rise up against me and prove me wrong. Do it.
  11. chronostrike

    chronostrike

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    We aren't taking dragon out completely; it just isn't an option in the first poll. It can be added for the second poll though. (That does rule out mono dragon, but that's not that big of a deal.)


    If we use a Gmail account for votes, we'll need an extra level of encryption to make sure that each person votes only once and that they are who they say they are.

    This is how I see it working.
    1. User: "Issac Newton" wants to vote in poll #12 which is a ranking poll.
    2. Issac Newton posts in the poll thread alerting the TL to his interest.
    3. TL sends Issac Newton a person specific password.
    4. Issac Newton sends an email to the CAP address with the topic line: "Issac Newton votes in poll #12"
    5. The email contains his password and his vote.

    This would be far too much trouble to do for anything but the "choose all" ranking votes
  12. Dane

    Dane

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    You mean the choosing your favorite <25-40%> kind of thing, rather than rank them all? That could work better, but it would need to be weighted like he said. Maybe, in a 10 question poll where top4 are chosen, make first choices get 10 points, second choices 7, third choices 4, and last choices 2.[/quote]

    *Btw, is anyone else seeing wonky sized avatars and names?*
  13. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    Dane, everyone's avatar and name are freakishly huge. It's a April Fool joke me think.
  14. tennisace

    tennisace
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    GOGO large Dr. Pepper!
  15. Aki

    Aki

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    Bit late for that because April Fools is already over =P
  16. Dane

    Dane

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    Not for America =P

    And it only seemed to happen for a short time. It wasn't happening this morning when I checked before classes, but was by the time I checked at noon. So between 4 and 9 hours... I dunno.
  17. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    Anyway back on topic, Like what Chronostrike stated we're not taking out Dragon entirely...just won't be on the main typing thread. It will be back when the secondary come around.
  18. Hyra

    Hyra
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    whoo for running out of stuff to do in Nashville.

    anyways, supporting most of what has been said:
    - Topic Leader chosen by committee is probably the best way
    - Sunday, Cooper, Deck Knight, Eric, and myself should be the core of the committee. We all hold/held other positions and have proved our worth. Doug is the impartial chairman as he mentioned and Gothic Togekiss is left out depending on whether he wants to run for TL or not.
    - Preferential voting, but only for top 3 options. Prevents the major negative a ninth place can do..
    - Dragon is fine as a secondary type. It would still show up to balance out Fire (although it has no effect on the more important types of Rock or Ground). We need to refine the process more before we can add Dragon types.
    - BST Ranges: 500-09, 510-19, 520-29, 530-39, 540-45, 555, 580, 600. Or something like that. I think we can finally remove the UU and Uber options.

    I think that's all. And I surprised my one post sparked 4 pages of discussion.
  19. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    I'm not out of the TL running yet, just stated my honest opinion involving it. I can still give it a try if I'm deem worthy enough.
  20. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    Let's get all this written into a single guide post and propose specific edits.
  21. Dane

    Dane

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    Process Guide Calendar by Deck Knight

    List version of Calendar:
    Phase I: 7 Days + Spillover
    • Main Type (2 Days)
    • Secondary Type (1 Day)
    • Style Bias (Offensive/Defensive/Mixed) (2 Days)
    • Begin Art Submission Thread
    • Build Bias (Physical/Special/Mixed) (2 Days)
    Phase II: 12 Days + Spillover
    • Stat Ratings Rank Poll (2 Days)
    • Overall Stat Spread (2 Days)
    • Finalization of Art Submissions (1 Day)
    • Art Selection (2 Days)
    • Begin Sprite Submission Thread
    • Begin Main Ability Discussion Thread (1 Day discussion before polling)
    • Begin Movepool Discussion Thread
    • Begin Name Submission Thread
    • Main Ability Selection (2 Days)
    • Secondary Ability Selection (1 Day)
    • Name Poll (1 Day)
    Phase III: 2 Days + Spillover
    • Begin Pokedex Entry Submission Thread
    • Movepool Specifics (1 Day)
    • Begin Analysis Thread
    • Sprite Poll Thread & Pokedex Poll Thread (1 Day Total, simultaneous threads)
    • Etc (Pre-Evolutions, Height, Weight, Finish Analysis)
    • Complete
    Average time of project, not counting spillovers: 21 Days.



    Specifics / FAQ:
    What is the "Step [Y] Discussion Thread"?
    The Discussion thread is a thread created at various points throughout the creation of a given Pokémon. It is a thread that is used to discuss any given step of a poll, before the poll is created. Multiple steps can use a discussion thread such as this, including "Overall Stats", "Ability", and "Name". These threads are used for gaining submissions, gathering ideas, and general think tanking before a poll begins.

    Before, these threads would not receive their own threads, and would instead be done in the thread of the current poll. This would make things hard to follow, and ideas could be easily overlooked. Examples of how threads such as these would be used include the previously used "Art Submission", "Movepool Discussion", "Pokedex Submissions", and "Sprite Submissions" threads.



    What is Spillover, and why is it included in the timetable?
    Spillover is a general term for when the end of a thread's normal timetable allotment does not reach a conclusive result. A prime example of this would be if, during the main typing thread, two types end up with a total vote in the general area around 40%. Another thread would then be created to determine which result would be the final choice. This thread would be the spillover thread, and must be completed before the next step can begin.



    What are the various polling choices?
    There are 4 ways to poll.

    First is the "standard poll", where you use the basic board options to set up a poll for up to 10 choices. This is the most basic, and can easily be used for the majority of polls.

    Second is the "check poll", where you use the board options to set up a poll for up to 10 choices. The difference between the "check poll" and the "standard poll" is how many choices you can vote for. In a "standard poll", only one option can be voted on. In a "check poll", any number of choices can be voted on. This is mostly used on polls where the outcome has multiple options, or doesn't matter as much, such as with the Pokedex Poll thread.

    Third is the "bold poll", where the voters must make a post with their votes cast in bold font. Make sure that, in a poll based on this method to make it clear that no one is to post the current tally of votes. Only the Topic Leader is to do this, if they wish to at any point up to the end of the vote.

    Fourth is the "preferential poll", where the voters must make a post with their votes cast in preferred order, in bold font. This style of voting has the voter rank their top 25-40% of the available choices. This is then done with a weighted system. The numbers for each rank depends on the number of overall options available, and the Topic Leader chooses how many ranks the voter chooses. The voter should not have more than 4 ranks available to choose. Here's a short table for how to rank each option based on the number of choices:
    The option with the most points at the end of the voting period is declared the winner.

    The Topic Leader is allowed to use any voting option they desire for a poll, as long as it fits with the options available to vote on.



    What are the Stat Ratings?
    The process, created by X-Act, can be found here. Here is a temporary Java Applet for this process. This is a much more effective process than the previous BST options.



    What are the Style Bias and Build Bias polls?
    The Style Bias is based on the Offensive/Defensive Balance, as seen here. Offensive is an OSB rating of 5 or more, granting "Slightly towards Offense". Defensive is an OSB rating of -5 or less, granting "Slightly towards Defense". Between -5 and 5 grants a balanced style.

    The Build Bias is based on the Physical/Special Balance, as seen here. Physical is an OSB rating of 5 or more, granting "Slightly towards Physical". Special is an OSB rating of -5 or less, granting "Slightly towards Special". Between -5 and 5 grants a balanced build.



    What is the Stat Ratings Rank Poll?
    As seen here, the Stat Ratings Rank ranges from Horrible to Exaggerated. This poll is for voting on which number range the Pokemon should fall into, and what it's overall effectiveness will then be. Exaggerated and Too Good can be left off of the polling options, as everything in Exaggerated is either Uber or is completely restricted by it's ability, and there's nothing in Too Good to compare to (but many of the most powerful Pokemon still appear in the Fantastic column). Both of those options would basically eliminate a CaP Pokemon's ability to be usable in OU, which is the overall goal.



    How are the Overall Stats chosen?
    The Topic Leader chooses the method in which to choose the stat spreads. The TL can either create a submission thread for anyone to submit spreads, or ask specific members to create spreads. Generally, the TL will choose members to create the spreads and have them submitted by the end of the Base Stat Total poll. The option is there, however, to have the general populace create spreads if the TL chooses to.

    All spreads would need to have reasons for the given stats. At least some of the stats have to have specific reasons, such as being able to live through a specific attack, OHKO/2HKO something with a generic attack (for generic, think 80BP STAB or 70BP without STAB). The other stats can have more vague reasoning, stating which stats could change if need be to fit the Base Stat Total, which would be polled on during this time as well.

    The TL then chooses which spreads to use for the Overall Stats poll, or how to adjust the submitted spreads if they don't fit.



    When is the Pokemon's purpose, or concept, discussed?
    This can be discussed as early as the Main typing thread, or as late as the Movepool Discussion thread. There's no set time for when people can start formulating ideas on what to do, but the purpose is cemented by the time the Movepool is complete. This means it should be discussed earlier, so that the stats, ability, and movepool can fit the theme of the Pokemon.



    What do I do if the polls are close? How close is close enough for a spillover poll? How long should a spillover thread last?
    This is up to the discretion of the Topic Leader. Generally, the "close enough" point would be within 10% or so of the leading vote, but this obviously cannot be the definitive statement for all polls. If it's a large optioned poll, make a spillover poll with those who were leading, and then continue until an option has at least 50% of the votes, or is a clear cut winner. A clear cut winner would need to have at least 10% more than votes than second place. Spillover threads should last a single day, as discussion should have already occured prior to the spillover thread.



    What is the difference between a Offensive/Defensive/Balanced Pokemon? What about the difference between a Physical/Special/Mixed Pokemon?
    Using the Stat Rank System, this is easily calculated. The applet will tell whether a spread is offensive or defensive, physical or special, and by how much any bias might be.



    If a Pokemon's style is voted as being balanced, how would I go about polling it's build?
    If a Pokemon is voted to be of balanced style, then during the Build poll you would have voters pick a build for both it's offensive and defensive sides. This would be done with a bold voting method, with voters casting one vote for either Physical or Special on the Offensive side, and one vote for either Physical or Special on the Defensive side. The possible voting choices are each on seperate lines, and the possible outcomes are:
  22. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    I have a few questions I like to ask.

    1) Where would the "New pokemon or evolution of an existing pokemon" discussion be? Is it possible and/or wise to place it in among main/secondary typing discussions?

    2) "Finalization of Art Submissions" - Does that means that artist(s) are allow to make any modifications and/or redesigns on their art submission(s) before the Art Selection poll begins?

    3) Would it be a wise choice to combine two polls together if both polls have similar jobs/duties i.e Style and Build?
  23. latinoheat

    latinoheat
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    do we really need the whole should the stats be defensive/offensive or mixed thing it is way too restrictive.

    Cant you just give the bst and then ask people to come up with stat distributions and then the committe or TL decides on the top 10-25 they believe offers the widest range and are most reasonable etc.


    Also is it an evo should be the first poll.

    Every typing should be included in both polls if people are sick of a certain combination because it already exists or it was done in a previous CAP project there not gonna vote for it anyway and if they do cleaarly the community want another pure water.

    If people pick a pure dragon or something considered more powerful based on type alone so what, its the TL's responsiblity to make sure it doesn't get out of hand and we end up with a dragon/steel with levitate and 600 stats.

    Also not offering below 500 bst is bullshit
  24. Dane

    Dane

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    1. Whether it's a completely new Pokemon or a new evolution of a previous Pokemon could be discussed during the typing threads, art threads, or somewhere in there. I was under the impression that, for the time being at least, we were trying to avoid making new evolutions though. Maybe I just misread, or thought I read it when it wasn't there?

    2. Yes, those two days are for any edits, late submissions, etc that the artists want to do based on finalized stats, or just finish up what they had been working on but not yet completed.

    3. Style and Build are different enough that they really need to be seperate polls, at least in my opinion. The only ones that I feel should be combined were the two I combined in the end of Phase III since they aren't impacted by each other.

    4. The offensive/defensive/balanced seems important. It would be done before the stats, and it allows people to more easily define how they want the Pokemon to work in a broad sense. The overall stats should only be 5-10 choices anyway, this way allowing the vote to go broad -> specific, rather than straight to specifics.

    In short, basically the community decides on it's role (offensive/defensive/balanced), and then later votes on specifics. If it were just specifics, those who want offensive could end up voting on all different spreads, cutting their effective voting power, while defensive votes could all gravitate towards the same spread.
  25. latinoheat

    latinoheat
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    But whether a pokemon is defensive/offensive/mixed is based so much more then on stats.

    Look at starmie 60/85/85 is not really that bulky in terms of stats and if ever defensive won in a poll this stat spread would certainly not be considered let alone picked. Yet one of starmie's most useful functions is as a counter to some of the most threatening offensive pokemon in the game.

    In a poll what do you define rhyperior's stat distribution its 140 base att suggest offensive, but then again its 130 defensive stat would suggest defensive- so if its offensive and defensive wouldn't that be considered balanced which it clearly isn't

    I would just get anyone who wants to submit a stat spread ignore the ones that don't really have any explanation. The the tl selects 20-25 of them based on the ones he feels are most original,realistic and together offer the widest range of roles for people to vote for.
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