1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Project: Concise (C&C) Full Discussion

Discussion in 'Archives' started by Colonel M, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,288
    It's about time we started to get crackalackin' on this. Lately people have noticed with the introduction of the Team Option add-ons, DPPt add-ons, and the addition of Pokemon that work well in Ubers that everything has practically become a novel. I'll show an example:

    Heatran Analysis a.k.a. "Heatran Novel"

    I have already asked Aldaron, who said it was alright for me to lead it. Flashstorm asked to be co-leader for this, so I was alright with that too. I'd like to start this up ASAP as well.

    So I guess if I'm asking if I can press the "Go" button or wait a bit.

    ---

    Also, with the Uber metagame discovering many new Pokemon on top of other minor things, I'd like to ask if it is possible to implement an Uber tab and OU tab if possible. If not, then I'll figure something out.

    EDIT: After serious discussion, we want to try this:

    - Keep the detailed analysis.
    - Write "summarized" versions of the set

    And have two different tabs for them. We can probably clean up some of the detailed ones that look too long as well.
  2. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
    is a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Facebook Manager

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,326
    I believe Colin say he would work on the tab feature when Shoddy 2 was done (correct me if I am wrong), although I am sure if any of our other programmers get time on their hands, they could do it.

    But yeah, lets get this done, the analysis probably scare people away currently with their daunting size.
  3. Theorymon

    Theorymon AHHHH REAL GOOMBAS!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,309
    I have already started going through all of my analyses, and making them more concise. As soon as I get the requirements for the conciseness, I will get them ready for posting around late october and november. In Giratina-O's case, I may simply rewrite the first set to make it more concise.
  4. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
    is a member of the Site Staffis an Artistis a Programmeris a CAP Contributoris an Administratoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    CAP Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    3,038
    I hate to suggest programming solutions to this problem, since my programming time is filled with other things -- just like the other Smogon programmers. But, perhaps we could allow each section to have a "Summary" and "Detail". The Summary would always be displayed, and the Detail would be displayed only if the user "expands" it on the page (exact page controls TBD). Of course, this would require changes to the site template, but it would also require a bunch of Summaries to be written. Not necessarily every section of every analysis on the site, but I suspect it is needed in lots of places. It's a big project.

    I think the Smogon analyses need to be restructured to accommodate the depth of information and attention to detail exercised by C&C writers these days. The current template is not sufficient any more. Yes, we need concise, readable analyses that are useful for casual readers. But, I also think we should have in-depth information for people that want to investigate further. The only way to provide that much variety, is to rework the template and navigation.

    Unfortunately, my suggestion requires a certain amount of programming assistance -- which is in short supply around here. But, perhaps we can get this "on this list" and begin working towards it. Even if the template was changed today, there is still a huge writing component to my suggestion. That work could commence very soon in C&C.
  5. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,288
    K, so I'm going to add one or two more things that could be asked:

    - HG | SS moves won't be implemented yet. I won't allow these without some time to test these, as we agreed on in the last thread.
    - As far as the Uber | OU stuff, I believe we should keep these as minimal notation as possible until something is taken care of.
    - UU Analyses should probably be left untouched for now, if only because HG | SS additions make it wonky to write about.
    - Start-up on this project ASAP.

    Any final reasons not to press go? I can easily start this Mon.
  6. Great Sage

    Great Sage

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2006
    Messages:
    6,666
    I object.

    HGSS additions are going to start after we organize C&C next week, so it would be kind of annoying to have stuff done before those that need to be revamped again. I'd also like to see this reconciled with Doug's ideas and have a sample. Take one of Heatran's sets, or whatever other long set you're comfortable with, and post what to you would be satisfactory.
  7. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,288
    Waiting is fine by me anyway. I'm just saying this needs to be done ASAP because seriously, this is long.

    EDIT: After discussion, I'm siding with the tab idea and making us have a goal of writing "summarized" sets to back up the in-detail analyses. So the old ones will be kept while we have ones that ease the eyes or simply summarize what it can do.

    EDIT2: Summary example set -

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Explosion
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice / Dragon Pulse
    nature: Naive / Rash
    item: Choice Scarf
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The set's main intention is to act as a revenge killer. With a Choice Scarf, Heatran obtains 417 Speed, which surpasses most Pokemon that don't use Choice Scarf and random Pokemon such as Adamant Gyarados with a Dragon Dance under its belt. Fire Blast and Earth Power has decent coverage; only being resisted by Pokemon such as Gyarados and Salamence. Choosing between Hidden Powers is if you fear Swampert or Salamence. The unfortunate news is Scarf Heatran misses out on a Dragon Dance Salamence; however, it isn't a bad option considering it prevents other variants of Salamence from denting the team. After Heatran has expired much of its use or if a Pokemon such as Blissey is giving the team trouble, simply use Explosion. If Hidden Power isn't striking and you prefer to kill both Salamence and Kingdra with one stone, Dragon Pulse accomplishes that. Flamethrower can be favored over Fire Blast if PP and accuracy are of concern.</p>

    ---

    Didn't really spellcheck | grammarcheck it yet. Mainly here to give you a rough idea.
  8. imperfectluck

    imperfectluck
    is a Past WCoP Winnerwon the 4th Official Smogon Tournament

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,218
    I also take issue with many of the strategic elements discussed in several of the analyses, as I believe they at times make strategically unsound suggestions. For example, I was glancing over Gyarados today, and I disagree with the statements that Bulky DD Taunt Gyarados has the upper hand vs. Suicune, 'the lower Speed can make a difference against threats such as Starmie' for Payback when Payback should be used to catch things on the switch-in and it's unsound to leave Gyarados in on Starmie. Salac Berry on Gyarados is a gimmick suggestion at best, and in the counters section, Skarmory is listed as a counter yet it suggests that Gyarados switch in, and that Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp from Rotom-A seem to be most crippling to Gyarados. It feels like these analyses are lacking in-depth strategic thought behind them.
  9. MetaNite

    MetaNite
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,510
    This is a pretty good idea. Just to get things straight, there is going to be a "Summary" tab, and then the full analysis tab. Then an Ubers tab?

    Also, if we are currently writing for project updates, should we write both the full analysis section like we normally would and the summarized one, or are we waiting on the summaries?
  10. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    Rather than summarizing anything that seems long, maybe it would be better to try and shorten what we have? I'm sure a lot of the analyses could be made shorter without losing information. For instance, in Heatran

    Heatran should be sent out against something that will likely switch out, such as Celebi or a Steel-type. It is often useful to send Heatran out for the first time after your opponent KOs one of your Pokemon; most players assume it has a Choice Scarf and will switch out. This, along with Heatran's powerful offense and great resistances, allows Heatran to easily get up a Substitute. Then Heatran can stall with Toxic, using Fire Blast and Earth Power for the Poison and Steel Pokemon that are immune to it. Most of Heatran's switch ins, like Salamence, Tyranitar, and Water-types, hate being poisoned.

    However, Toxic is less effective if your team is not bulky. You can use Explosion, instead, as it takes out most problem Pokemon in one hit. Few players will predict an Explosion coming from a Heatran behind a Substitute, so they are unlikely to bring in something to take it, like a Ghost. Alternatively, Heatran can use Hidden Power to take out Pokemon like Salamence, Gyarados, or Swampert, if you want a more offensive alternative to Toxic. Heatran can Roar on defensive teams that have Stealth Rock and Spikes. Another option is Will-O-Wisp, but it kills even slower than Toxic and has worse accuracy in exchange for weakening physical moves. If you want to use a move other than Toxic, it is helpful to pair Heatran with Toxic Spikes, but keep in mind that they won't hit Gyarados or Salamence.

    It may seem strange to use a +Speed nature without a Choice Scarf, but due to Heatran's popularity, max Speed can be a huge aid. Heatran can attack before +Speed Breloom and Metagross; neutral nature Gyarados, Dragonite, and Heracross; and defensive base 100 Pokemon. These can all OHKO Heatran, so being faster is crucial.

    This Heatran in particular benefits from Wish. This is because you'll be wanting to switch into attacks often, and you are losing HP due to using Substitute. Vaporeon is probably the best option for this due to Water Absorb.



    Paragraphs 5-7 are completely useless. #5 says something that's true of every Pokemon, as it's the equivalent of "Use Pokemon that beat Pokemon that beat this Pokemon". The next two get more specific, but it's basically a huge wall of text that says exactly what the "Team Options" section says. In other words, it's completely redundant. There is no need to repeat yourself like that. The paragraph after that (#8) is rehashing some of what was said in original paragraph three. For this reason, I just moved all that information into the same paragraph (#2 in this rewrite). This eliminates redundant information, and groups like information together to allow it to be better understood. The rest of the paragraph is more "Use Pokemon that pair well with Heatran", and is thus redundant when considering "Team Options". The paragraph about Roar Heatran was shortened into a single sentence. The rest of it is either "Use these Pokemon on a stall team!", in which case a link to a stall guide would be more appropriate, or more "These Pokemon pair well with Heatran.", all of which is still true for Heatran in general, meaning it, too belongs in Team Options (and is stated there, making all of that information redundant).

    It's always a better option to work on shortening the analyses than summarizing it. Summaries may not be necessary. This particular set's analysis had a lot of redundant information (Team Options already said a bulk of this set). The lack of organization (several paragraphs spread about on the topic of what to use in that fourth slot) meant introductory phrases had to be restated, further increasing length unnecessarily. I just reduced this section to 18% of the word count without removing any information from the analysis.

    /edit: uploaded changes to site.
  11. Jimbo

    Jimbo take me anywhere
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2007
    Messages:
    3,618
    I agree with obi. I think that making a whole new tab just to facilitate these gargantuan analyses is unnecessary work (and I feel like few people will read the huge tab when everything you need to know is in the Summary).

    I feel like it'll be a lot easier if we just shorten the analyses we have.
  12. whistle

    whistle
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,676
    idea: I think part of the reason why the analyses appear so daunting is that there are so many sets and it's hard to figure out which one to read first if trying to fill a particular niche on a team or whatever. an index at the top of the page right under the base stats could make the analyses somewhat easier to navigate.

    I also agree with obi / Jimbo because it seems that in the majority of cases, the length of these analyses comes from redundant information, poor organization, extraneous words and phrases, etc. summarizing these analyses does make it easier on the eyes for the casual reader but for anyone who wants to get a more in-depth look at the set, the same problems still exist. I think the best course of action for now is to shorten the analyses we have and see what we think of the results. even if we have summaries, I don't think that's an excuse to have ridiculously long "detailed" set comments so this is something that should be done regardless. then after all the analyses are shortened, if we still think summaries should be implemented, then we can do that.

    so summary (lol):
    - index of sets on each page
    - shorten analyses first
    - make summaries later if needed
  13. Sarenji

    Sarenji leaf-faced
    is a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    362
    You can also make short analyses shorter.

    Word count: 75.89% of obi's, 13.92% of the original.
    Character count: 78.10% of obi's, 14.24% of the original.

    Heatran should be sent out against something that will likely switch out, such as Celebi or a Steel-type. When coming in after a KO, most players assume Heatran has a Choice Scarf. This, along with Heatran's powerful offense and great resistances, allows Heatran to easily get up a Substitute. Then Heatran can stall with Toxic, using Fire Blast and Earth Power for Poison and Steel Pokemon who are immune to it. Most of Heatran's switch ins, like Salamence, Tyranitar, and Water-types, hate being poisoned.

    Toxic is less effective on a frail team. You can use Explosion, instead, as it takes out most problem Pokemon in one hit. Few players predict Explosion from Heatran behind a Substitute, so they are unlikely to bring in a Ghost or Rock to take it. Alternatively, use Hidden Power to take out Pokemon like Salamence, Gyarados, or Swampert. Heatran can Roar on defensive teams with Stealth Rock and Spikes. Another option is Will-O-Wisp, but it kills slower than Toxic and has worse accuracy in exchange for weakening physical moves. If you want to use a move other than Toxic, it is helpful to pair Heatran with Toxic Spikes, but keep in mind Toxic Spikes won't hit Gyarados or Salamence.

    A +Speed nature Heatran outspeeds otherwise faster Pokemon, such as +Speed Breloom and Metagross; neutral nature Gyarados, Dragonite, and Heracross; and defensive base 100 Pokemon.

    This Heatran benefits from Wish—you'll be switching into attacks often, and you lose HP to Substitute. Vaporeon is a great option due to Water Absorb.
  14. Flashstorm1

    Flashstorm1
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,372
    I'm going to have to with obi on the matter that I'd rather go ahead and shorten the analyses instead of making a whole new tab for the more detailed ones. I think we can all agree that no one will bother reading a detailed guide unless we shortened that as well. Making the already written analyses more consise instead of separating them means the reader will be getting the same information without having to click on the new tab (and some newer users probably wouldn't, thus meaning they didn't get all of the information about the Pokémon).

    Yes, I wrote the Heatran analysis, and I apologize for making it that long. At the time of writing, I was not aware that this problem would arise, and it didn't until a few weeks of being on-site. So, considering I'm partly responsible for the huge mass of these long analyses, I'd like to help in any way I can.
  15. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,288
    As I've stated, I'm all for both really (shorten + summaries) because I think it isn't a bad idea. Perhaps some analyses need some updates; some haven't been really brushed upon since Platinum or even before that (Gyarados for example). Either way, I think many of us agreed on having the "summary" version too, which allows those detailed ones to have their place of stay. We've also had to decide on what to do with OU and Uber-like Pokemon anyway.

    I guess, in short, we could do with both the summaries and trimming some of the fat from other analyses.
  16. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
    is a Tournament Directoris a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administrator
    OU and IRC Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,316
    This is simple: make sure the in-detail analyses aren't fluff.

    We should definitely have in-detail analyses and summarized tabs, but just because we have a summarized tab doesn't mean we should have fluff in the in-detail one.

    The project should be twofold; writing the summarized analyses, AND reducing fluff in the in-detailed ones WHILE keep saturation of detail rich.
  17. Flashstorm1

    Flashstorm1
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,372
    Since we all seem to agree that at least either shortening the on-site analyses or adding a summary tab (or preferably both) is the best course of action to take with this project, that just leaves us with one question: When do we start? I actually think we could begin the project within a few days in the OU and Uber tiers where HG/SS changes are at a minimum.
  18. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,288
    As soon as we do the C&C cleanup and probably when HG | SS stuff is a bit more stable. I might simply put UU on hold altogether, but OU and Ubers can definitely be worked on when we get all that taken care of.

    So we're not starting "right away" I guess. I want to wait until C&C gets its organization fixed which shouldn't be long.
  19. diinbong

    diinbong *it's in you to give*
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    956
    imo we should make a policy to apply this to all HGSS analysises and when those are complete start this project full-tilt.
  20. darkie

    darkie mfw i see alison brie
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Public Relations

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    6,047
    I agree with obi.
  21. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,470
    I agree that it would be good to both shorten some of our completely over-worded analyses and have a summarised tab as opposed to just shortening our analyses.

    Just checking, what should exactly be in the summarised tabs? I'm under the impression that it would just contain clear and concise description of the set and what it does. There will obviously be lots of important information that will be in the detailed analysis and not in the summarised section e.g. team options. At the same time though, I wouldn't want the analysis to be too short. The reader should still be able to reasonably induce from the analysis what to use the set for. Looking at your Heatran example Colonel M, it just describes why to use a Scarf and why to use each move. That's it. Not even something like "Heatran checks Scizor, Rotom etc." I know it's a very rough example, but it says little on how to use Heatran as a revenge killer and to check Pokemon.
  22. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,288
    Isn't that all that's necessary though? I mean, I can add some of the minor details like "This can check most Lucario and Scizor provided Heatran doesn't switch in" anyway. It's a rough draft that's willing to take suggestions.
  23. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    We should shorten first. It makes no sense to summarize as we're shortening articles (or before), because if we can get losses like I got with that Heatran example, then a summary is needless, because the analysis is no longer a novel.
  24. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,288
    Alright, here's what we'll do:

    First, we'll at least make it a goal to shorten what we have on-site. This shouldn't be overly difficult like Obi and others have stated. As for those that have Uber mentions... I might have to say hold off on those (i.e. Theorymon's Uber stuff). We definitely need tabs for those, so it's only a matter of finding someone to program an Uber tab for us.

    After shortening some of the analyses, we'll have a poll that will ask if we should add a "summarized" version of them or not. Simply put: if yes, we do it. If no, then we don't. Fairly simple here. We'll decide on a basis of what the "summarized" version will look like, etc. if it comes down to it.

    So are we alright on simply shortening these novels for now?
  25. Erazor

    Erazor ✓ Just Doug It
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,670
    Who will be shortening these analyses? I'd be glad to volunteer.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)