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Project Neverused: Revival

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Django, Jul 3, 2012.

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Django is a loser y/n

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  1. Django

    Django
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    I find this really interesting, and one of the first uses of the new Salac Berry I have seen. I can see this being really dangerous late game, especially when the opponent assumes it will be Physical and switches in expecting a Swords Dance (I certainly did this). The only thing I see really holding this set back is the massive Cinccino usage. If you use Substitute at the wrong time Cinccino will completely wreck you, so I guess that has to be taken into account when building a team around this. Granted Cinccino won't be switching into Samurott much anyway, but once it is aware of Substitute it can play around it.

    Any this is a cool set, more like this please! And can we have some more actual discussion, as opposed to one or two line posts.
  2. mrite

    mrite

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    This falls more under the underused section, but offensive gardevoir with taunt is amazing to sweep through all the regen cores nowadays, as they often don't carry a check to it:
    Gardevoir@life orb (F)
    [​IMG]
    252 Spa, 252 Spe, 4hp, Timid
    -Taunt
    -Psychic
    -Focus Blast
    -Calm Mind

    While it often can't do too much to offensive teams, especially ones heavy with physical attackers, it can easily destroy a stall team, provided that they don't manage to get toxic spikes up.

    Now for some Calcs:
    +1 Psychic vs. 252/4 Alomomola: 96-114%
    +1 Psychic vs. 252/252+ Amoonguss: 106-126%
    +1 Focus Blast vs 252/252+ Audino: 95-112%

    At +1, easily achieved against all 3 of the common regenerator core, gardevoir can OHKO all with the help of stealth rocks, or even one layer of spikes.

    Now, against some other pokes:

    +1 Psychic vs 252/252+ Flareon: 55-66, an easy 2HKO
    +1 Focus Blast vs. 252/252+ Regice: 58-69%
    +1 Psychic vs. 252/4 Musharna: 33-39%

    Once set up, Gardevoir can easily demolish many of the walls in the NU metagame, only struggling against opposing psychic types, which is why pursuit support from say, Skuntank or Absol, is appreciated for this set to work. Taunt is one of the key moves for the set, as it allows Gardevoir to block status from Alomomola or Amoonguss, and then set up while taking minimal damage in return, while threatening with a fast KO afterwards. In fact, the most damage the infamous regenerator core can do is Alomomola's waterfall at 41% max, easily giving gardevoir enough time to set up a calm mind and start taking apart the core.

    Timid is necessary in order to even speed tie with other base 80s, and in order to get the jump on absol, who, with correct prediction can be overcome, but is still a major threat.
  3. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

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    Im just going to leave this here. Perfect bulky sweeper for this metagame, with proper support can destroy whole teams.

    Rest Talk Shuffler Dragonair
    [​IMG]
    Dragonair @ Eviolite
    Trait: Marvel Scale
    EVs: 252 Atk / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    • Rest
    • Sleep Talk
    • Dragon Dance
    • Dragon Tail

    Just like his dad, Dragonair is an amazing shuffler. With Stealth Rocks and Spikes can be a HUGE threat to any team. ToxicShuffling with no toxic anyone?
  4. Axa

    Axa

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    All with Marvel Scale:

    Jolly Cincinno LO Tail Slap: 135-159 (51.33 - 60.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    All out-Attacker Samurott Ice Beam: 208-246 (79.08 - 93.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    LO Jolly Braviary Brave Bird: 154-183 (58.55 - 69.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    The defenses don't hold up as well as you'd like, and the fact that you need Rest to get your only attack in before the opponent can mess you up.

    I haven't used it myself personally, but that's just my initial impression.
  5. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Dragon Dance + Dragon Tail is pointless. If you're boosting, Outrage is a much better choice for an attacking move. That set works, but only with Outrage. If you want to go the hazard shuffling route, there are a lot of other moves that have more utility than Dragon Dance, such as Thunder Wave. Dragonair is always a fun Pokemon regardless.
  6. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

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    Forgot to say that I run it with Toxic Spikes and the other entry hazards with it. Still, Dragon Dance is not redundant, as Sleep Talk doesnt have reduced priority. So the goal of the set is to Dragon Dance up until you need to use rest, and start shuffling and doing damage with entry hazard and Dragon Tail's great type coverage.
  7. uxsee

    uxsee

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    With sleep talk, the negative priority of dragon taill is eliminated. Therefore, dragonair ends up as a fast, bulky shuffler than can rip through teams with proper spikes and stealth rock support. The idea of the marvel scale set is to abuse sleep to be bulky like milotic but also has some offensive power with dd. Dragonite really isn't that bulky while awake, so being asleep is the idea and should generally be using sleep talk over straight dragon tail unless ur awake and know u can live the opponent's attack. (Holy shit that was the longest runon sentence ever.)
  8. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

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    Yeah, one of his main problems is that he has to survive the first hit, thats why he has to be careful about who he switches into.
  9. uxsee

    uxsee

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    I was ninja'd, no fair. Any way, I would recommend a full-on specially defensive set with 252 HP/ 252 Sp.Def/ 4 Def and Careful.
  10. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

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    But my spread is designed so that Dragonair with +1 Dragon Dance can outspeed any non-scarfed Cincinno, one of the best sweeper in the tier.
  11. BlackLightAttack

    BlackLightAttack

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    Every day I'm shufflin'.

    But yeah, I REALLY do not want to deal with Eviolite+Marvel Scale+Rest Dragonair. He was already difficult enough to break down with just Eviolite+Rest+Shed Skin. But DTC has a point, Dragon Dance is half-wasted on a negative priority move. It's funny you mention this set, as my next team is going to be built around an almost identical set, but instead using Arbok.

    RestTalk+Coil+Dragon Tail with some SpD and HP EVs, and Intimidate adds pseudo-bulk. Very similar to the set you're suggesting, but Coil is much better a boosting move than Dragon Dance if you're using a negative priority move :)

    Obviously this is just theorycrafting at this point but I'll give it its own post when I've actually tested it.
  12. Django

    Django
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    If your going to run a shuffling Dragonair, it would do much better to invest in its defenses and HP, rather than attack. The set you described with those EVs is much more effective running Outrage, as DTC said. I also think a more defensive set would do better to run another support move instead of Dragon Dance, but feel free to keep using a redundant move.

    And yes I know your going to say it outspeeds Cinccino at +1 with those EVs, but a bulky Dragonair can work so much better since it can get in multiple boosts before having to use Rest, being much more effective in the long run.
  13. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

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    So your saying to run a bulky set with Dragon Dance? Or another boosting move?

    I don't see why I should increase Defense EVs when Dragonites typing is much more suited against SDef as it resists Fire, Water, Electric, and Grass, all Special Attacking types, and plus, it is a hard counter to Amoonguss, as it not only can attack in sleep, but it gets a 50% Defense boost in sleep. It's only weaknessess are Dragon and Ice, the former is a common SpAtk type and the 2 Physical attackers are mostly setup mons, bait for the shuffler. The only Ice type Physical attacker in NU IIRC is Piloswine, who is very uncommon. So while I don't suggest a fully Specially Defensive build, I do suggest it to lean towards Special Defense.
  14. Django

    Django
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    Dragonair should be running a bulky set regardless. Then the options should be either Bulky Dragon Dance, or Bulky Phazer with something like Thunder Wave instead of Dragon Dance. And what I meant was investing in its defenses, both Physical and Special. I don't have an optimal spread off the top of my head but I'm sure there is something that will let it do its job very effectively.
  15. TLCJR4LIFE

    TLCJR4LIFE

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    When did it become Gen 3 again?

    Flare Blitz? Waterfall? Wood Hammer?
  16. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    Dragonite's typing is actualy better for physical bulk. Fire special attackers are now extremly rare with magmortar in RU. Water pokes with special attack all run ice beam (bar seismitoad). grass pokes will probably seed you, have hp ice or are too weak to do anything even without special bulk investement (I've never had any problem with amoonguss and I run max Def max HP) and electric probably run hp ice, trick or will simply volt switch (and that does nothing even with no special def investement either). Plus running max defense with marvel scale helps take on some physical monsters pretty well and special wall breakers will break through him anyway.
  17. Majestic Electric

    Majestic Electric

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    Okay, so recently I've been using CMMusharna, but with a few little surprises. It's not really major, but I've found it more useful for sweeping teams:

    [​IMG]
    Musharna @Lum Berry
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 240 HP/ 252 Def/ 16 Spe
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    -Calm Mind
    -Psychic
    -Shadow Ball/Signal Beam
    -Moonlight

    While laddering, I've noticed how much Miltank, Alomomola, and others love to poison this guy. Stalling the hell out of it is also really annoying. Getting in situations like those often leave Musharna dying for no reason, especially since its avoidable. Lum Berry solves the issue and is a surprisingly good option for Musharna, as it prevents her from getting crippled by status. She is already very bulky and Moonlight only contributes to it.

    You may be wondering why it has Speed EVs. Like I said earlier, Musharna is already really bulky. Putting a few EV's in speed lets it outspeed other Musharna (excluding Choice Specs set).
  18. FLCL

    FLCL
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    I don't see why you would sacrifice Leftovers just so you can avoid poisoning once from the walls you listed. They can simply Toxic Musharna again while you fail to KO them with a +1 Psychic. I'd rather go with Heal Bell since you get eight opportunities to cure you and your team's status. Although you lose coverage, the extra six percent of healing each turn you get from Leftovers certainly makes up for it.
  19. Majestic Electric

    Majestic Electric

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    @FLCL I ran some calcs. +1 Musharna actually does more than you think:

    0 +1 SpAtk Musharna Psychic vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Alomomola: 53.56% - 63.11% (2 hits to KO)

    0 +1 SpAtk Musharna Psychic vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Amoonguss: 86.11% - 101.39% (12.5% chance to OHKO)

    0 +1 SpAtk Musharna Psychic vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Miltank (+SpDef) : 35.28% - 41.88% (3-4 hits to KO)

    0 +1 SpAtk Musharna Psychic vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Misdreavus: 54.63% - 64.2% (2 hits to KO)

    Those are the standard sets for all the defending pokes. Yes, it can't OHKO them, but only Miltank can survive a Psychic attack more than twice.

    Also, with a Lum Berry, the opponent will just try crippling Musharna again with status, which they could have spent trying to attack instead.
  20. Django

    Django
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    No really, Heal Bell does everything Lum Berry does better. Not only do you get the added advantage of Leftovers recovery (which is huge for Musharna's ability to set up), but it also lets you get as many boosts as you want on those walls you mentioned (Spore from Amoonguss notwithstanding). Despite leaving you completely walled by Dark- types, Heal Bell Musharna is definitely something to look into, becoming sweeper and cleric on its own. Pairing it with something like Gurdurr, who seems to have dropped in usage recently, could be very lucrative.
  21. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    I wanted to add coverage to Musharna too, I tried using him as a special wall instead of a physical one though but I guess you can play with the EV's. What I did was I replaced calm mind with charge beam instead and I kept heal bell. Sure you don't have the sp.d boosts and you still aren't hitting dark types very hard but I liked it better then the traditional musharna and although electric has few synergy, it was nice to hit water types hard while getting a boost and had a huge surprise effect. Maybe it's just because I haven't played CM musharna in a while and there's been a new wave of noob arrival with the transition to PS though.
  22. CrashinBoomBang

    CrashinBoomBang <~BKC> fuck consent
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    [​IMG]
    Swoobat (F) @ Salac Berry
    Trait: Simple
    EVs: 172 HP / 252 SAtk / 84 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Stored Power
    - Hidden Power [Ground]/Signal Beam/Air Slash/Roost

    Okay, this thing is the definition of a high risk high reward Pokemon: It's ridiculously hard to set up right, but once it gets going only priority has a good chance of stopping it, since it outspeeds everything up to Jolly Choice Scarf Cinccino and crushes even Pokemon such as Lickilicky and Musharna with its insanely devastating Stored Power. It works as follows: You bring it in after something dies and then Calm Mind or Substitute as you would with a normal Swoobat. Instead of just attacking, roosting off the damage or Calm Minding once while trying to preserve as much health as possible, you just try to set up as many Calm Minds as possible. Once you have enough boosts, Sub down into Salac Berry range, which gives you an extra 40 BP for Stored power as well as +2 speed, and start sweeping the opponents team. Of course, this should only be done once Pokemon such as Skuntank, Cinccino, Absol, Samurott etc are either sufficiently weakened or removed. If done right, it can devastate entire teams with the right support since revenge killing it without priority is almost impossible.

    Substitute, Calm Mind and Stored Power are a given on this set and should not be replaced. The last moveslot is for a coverage moves that hits Dark-types: Hidden Power [Ground] hits Skuntank much harder than Signal Beam but doesn't do a lot to Absol; it also allows you to break through Pokemon such as Bastiodon and Probopass. Signal Beam hits Absol as well as Psychic types such as Musharna but fails against Skuntank and Steel types. Air Slash is a nice middle ground - it allows you to do a good number to Skuntank, Absol and Musharna but still leaves you helpless against Steel-types. Roost is probably an option to make setting up against Pokemon such as Tangela or Amoonguss easier, but that leaves you completely helpless against Dark-types and needs even more support while also granting you some kind of protection against a last ditch Aqua Jet or something. The EV's can be altered to make Swoobat faster, but the added bulk actually helps a lot against Pokemon with little offensive Prowess (Tangela, defensive Musharna, Alomomola), and makes it much easier to attain multiple Calm Mind boosts. In this case, I just designed it to outspeed Jolly Max Speed Braviary.

    This set benefits a lot from screen protection, so pairing it with something that learns Light Screen and especially Reflect is recommended; with a Reflect up you can Calm Mind once as they bring in something such as Life Orb Cinccino, Calm Mind again as they Rock Blast for only 72-88 (which should activate Salac Berry unless you're really unlucky), and begin sweeping their team with a 220 base power STAB Stored Power off 834 Special Attack. It also appreciates hazards, especially Toxic Spikes, which allows it to kill foes such as Lickilicky much easier. However, the most important thing is still the removal of priority users in general and Dark-types in particular, since those are among the only things that can stop it after a successful setup.
  23. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

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    ^This set is such a bamf as I was there for its creation, which instantly makes it amazing.
    But really give this set the proper team support and the opponent will have no chance at all. There lies the problem though as it does require a lot of support to work but if you have no problems with that then this is your set. Swoobat becomes incredbily powerful after a CM and the speed boost from the Salac berry. Very high risk very high reward
  24. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    I'd like to see more sets like Sub Salac Samurott and Sub Salac Swoobat. A lot of the sets posted recently are, to be quiet honest, sub-par. I'll be adding the two sets to the second post soon.

    Also, when it comes to Research Group Pokemon sets, I'd like it if they were posted in the Research Group thread until that Research Group is over, then it'd be a good idea to post them here.

    Edit: Added Swoobat and Samurott.
  25. CrashinBoomBang

    CrashinBoomBang <~BKC> fuck consent
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    Could you put MMF as Co-Creator or something since we basically brainstormed it together? Thanks.

    Also, yeah, people need to post more good sets. There are a lot of good ones out there which deserve to be recognized more. I'll probably post another one in the near future if nothing else happens here but it's still pretty sad to see.
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