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Project (Balanced) Hackmons - Groudon

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by DTC, May 19, 2012.

  1. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    In Balanced Hackmons, the sole factors to determining whether a Pokemon is viable or not is its stats and typing. Ability and moves don't matter anymore as everything can use whatever it wants. Usually, the biggest issue when making teams is not what Pokemon you should use, but what moves, items, and abilities to use on it. Ubers are allowed too, so as such, most common Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons are Ubers with 680+ BST.

    Welcome to Project (Balanced) Hackmons. Here we will explore each individual viable Pokemon in Hackmons. First we will start with some of the most common Pokemon, then we will move on to the less common Pokemon. Each week the Pokemon will change, and the Pokemon is decided by either DTC or verbatim. Post any good sets that you've used on these Pokemon, their niches in Balanced Hackmons, etc. Make sure you test the set that you post and that it isn't outclassed by anything else. Also feel free to theorymon, but make sure you make it clear that you are theorymon'ing, and try to keep discussion towards the end of the week to your experiences with or against that Pokemon.

    The Pokemon that we will be "exploring" this week is:


    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Groudon

    • Incredibly high Attack stat
    • Very good bulk; enough to wall most physical attackers
    • Decent defensive typing and great offensive typing
    • Fantastic tank
    • Access to STAB Nature Power, which it can abuse with a Prankster set

    What set do you like the best? Prankster? Shell Smash + Sand Power? Some kind of tank set? Something else? Post away!

    Good sets (open)

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Groudon [​IMG]
    Trait: Prankster
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Recover
    - Nature Power

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Groudon [​IMG]
    Trait: Prankster
    Impish (+Def, -SpA) / Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Belly Drum
    - Nature Power
    - Spore / Substitute
    - Baton Pass
  2. Skyshayde

    Skyshayde

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    Sounds fun, I'll add some sets in a minute

    Well, I don't use a Groudon, but

    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait:Prankster
    Adamant?
    -Nature Power
    -Shell Smash
    -Recover
    -Stone Edge/Spore

    Idk about that, just Theorymonning here
  3. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Mind sharing the benefits of using that? It looks quite interesting; I want to know more!

    Here is a set that I'm interested in using:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Groudon [​IMG]
    Trait: Prankster
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Recover
    - Nature Power

    I've used a set like this a while ago and it was insanely fun. It used Sand Rush > Prankster on a sand team, so it wasn't as good as this one, as it was reliant on sand support to be as effective as it can be and no priority for Pokemon that outspeed Groudon even in the sand. Anyways, this Groudon aims to stall out teams with the combination of Substitute, Roost, and Toxic, and its solid Defense and Special Defense stat. Nature Power is priority if Groudon needs to use it and gets past the Pokemon that don't get affected by Toxic: Poison- and Steel-types. Being able to 2HKO Pokemon such as Deoxys-S without boosting or a boosting item is nice as well. Magic Bounce Pokemon are very annoying, so be careful of them if you're using this set. Toxic Spikes support gets past them, however.
  4. Skyshayde

    Skyshayde

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    Shell Smash+STAB Priority Earthquake+150 Base Attack

    Recover is just there, and Spore is so it can setup
  5. akela

    akela

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    Up until I was "corrected" on how to "properly" play balanced hackmons, I was using a weight based Groudon. Groudon is 2094.4 lbs/950 kg unmodified. He outweighs Altered Forme Giratina by a little more than 400 lbs and Dialga by nearly 600 lbs. Not to get too much into other mons, but most ones used in BH are less half the weight of Groudon.

    There are 2 moves that make use of weight that you'd want to use on Groudon. The Fire type Heat Crash and the Steel type Heavy Slam.

    Those that are 1047.2 lbs or higher will result in 40 BP for them.
    Those that are between 693.13 and 1047.2 lbs will result in 60 bp.
    Those that are between 523.6 and 693.13 lbs will result in 80 bp.
    Those that are between 418.88 and 523.6 lbs will result in 100 bp.
    Those that are less than 418.88 lbs will result in 120 bp.

    I imagine you could place Heavy Metal on Groudon to guarantee the 100 BP (at least) or Skill Swap with Light Metal, but I feel as though that is a waste of ability and move slot. I think you'd be better off focusing on improving Groudon's speed.

    Weight Groudon worked fairly well for me until people realized that Heavy Slam had a fire counterpart (which usually happen after I beat them with Heat Crash). Once people realized to have heavy and anti fire/steel/ground mons, it ceased to work.

    What I had was:
    Groudon @ Red Card
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    - Heat Crash
    - Heavy Slam
    - Spore
    - Earthquake

    Having Red Card on Groudon made use of its tank like qualities. It could survive an attack from a pokemon with a couple of boosts on it. When it did, those hard earned boost went away. I have already explained Heat Crash and Heavy Slam, and Earthquake is self explanatory. I was using this on a Sun team, which explains away Chlorophyll.

    I feel like I should reiterate that this has since been countered and is mostly unusable. Anything faster will destroy it. Two ubers are slower, 6 are just as fast, and 7 are faster (counting different formes to only be 1 Pokemon).
  6. Imanalt

    Imanalt WHY BUNNELBY DO HAVE FUR?
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    In my experience, a sub shell smash set is the best, as a surprisingly low number of things can break its sub.

    Groudon @ Lum berry (or life orb i guess maybe?)
    Magic Bounce
    Adamant nature
    -Substitute
    -Shell smash
    -Earthquake
    -Stone edge/crunch

    crunch hits gira a bit harder, and hits lugia close to as hard without the miss chance, LO might be worth it if it gets you an ohko, ill be back with calcs soon

    Edit: if you're running stone edge, run Life Orb, because it guarantees OHKO on Lugia. With Crunch, LO does not seem worth it
  7. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    A SubSmash set looks like it'd be excellent on Groudon! I agree, Groudon is great at setting up Substitutes. Perhaps a different ability would be better than Magic Bounce, though, especially when Substitute blocks most of the things that Magic Bounce blocks. Maybe Simple? Or possibly something else would be better?

    Most Groudon that I've been seeing lately are Prankster. Groudon makes an excellent Prankster user as it is the second most strongest Nature Power user (Marowak beats it) and has amazing bulk allowing to support its team well. It can also abuse any boosts that it gets from Heart Swap well. The Toxic stalling Groudon set I posted earlier is also quite fun to use. Has anyone here used it?

    Anyways, I've been testing out more offensive Groudon variants. Here was the set I used (well, technically sets):

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Groudon [​IMG] / [​IMG]
    Trait: Sand Force
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Magic Coat / ExtremeSpeed
    - Recover / U-turn

    In the sand, with Life Orb, Groudon can 2HKO non Leftovers Giratina all of the time. Usually, you'll just be using Earthquake, but Stone Edge is useful for hitting Flying-types. Recover is a good move on... any Pokemon that isn't choiced or has no room for it. Magic Coat is useful for blocking Spore's and hazards, but honestly I haven't been using it much.

    As most of the time you'll just be using Earthquake, Choice Band can also be used. Stone Edge has amazing coverage with Earthquake. Nothing common resists EdgeQuake. ExtremeSpeed is priority when you really need it, but it's quite weak. U-turn is for scouting. Obviously you wouldn't want to use Magic Coat or Recover on a Choice set.

    Adaptability might have merit as well, but you're better off using it on a Pokemon that has dual STAB.

    I've also wondered if Groudon could make a good pivot. Here is a set that I will be testing out soon, and I encourage you all to do it as well.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Groudon [​IMG]
    Trait: Regenerator
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - U-turn
    - Sacred Fire
    - Heal Bell / Rapid Spin / hazards / status??

    U-turn is great for scouting, and Groudon's U-turn's are strong enough to break most common Substitutes. Earthquake is STAB; if you're not using Earthquake or Nature Power, why are you using Groudon at all? Sacred Fire is a very good move, but there are a ton of Lum Berry Pokemon running around.

    Now, I'm not sure on what to use in the last slot. Heal Bell is useful for status'd Pokemon, Rapid Spin is great for spinning away the prominent hazards, and Groudon is good at setting up hazards and status itself, but without recovery it'll struggle setting them up without taking a lot of damage itself. Perhaps Wish is a good option, although Groudon doesn't have a very high HP stat.



    I'm wondering what your opinion's are on these:
    • What role does Groudon do best?
    • Why use Groudon over other Pokemon?
    • How do you appropriately deal with Groudon?
    • What does its stat and type combination help it do?

    I think the merit in using Groudon is its ability to both tank Pokemon and support its team at the same time. It's also a formidable offensive Pokemon and a lot of Pokemon struggle to beat it. It won't wall as much as Giratina, but it can do a lot more back.

    There is definitely more to explore with Groudon. A Pokemon as bulky and powerful as Groudon in a tier like BH can do a lot.
  8. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Groudon @ Lum Berry / Chilan Berry
    Impish / Adamant
    Prankster
    -Belly Drum
    -Nature Power
    -Spore / Substitute
    -Baton Pass

    This is absurdly deadly. Groudon is bulky enough to survive most physical attacks even after the HP drop from Belly Drum. At +6, Nature Power basically obliterates anything that doesn't resist it (91.8% - 108.2% to 252/252+ Giratina from Impish, Adamant guarantees the KO). Spore gets you plenty of free turns to Belly Drum up, while Substitute means you can evade Imposter Blissey. The Lum Berry is for accidentally reflected Spores and opposing Prankster Spores. Chilan Berry is for Extremespeed from Pure Power Slaking (which kills when you're at half health).

    The best thing about this set, though, is Baton Pass. See a flying/levitating phazer? Carry a Magic Bounce user. The best thing is, even if you opt for Spore, you can win against Imposter Blissey half the time just by Baton Passing to something on your team with a flying-type / levitate and a powerful physical attack. I used it alongside Ho-Oh.
  9. bluemon

    bluemon

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    pure power is banned so dont worry about slaking
  10. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Yeah, I'd use Lum Berry > Chilan Berry all of the time. Slaking usually runs a Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed set with Toxic Orb and Guts now, so it bypasses Chilan Berry and KO's Groudon anyways. Overall, that's an interesting set. I remember when people used something similar to that with Marowak - who could always OHKO even Impish Giratina - but overall is less bulky. I never considered using BP on it, though.
  11. Imanalt

    Imanalt WHY BUNNELBY DO HAVE FUR?
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    DTC, the reason magic bounce is preferred is it says you can set up on giratina's
    mainly they run whirlwind or dragon tail, and dtail wont break your sub and whirlwind will just phaze them, another note, whiteherb might be worth it over lum with magic boucne, since mold breaker spores have become increasingly rare
  12. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    I added my SubToxic set and FlareBlitz's Belly Drum set to the OP. I might add SubSmash soon as well, but I want to test a few different variants first.

    The sand set that I posted is pretty good, but the Life Orb recoil is annoying on the LO set and not being able to use moves like Recover effectively with CB is crippling as well. It also doesn't particularly "abuse" anything, unlike most good sets in Hackmons. I still haven't tested the Regenerator set that I posted in that same post, though, lol.

    Anyways, I'm surprised that some kind of Prankster utility set hasn't been posted yet. Something like Heart Swap / Nature Power / Recover / Toxic Spikes? I've used various Prankster utility sets in the past effectively.

    It seems like the best ability you could use on Groudon is Prankster. I guess we can partly thank Nature Power for that.
  13. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule Yo soy basura
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    I just use the standard Copycat/Whirlwind/Nature Power set. Jolly Nature to speed tie other Prankster Groumdon or Giratina

    Last move can be whatever you like, Taunt/Sub/Spore/etc

    Of course you need Hazards for this to be effective and the opponent's Magic Bouncer/Slaking E-Speed out of the way.
  14. The Reptile

    The Reptile ...
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    This might be a sort of gimmicky set, but I found it rather useful in my Sun Team.

    Groudon @ Lum Berry
    Adamant / Careful
    Flower Gift
    - Sacred Fire
    - Coil
    - Earthquake
    - Morning Sun

    Flower Gift gives Groundon a boost to it's lesser defenses and a boost in it's already amazing attack (It's the same as a +1 boost iirc). Coil boosts Attack and Defense, Earthquake is STAB, Sacred Fire is a strong physical Fire-type attack with a chance to burn, which is always nice. Morning Sun recovers a shitton in the sun, however, Recover is an ok replacement. Oh, and it supports the team with +1 SDef and Atk. Pretty cool if I do say so myself.
  15. Heroes and Cons

    Heroes and Cons

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    I actually use my Groudon as my Sand Streamer - I find its neutrality to fighting and superior physical bulk makes it an excellent candidate. My moveset consists of:
    - Shell Smash
    - Earthquake (I'm not a prankster user, so no reason to use Nature Power)
    - Stone Edge
    - Dragon Tail (good for removing pesky Contrary / Simple users).
  16. R7Rules

    R7Rules

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    I like this set personally:
    Groudon@Lum Berry
    Ability: Sand Rush
    - Shell Smash
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Hi Jump Kick/ Dragon Tail
  17. Arizona

    Arizona

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    Late arrival here, but I'll add my set.
    Groudon @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Prankster
    Impish Nature
    - Nature Power
    - Teeter Dance
    - Whatever Recovery move
    - Heart Swap

    I agree with DTC about Prankster Groudon's merit. +1 priority 150BP rivals Slaking's Extreme Speed (actually, discounting items and abilities, it's stronger and hits Giratina). Teeter Dance is a nichey bit of tech. There are advantages over Spore: 1 It cannot be reflected; it penetrates Magic Bounce and Magic Coat. 2 It hits pokemon that are already statused: pokes Groudon's teammates have Spored, of course, but also pokes that use Poison Heal, Guts, or Magic Guard + status orb to block Spore. 3 It can damage.

    Priority recovery makes Groudon hard to take down without boosts, and Heart Swap steals those boost. Prankster HSwap also acts as a good emergency switch if an opponent boosts too high; unlike Imposter Blissey it's not blocked by sub, and you don't only get the boosts, you remove theirs.

    One problem is Tail Glow and Contrary special attackers. HSwap can only slow them down, but soon both pokes will be at +6 SpA, making HSwap worthless, and Groudon has no special attacks.
  18. tehy

    tehy

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    You know, you could just run either haze or, say, a neutral coverage special attacking move over teeter dance. Not that it isn't cool to have confusion, but then you could sweep either way. Also, i'd like to ask about that one confusion move that lowers Spatk. If that beats magic guard, it might be worth a look. Probably not, though.
  19. Arizona

    Arizona

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    I don't think there is a confusion move that lowers SpA. Maybe you're thinking of Flatter, which raises SpA one stage and is reflectable by Magic Bounce and Coat. Ice Beam could work, but I've found without boosts it does pitiful damage and it doesn't even get priority, so most of the time it's useless. Haze would stop them for good, but Haze and HSwap together would be redundant most of the time. Still, I agree Teeter Dance is the weak link of the set. Honestly standard Spore is probably superior unless the metagame shifts to more status orbs or the team has a large number of Sporers already.
  20. Gerard

    Gerard

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    Why not use Swagger as a way to abuse Heart Swap better? It could be a lot harder for your team if something goes rong though
  21. tehy

    tehy

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    Well as for spore, i guess, but then it's still not great for magic bouncers. Not really sure what great specially based moves groudon learns, but it DOES learn... ERUPTION. And you have recover. So still not great, but at least it's possibly to have 100% hp after being hit.
  22. preserve

    preserve

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    Giratina @ Leftovers
    Trait: Normalize
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SDef / 252 SAtk / 252 Def / 252 Atk / 252 HP
    Calm Nature
    - Curse
    - Mean Look
    - Recover
    - Skill Swap

    Skill Swap so that none of your opponents moves can hurt you due to normalize. Mean look to trap and then use curse to deal damage and recover to restore some HP. Only thing that can escape is U-turn, baton-pass, volt switch or someone using shed shell.

    Edit: Just noticed this was only supposed to be about Groudon

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