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Project Uber: Leads

Discussion in 'Ubers' started by Theorymon, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. Theorymon

    Theorymon You have a fever. I prescribe more dead angels.
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    Introduction

    The match-up between leads is highly significant in the Ubers metagame, more so than in Standard or UU. With so many major threats profiting from a lack of enemy entry hazards (Ho-oh, Shaymin-S) or from the presence of friendly entry hazards (Rayquaza, Lucario), the pivotal turns in an Ubers match are often the first two or three. As a result, choosing an effective lead is foundational to Ubers teambuilding. An effective lead in Ubers accomplishes one of three purposes: either it specializes in setting up entry hazards and/or supporting the rest of the team, or it specializes in preventing other leads from doing so. Some leads fall into more than one category.

    The purpose of this thread is to find, explore, and share new, viable leads for the Ubers metagame! Before we get to the rules, let's look at several common Uber leads. When constructing an anti-lead, I want you all to take these leads into account (ESPECIALLY DEOXYS-S!). If your lead does not handle any of these threats well, it better have a damn good trick up its sleeve, or it's likely not viable!

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    Deoxys-S


    Deoxys-S is by far the most prominent lead in the Uber metagame, and for a good reason: it's the ultimate suicide lead! It has access to Spikes and Stealth Rock, and it's fully capable of using its insane Speed to set both up. It can even choose to shut down your lead with Taunt. If Deoxys-S gets both Stealth Rock and Spikes up, you are usually going to be in big trouble, as this lets sweepers like Lucario become far more dangerous than normal.

    This is THE lead to prepare for. Deoxys-S is such a prominent and potentially dangerous lead that some leads are viable JUST because they shut Deoxys-S down! If your lead doesn't prevent Deoxys-S from getting down Stealth Rock and Spikes at least most of the time, then it better pair well with Forretress, or it's likely in trouble!

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    Groudon

    When encountering stall teams, you'll find that defensive Groudon is going to be their most common lead. Groudon's purpose is to set up Stealth Rock, bring in the sunny weather, and sometimes cripple the opponent with Thunder Wave. Sometimes, Groudon leads will carry a Chesto or Lum Berry to take Darkrai's Dark Void.

    Because this is most often seen on stall teams, and because of its inability to stop Deoxys-S, you are going to see Forretress be paired with this thing a lot. Another thing to note is that Groudon leads don't run much Speed at all, and you will see that several leads can take advantage of that.

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    Darkrai

    When equipped with Choice Scarf, Darkrai becomes one of the best answers to Deoxys-S in the game. Darkrai's boosted Speed will allow it to Dark Void Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A before they can move. Thanks to Bad Dreams, Deoxys-S or Deoxys-A will take damage and thus lose their Focus Sash! As you can imagine, this tactic is very effective against other suicide leads too. Darkrai can also use a Focus Sash to screw up how people normally deal with Darkrai leads.


    [​IMG]
    Shaymin-S

    Choice Scarf Shaymin-S is another lead who rose in popularity to deal with Deoxys-S. Shaymin-S accomplishes this by flinching it to death with Air Slash. It also deals with Groudon by smashing it with Seed Flare (something only specially defensive Groudon can survive). Much like lead Darkrai, Shaymin-S is going to be a huge pain in the ass for most Focus Sash leads.


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    Deoxys-A

    Much like Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A is mostly seen as a suicide lead with Stealth Rock. Unlike Deoxys-S, though, Deoxys-A has monumental 180 base Attack and Special Attack stats, allowing it to scare off common leads. Most Deoxys-A have Superpower to 2HKO Dialga and to KO Blissey later. Almost all of them also have ExtremeSpeed to pick off faster, near dead threats. The last move is usually up in the air. Many Deoxys-A have Ice Beam to 2HKO Groudon or Grass Knot to 2HKO both Groudon and Kyogre. Shadow Ball is another common move to ensure that Deoxys-S is unable to get Spikes up (as long as Deoxys-S doesn't ExtremeSpeed Deoxys-A!). Finally, some Deoxys-A have Fire Punch to OHKO Forretress and Scizor switch-ins (or leads).

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    Kyogre

    Kyogre may not be the most common lead anymore, but it's still a fairly common one. Most lead Kyogre nowadays have a Lum Berry. Generally, as a lead, its main purpose is to defeat Darkrai and Shaymin-S (who cannot OHKO max HP Kyogre). Kyogre leads often have Thunder Wave, mainly to screw up Palkia, Latias, and Latios. Although not as common, some Kyogre leads may actually carry a Choice Scarf and Water Spout, which can screw up common tactics against Thunder Wave Kyogre.

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    Dialga


    Dialga is a lot like Groudon in several ways. Like Groudon, Dialga leads are usually quite bulky and carry Stealth Rock. Unlike Groudon, though, Dialga is fully capable of defeating Darkrai, Shaymin-S, and Kyogre leads. Thanks to the Lum Berry, Dialga will take Darkrai's Dark Void with ease, and then OHKO it with Draco Meteor. Shaymin-S is unable to OHKO Dialga with Earth Power, while Dialga will OHKO it back with Draco Meteor. Against Kyogre, Dialga has the option of carrying Thunder to 2HKO it, while Kyogre is unable to do the same. Much like Groudon leads, Dialga has trouble against Deoxys-S leads, so don't be shocked if the team has a Forretress!
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    Mew

    Mew's popularity as a lead has recently risen due to its ability to deal with some top leads. Like Groudon and Dialga, Mew plays the role of the bulky lead that sets up Stealth Rock. However, Mew's movepool ensures that it's not outclassed. Taunt is a huge selling point here. Thanks to Taunt, Mew is able to shut down Groudon and Dialga's attempts to set up Stealth Rock. U-turn is perfect for scouting the opponent's reactions to Mew, and Explosion allows Mew to take down a Pokemon once it can do no more.

    Against Deoxys-S, Mew won't be able to do much except U-turn away to something that may prevent it from setting up more entry hazards, such as Scizor. Mew deals with Deoxys-A in a similar manner. Mew has several choices of dealing with Darkrai. Thanks to Mew's Lum Berry, Darkrai will be unable to put it to sleep, and it will also be unable to OHKO Mew with Dark Pulse. If you predict a Dark Void from Choice Scarf Darkrai, you can use Taunt to shut it down. If your team really needs Stealth Rock out, you can set that up. Finally, you can use U-turn to deal some damage to Darkrai (and possibly screwing up a Focus Sash Darkrai). Vs. Lum Berry Kyogre, you will be able to set up Stealth Rock, and then either U-turn out or Explode. Be wary, as Choice Scarf Kyogre is often able to OHKO Mew with Water Spout! Against Shaymin-S, it's going to depend on whether or not the RNG hates you that day due to Air Slash flinches 4HKOing Mew. Be warned that if Seed Flare gets a Special Defense drop, it will KO Mew the following turn!​


    ===========================================


    The Rules
    READ THESE RULES CAREFULLY! If your post (about the lead you are proposing / talking about) does not follow these rules, it's likely to get deleted!

    1. YOU MUST STATE WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE TESTED THE SET!

    2. When talking about your lead, you must include how it fares with the top 7 leads above. It's okay if it can't deal with all of them; no lead can do that! Even if you haven't tested your set yet, you still must include your predictions of how it will fare against these leads!

    3. If your lead looks like it's outclassed by another, state its advantages over the seemingly better lead.


    4. Try and be as short as possible with your posts; you only need to cover the basics. This means no team options like sections! The only time you should mention teammates is if your lead works ESPECIALLY well with a certain Pokemon (such as how the Cloyster lead works well on Ho-oh teams due to Rapid Spin). Leave the extra details to the people in C&C. A good rule of thumb is that if you have more than two paragraphs, you are writing too much (hell try and keep it down to one paragraph if you can, though that's not always possible).

    5. No joke leads. Sure, it might be hilarious when you beat someone with a Delibird, but it's called a joke for a reason!

    6. Don't post sets that have already been posted! If no one seems to be commenting on your set and you want feedback, PM a mod (Jibaku, bojangles, or me) to comment on it.

    7. If you are still having trouble constructing your post, look at the section below for some good examples!

    ===========================================

    The leads that work!
    Here is the place where we will list all the leads that have been proven to work (this is entirely up to the moderators).


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    Giratina-O @ Platinum Orb
    EVs: 252 Atk/
    216 SpA/40 Spe
    Lonely nature
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Draco Meteor
    - Outrage
    - Hidden Power Fire

    This is just mixed Giratina-O, but it just so happens to work well as a lead. Giratina-O will be able to 2HKO Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A with Shadow Sneak. Deoxys-A will be unable to OHKO Giratina-O with Shadow Ball, and it can't even pick off Giratina-O with ExtremeSpeed thanks to its Ghost typing. Draco Meteor 2HKOs most Groudon, while Kyogre is 2HKOed by Outrage. Be warned, as Choice Scarf Kyogre will 2HKO you with Ice Beam and outspeed you! Shaymin-S is only able to 3HKO-4HKO Giratina-O, while Giratina-O 3HKOs Shaymin-S with Shadow Sneak. Giratina-O will have serious issues with Darkrai, though, as it has no way of preventing Darkrai from putting it to sleep. Dialga will also be a serious issue for Giratina-O, as Giratina-O is unable to OHKO it, while Dialga will OHKO Giratina-O with Draco Meteor.


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    Deoxys @ Focus Sash
    EVs: 112 Def/
    146 SpA/252 Spe for Naive
    112 Def/150 SpA/248 Spe for Rash
    - Shadow Ball
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes / Grass Knot / Fire Punch / Low Kick

    While Deoxys is normally outclassed by Deoxys-A, it's able to do one thing most Deoxys-A could never do: survive two ExtremeSpeeds from Deoxys-S (thanks to the higher Defense stat and 112 Defense EVs). Because of this, Deoxys is able to defeat Deoxys-S one on one, since Shadow Ball + ExtremeSpeed will always KO minimum HP Deoxys-S from Naive Deoxys. If you don't like how Shadow Ball + ExtremeSpeed KOs max HP Deoxys-S around around 72% of the time (28% chance of survival), then you have the option of using a Rash nature to always defeat max HP Deoxys-S as well. Be warned, though, this means that Deoxys will always lose to Deoxys-A leads (due to the lower Speed). Naive Deoxys vs. Deoxys-A is determined by who wins the speed tie when both of their Focus Sashes are broken. If you choose to go with Spikes, Deoxys will be able to set up Stealth Rock + one layer of Spikes against Groudon, Dialga, and Kyogre (unless it has Choice Scarf, which means you will only get Stealth Rock up). If you don't want Spikes, you have a few other options here. With Grass Knot, you will easily 2HKO both Kyogre and Groudon, but will only be able to Stealth Rock against Dialga. With Fire Punch, you will only be able to set up Stealth Rock on Kyogre, Groudon, and Dialga, but you will be able to screw over Forretress switch-ins in the sun. Finally, with Low Kick, you will be able to 2HKO Dialga leads, but will only be able to set up Stealth Rock on Kyogre and Groudon. No matter which move you choose, though, Choice Scarf Darkrai will be a bitch with its ability to put you to sleep AND break your Focus Sash. Shaymin-S will also be cruel with its ability to 2HKO you with Air Slash, thus possibly flinching you before you even get the chance to set up Stealth Rock.

    Note that Deoxys-A CAN run an EV spread that allows it to take two ExtremeSpeeds from Deoxys-S: 162 HP / 252 Def / 96 Spe. However, Deoxys actually mostly outclasses this. Naive Deoxys can speed tie with Deoxys-A, while Rash Deoxys is actually faster and more powerful than this Deoxys-A. Thus, the only reason to use bulky Deoxys-A over Deoxys is that it has more Attack, thus having a more powerful ExtremeSpeed and the ability to OHKO max HP Deoxys-S 100% of the time with Signal Beam + ExtremeSpeed (Rash Deoxys does this around 90% of the time).

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    Scizor @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP/8 Atk/252 SpD
    Adamant nature
    - Bug Bite
    - Bullet Punch
    - Roost
    - Pursuit / U-turn / Brick Break

    Thanks to Scizor's typing and movepool, it can make a good lead in Ubers. Bug Bite will easily put Deoxys-S into the KO range of Bullet Punch (assuming they have Focus Sash). However, Bullet Punch is an extremely predictable move; thus you can choose to use Pursuit as Deoxys-S switches out. Against Deoxys-A, you will crush it with two Pursuits as long as it doesn't have Fire Punch. If Pursuit doesn't interest you, you can use U-turn to scout potential switch-ins instead. Brick Break offers coverage and smashes through Reflect and Light Screen, which might come in handy against teams focused around Baton Pass Mew. Darkrai leads have no chance against you, being OHKOed by Bug Bite while they can't OHKO you or even put you to sleep, thanks to the Lum berry. Shaymin-S will also be 3HKOed by Bullet Punch, while the best it can do to you is 3HKO you with Air Slash. However, Scizor will have huge problems with Kyogre, Dialga, and Groudon leads. Kyogre and Dialga can smash Scizor with their Water-type and Fire-type moves respectively, while Groudon will take little damage from Scizor's assaults.

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    Forretress @ Leftovers
    EVs: 252 HP/6 Def/252 SpD
    Careful nature
    - Payback
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes
    - Explosion / Spikes / Toxic Spikes

    As you may have noticed, this is identical to the standard Forretress used in Ubers. Forretress has two main selling points as a lead: beating Deoxys-S and non-Fire Punch Deoxys-A. Generally, it's best to Payback first against Deoxys-S, as it's likely to Taunt you, while it's also a good idea to Payback Deoxys-A so you can break its Focus Sash. As long as Groudon lacks a Fire-type attack, you will be able to at least set up one layer of entry hazards (Support Groudon's Earthquake 3HKOs). Forretress doesn't do too well against other leads, though, being put to sleep by Darkrai, flinched to death by Shaymin-S, torched by Dialga, and smashed by Kyogre. However, its ability to deal with Deoxys-S so well earns it the place of being a good lead for most stall teams.


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    Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Snow Cloak
    EVs: 252 Atk/6 Def/252 Spe
    Jolly / Adamant
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Endeavor

    This lead should be familiar to users who play OU. This is a suicide lead with a twist: it can deal a massive amount of damage with Endeavor. Earthquake + Ice Shard will always OHKO Deoxys-S leads with minimum HP. Unfortunately, Jolly Mamoswine is unable to defeat maximum HP Deoxys-S before it lays down Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes. Even Adamant Mamoswine only KOs max HP Deoxys-S with Earthquake + Ice Shard around 37% of the time. Dialga is 2HKOed by Earthquake, and if you get attacked while setting up Stealth Rock, you can use Endeavor to greatly weaken Dialga. Lum Berry Kyogre and Groudon are dealt with in a similar way, with Kyogre being left at one HP (since this Mamoswine is faster). Choice Scarf Kyogre will force you to switch out after you set up Stealth Rock, though. Shaymin-S is smashed to pieces by Ice Shard, making Mamoswine one of the few suicide leads that defeats Shaymin-S. Against Deoxys-A, Mamoswine will generally come across two scenarios when using Earthquake, both of which will likely prevent it from setting up Stealth Rock. Deoxys-A may decide to use Superpower or Grass Knot, putting you into the KO range of ExtremeSpeed. The other scenario is that Deoxys-A uses Stealth Rock, thus allowing you to finish it off with Ice Shard as it breaks your Focus Sash with ExtremeSpeed. Darkrai is also a real pain in the ass due to Dark Void.
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    Metagross @ Lum Berry
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/6 SpD
    Adamant
    - Meteor Mash
    - Bullet Punch
    - Explosion
    - Stealth Rock

    Once again, we have another example of a common OU lead working well in Ubers. Metagross is able to smash min HP Deoxys-S with a combination of Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch and knock out Max HP Deoxys-S about 60% of the time. Deoxys-A will never KO you with any move it has and will easily fall to two Bullet Punches. In many cases, Metagross can even set up Stealth Rock while simultaneously beating Deoxys-A. Thanks to Lum Berry, Darkrai's Dark Void will be useless, and you will always KO Darkrai with Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch. Against Shaymin-S, it will only be able to 2HKO you with Earth Power, while you will KO with Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch around 84% of the time. Metagross will falter against Groudon, Kyogre, and Dialga leads, though, as Metagross is unable to do a significant amount of damage to them (outside Explosion), and all are capable of doing a massive amount of damage back.
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    Lucario @ Focus Sash
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk /252 Spe
    Adamant
    -Close Combat
    -ExtremeSpeed
    -Payback
    -Ice Punch / Counter / Magic Coat


    Much like in OU, Lucario can work well as a lead in Ubers. Payback may seem like a strange choice, but Lucario is able to defeat even max HP Deoxys-S with Payback + ExtremeSpeed. Against Deoxys-A, it's going to depend on what Deoxys-A does. if Deoxys-A sets up Stealth Rock, Lucario will defeat it. If Deoxys-A uses Superpower or Fire Punch, Lucario will lose. Close Combat easily 2HKOs Dialga and Kyogre (be warned, Choice Scarf Kyogre will prevail).

    Lucario has 3 main problems, each of which can be potentially dealt with depending on your last move. Shaymin-S can be a problem due to its ability to 2HKO you with Earth Power. With Ice Punch, you will easily OHKO it (with the bonus of it being unable to flinch you thanks to Inner Focus). Darkrai can do the usual 'break your Focus Sash and put you to sleep' routine with Dark Void. However, if you have Magic Coat, you can predict that and give Darkrai a taste of his own medicine! Be warned, though, some Darkrai may opt to Focus Blast. Finally, Groudon is never 2HKOed by Close Combat, while it will have no problems crushing you with Earthquake. Although it's risky, if you can predict when Groudon uses Earthquake, you can destroy it with Counter.

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    Infernape @ Focus Sash
    EVs: 252 Atk/46 SpA/ 212 Spe
    Naive
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn
    - Fire Blast
    - Stealth Rock

    Infernape may seem like an odd choice for a Uber lead, but its ability to set up Stealth Rock efficiently while coming back in late game to do some damage is quite desirable, just like in OU. U-turn is an incredible move, allowing Infernape to break Focus Sashes while getting itself out of the way of unfavorable match-ups. Deoxys-S and -A are beaten by U-turning (breaking their Sashes) to either a faster Scarfer such as Darkrai, Shaymin-S, or Mewtwo, or a priority user, such as Scizor or Rayquaza, to finish it off. This way, Deoxys will only manage 1 layer of entry hazards. Be warned, though, Infernape will lose its Focus Sash! Groudon is 2HKOed by Fire Blast, while Dialga is 2HKOed by Close Combat. Scizor, Tyranitar, and Forretress are all beaten handily by this thing. Kyogre can beat Infernape, but the flaming chimp will still accomplish its primary goal of setting up Stealth Rock (assuming that Kyogre is a Thunder Wave lead, it will take around 45%-52% from Close Combat). Watch out for Darkrai (Dark Void) and Shaymin-S (beats you 60% of the time thanks to Air Slash).

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    Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
    EVs: 252 HP/80 Atk/ 172 SpD for Crunch
    252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD for Payback
    Brave / Adamant
    - Crunch / Payback
    - Superpower
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Blast / Stone Edge

    Tyranitar is such a versatile Pokemon that it has not one, but TWO lead sets, and here's one of them. This Tyranitar lead will always OHKO max HP Deoxys-S with Crunch, and since Tyranitar starts a sandstorm, it will KO Deoxys-S before it can even set up Spikes! The real secret to this set's success is the heavy Special Defense investment and the Lum Berry. Thanks to the sandstorm, Darkrai is unable to OHKO Tyranitar with Focus Blast, while Tyranitar will always OHKO Darkrai with Superpower after Sandstorm damage. Shaymin-S will 2HKO you at best, allowing you to either set up Stealth Rock or take a chance and OHKO it with Stone Edge if you have it. While you won't be beating Kyogre, it is never able to OHKO you regardless of whether it is the Choice Scarf lead or the Lum Berry lead. Dialga is never able to 3HKO Tyranitar unless it has Aura Sphere, while you can either set up Stealth Rock or 3HKO Dialga with Superpower. Finally, with Fire Blast, you can easily torch Forretress and Scizor switch-ins. Something to note is that this Tyranitar will often lose to Deoxys-A due to being OHKOed by Superpower.

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    Tyranitar @ Focus Sash
    EVs: 6 Atk/
    252 SpA/252 Spe
    Hasty
    -
    Crunch / Payback
    - Ice Beam
    - Flamethrower
    -
    Stealth Rock / Low Kick

    This Tyranitar takes a different approach to leading, sacrificing its bulk in exchange for becoming an excellent anti-lead. Crunch will always OHKO min HP Deoxys-S; however, it will fail to OHKO max HP Deoxys-S. This is where Payback can be used, as it will always OHKO max HP Deoxys-S. Be warned, though, as outside of this, Crunch is often better due to this Tyranitar being able to outspeed several slower base 90s. Regardless of which move you choose, Tyranitar will always defeat Deoxys-A thanks to its Focus Sash and Sandstream. The other defining feature of this set is the emphasis on Special Attacks. With this heavy investment in Special Attack, Tyranitar will always OHKO Shaymin-S with Ice Beam and be able to deal such a massive amount of damage to lead Groudon that it will likely be crippled for the rest of the match, if not outright 3HKOed. Thanks to the heavy investment in Speed, Tyranitar will outrun most defensive Groudon; thus, Tyranitar can potentially cripple a Groudon after it disposes of the lead. Flamethrower's main purpose is to fry Forretress and Scizor switch-ins that think they are safe. The final move will determine how well you do against Dialga leads. If you choose Stealth Rock, you won't do much to Dialga besides set up your entry hazards. If you choose Low Kick, you will usually 2HKO Dialga. No matter what move you choose, this Tyranitar will have huge problems with Darkrai as most other Focus Sash leads do. Kyogre will also brush off most of your assaults here, and thus the best you can do is set up Stealth Rock or switch out. (Note to the readers: I am still testing other EV spreads for this!)

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    Cloyster @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Shell Armor
    EVs:172 SpA/152 SpD/184 Spe
    Hasty
    - Ice Beam
    - Rapid Spin
    -
    Toxic Spikes / Spikes
    - Ice Shard / Explosion

    Cloyster may seem like a strange idea as an Uber lead, but its movepool makes it perfect for the job. Ice Beam will usually 2HKO minimum HP Deoxys-S, but Cloyster's real trump card against Deoxys-S is Rapid Spin, which makes setting up on Cloyster almost useless. Additionally, Cloyster's STAB Ice Beam will often make Giratina-O too uncomfortable to switch in. The Special Defense EVs allow Cloyster to always survive two Deoxys-S Shadow Balls as well. Ice Beam will easily 2HKO Groudon (luckily, lead Groudon will almost never 2HKO even Hasty Cloyster with Earthquake). Thanks to Cloyster's Speed investment, you will outspeed most Dialga, Groudon, and Kyogre leads (barring Choice Scarf, which will be a problem), allowing you to set up two layers of Toxic Spikes, which are far deadlier in Ubers than other tiers. If you don't need that, Spikes are fine too. A word of warning: If your main objective with lead Cloyster is to Rapid Spin for something like Ho-oh, Dialga leads will be a problem because Cloyster has no chance of actually KOing Dialga in time; thus if it Rapid Spins, it will be forced to sacrifice itself against Dialga. If you choose Ice Shard as your last move, you can 2HKO Shaymin-S leads. Vs. Deoxys-A, the winner will depend on the Deoxys-A's moveset and what it does. If Deoxys-A uses Stealth Rock, Ice Beam + Ice Shard will defeat it. If Deoxys-A uses Shadow Ball, Cloyster will still have a chance of living through ExtremeSpeed. If Deoxys-A uses Superpower, however, Cloyster is pretty screwed. Like most Focus Sash leads, Cloyster really hates Darkrai too.

    Note that I am still testing EV spreads and natures for this set. I am at least going to test a Mild version of this. Feel free to suggest EV spreads if you can think of good ones! I will also be testing more moves on Cloyster, such as Hidden Power Fire for Forretress switch-ins and Rock Blast for Ho-oh switch-ins.

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    Cloyster @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Shell Armor
    EVs: 252 Atk/6 Def/252 Spe
    Adamant
    - Toxic Spikes / Spikes
    - Payback
    - Ice Shard
    - Explosion / Rapid Spin

    This Cloyster lead takes a slightly different approach than the last one. Rather than focusing on Rapid Spin to defeat Deoxys-S, this Cloyster uses the combination of Payback and Ice Shard, which will always OHKO min HP Deoxys-S. Unfornately, you only have around around a 37% chance of defeating max HP Deoxys-S, so you have the option of still carrying Rapid Spin just in case. Thanks to the investment in Attack and Payback, Cloyster will no longer have to resort to Exploding on Latias and Latios in case they try and set up on Cloyster (provided that you still have your sash intact). You have no chance of 2HKOing Groudon this time, so Cloyster will instead just have to set up two layers of Toxic Spikes.
    If you are using Spikes, Cloyster can set up all three layers on Groudon should it decide to stay in, unless it has and uses a special Fire-type attack or Stone Edge. Otherwise, this preforms similarly against the top 7 leads when compared to the mixed Cloyster lead.
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    Qwilfish @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 Atk/6 Def/252 Spe
    Adamant
    - Payback
    - Aqua Jet
    - Toxic Spikes / Spikes
    - Destiny Bond / Explosion

    In case you may have noticed, this looks and plays a lot like the physical Cloyster lead (it even has the same attack stat!). At first it may seem outclassed, as it lacks Rapid Spin and actually loses to Shaymin-S. However, Qwilfish has some very specific advantages over Cloyster. First of all, Swift Swim is a very helpful ability. Thanks to it, this means that you will always get two layers of Toxic Spkes up (barring parahax) against Kyogre, Choice Scarf or not. This also means that if Qwilfish has the disadvantage in the lead situation and you have Kyogre, it can later abuse its Speed to set up Toxic Spikes or use its other advantage over Cloyster, Destiny Bond. Thanks to Destiny Bond, if a lead such as Dialga decides to lay down Stealth Rock and then attack, you can potentially get a surprise kill. If that doesn't suit your style, Explosion is still a worthy move. Qwilfish can also absorb Toxic Spikes, which is a very rare but helpful quality in the Ubers metagame. Finally, unlike Cloyster, Qwilfish is not weak to Stealth Rock, which, when combined with rain support, can make Qwilfish more useful if you face a lead that beats you (Darkrai, Shaymin-S, and Deoxys-A mainly) Something to note against Deoxys-A is that if it does not have Shadow Ball or Thunder, Qwilfish may actually defeat it. I may test more bulky Qwilfish spreads later to see if I can beat Deoxys-A consistently, but don't count on it. Otherwise, Qwilfish plays in a very similar manner that physical Cloyster does.
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    Froslass @ Focus Sash
    EVs: 6 Atk/
    252 SpA/252 Spe
    Hasty
    - Spikes
    - Shadow Ball
    - Ice Shard
    - Destiny Bond / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire / Taunt

    At first, Froslass may seem like a bad Deoxys-S, but it has several advantages over it, especially if you have a Stealth Rock user somewhere on your team. One of the things Froslass can do that Deoxys-S normally can't (without a Choice Scarf at least) is not get totally screwed over by Shaymin-S, as Ice Shard will 2HKO it. With Shadow Ball + Ice Shard, you will always defeat min HP Deoxys-S, though sadly you don't have a chance of KOing max HP Deoxys-S before it gets up two entry hazards. Deoxys-A has no chance against Froslass, because thanks to its Ghost-typing, Deoxys-A can't finish it off with ExtremeSpeed.
    Froslass will have no problems getting at least two layers of Spikes up against Dialga, Kyogre (unless it has Choice Scarf as usual), and Groudon. Much like other Focus Sash leads, Froslass hates Darkrai's guts.

    That Ghost-typing is helpful in another way, as this means that Forretress can't just Rapid Spin your Spikes away. However, unless you have Hidden Power Fire or Taunt, it will still be able to set up on you. Destiny Bond is also a very handy move for the last slot, because with Froslass's 110 base Speed, it is fully capable of screwing over something like a Bulk Up Dialga locked into Outrage. If you simply want to 2HKO Groudon or be able to revenge kill some Rayquaza without a Dragon Dance and non Scarfed Garchomps, feel free to use Ice Beam.



    ===========================================
    Credits

    This area is reserved for crediting the people who help made this thread possible and who have contributed positively to the thread, whether they contributed a set that has been put in the section of approved sets, or have greatly contributed to the quality of the thread.

    Theorymon for making this thread.
    reachzero for writing the first paragraph of the introduction.
    Jibaku for checking over the thread before it was posted.
    bojangles for checking over the thread before it was posted, and spell checking
    Fireburn for writing the Infernape lead set
    jumpluff for spell checking the thread.
    Eo Ut Mortus for spell checking the thread
  2. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    Rayquaza @ Life Orb/Lum Berry
    Ability: Air Lock
    EVs: 42 Atk/216 Spd/252 SAtk
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Brick Break
    - Extremespeed
    - Fire Blast

    Rayquaza plays is a lot like it's little brother Dragonite in OU as an anti-lead, beating a lot of the common leads while being a very dominant attacking force. Rayquaza is able to easily dispose of a lot of leads with Draco Meteor, while denting even more with Extremespeed. Brick Break does quite a bit to Dialga, almost 2HKOing them. Draco Meteor cripples Groudon, Kyogre, and Deoxys-S, if not outright killing Deoxys thanks to it's massive 150 base SpA. With its 150 Attack and minimal investment in Attack, Extremespeed is still very potent against the weaker leads, and can be used midgame for other sweepers. All in all, Rayquaza makes a fantastic anti-lead.

    yea sorry reach

    it's his set
  3. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    You could also consider putting Lum/Chesto Berry on for Darkrai leads, as they will put you to sleep before you can Draco Meteor/Brick Break it.
  4. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    Yea Lum Berry is an interesting option, although generally the raw power is a lot more desirable than just having a more favorable matchup against one lead.
  5. Theorymon

    Theorymon You have a fever. I prescribe more dead angels.
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    Okay I know the thread just started, but there is something I need to clarify. When posting about a lead, you need to include how it does against the TOP 7 leads (look at the OP. note that these are the top 7 most used leads from last month!). Next time I see a post that ignores that, I may delete it!
  6. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    Oof, ninja'd by Sprinkles. Not cool, man. Anyway, let me explain what leadQuaza is designed to do and how it works.

    Rayquaza @ Life Orb
    Ability: Air Lock
    EVs: 42 Atk/216 Spd/252 SAtk
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Brick Break
    - Extremespeed
    - Fire Blast

    At first, it looks like an ordinary MixQuaza, which of course it is. The reason you would use it as a lead is to force the enemy to choose between losing a Pokemon and getting up entry hazards. I was sick of letting Deoxys-e get up Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes, so I was specifically looking for something that would beat Deo-e, Groudon and Dialga. The most important aspect of leadQuaza is that it always 2HKOs 252/0 Deoxys-e with Fire Blast + Extremespeed, only letting it get up Stealth Rock before it dies (or nothing if it Taunts Rayquaza, as it sometimes does!). I know tito uses Focus Sash on his leadQuaza, but tbh I'd rather not be forced to use Draco Meteor right away against Deo-e to get the 2HKO!

    Against Groudon, Rayquaza does 75.7% - 89.4% against Careful Support Groudon, perhaps even KOing less bulky Groudon variants. you'll do 19.6% - 23.3% with Extremespeed against the same Groudon, so you have an excellent chance of 2HKOing. The great part about that, of course, is that if Groudon Thunder Waves you turn one (as it usually does), Groudon will fail to get Stealth Rock up before it dies. If it sets up Stealth Rock turn one (as it occasionally does), it'll die leaving Rayquaza virtually untouched, and you'll be up 6-5 with an 80% MixQuaza.

    Dialga is a bit of a different story; it generally has three options against leadQuaza: it can use a Dragon move, use Stealth Rock, or use Thunder Wave. Draco Meteor does 72.8% - 86.1% to Support Dialga, so if Dialga choose a Dragon move and kills Rayquaza, it's very simple to bring in almost anything faster and finish Dialga off before it can set up Stealth Rock. If Dialga uses Stealth Rock turn one, you will outspeed and easily 2HKO it with Draco Meteor and Brick Break, and again you're up 6-5 with an 80% MixQuaza (and your opponent has no way to put SR back up if you Spin it away!). If Dialga Thunder Waves, the worst case scenario is that Rayquaza will be paralyzed when Dialga dies, and the opponent will have Stealth Rock up; effectively the game is 5-5 and you don't yet have SR up. However, this is the worst case scenario against Dialga! Also, many lead Dialga are not as bulky as the support set, allowing them to be OHKOed by Rayquaza, amusingly enough!

    Lead Darkrai is leadQuaza's worst enemy; the most Rayquaza can hope to do is 40.5% - 48% with Extremespeed before it takes Dark Void. If Darkrai Tricks immediately, of course, you will win; however, that's pretty rare, unless your opponent is paranoid about Wobbuffet.

    Shaymin-S is pretty straightforward; Rayquaza almost always draws HP Ice or Air Slash, so switching to a Steel is a good idea.

    Deoxys-A is also straightforward; simply spam Extremespeed until one lead or the other dies; Deo-A will have to choose whether to kill Rayquaza or to get Stealth Rock up (assuming you have priority or a Scarf user to finish a 1% Deoxys-A, which is cool because Scizor works well with leadQuaza!). Of course, Deoxys-A will die regardless against leadQuaza if it lacks an Ice move.

    Kyogre is the lead I hate seeing the most, since you have to respond differently to Scarf Kyogre and to Thunder Wave Kyogre ("Slowgre"). Against Scarf you would ideally switch to your usual Kyogre check; against Slowgre you would ideally use Draco Meteor to do 61.1% - 72.3% to Kyogre before either dying to Ice Beam or taking a Thunder Wave (I usually don't switch because Palkia and Lati@s both hate paralysis). If Kyogre Thunder Waves (which is probably the smartest move) you'll at least do 29.5% - 34.9% more with Extremespeed, which will probably put Kyogre very close to death, leaving you at 5-5 at least.

    Rayquaza 2HKOs lead Mew easily with Draco Meteor + Extremespeed; it forces out lead Giratina-o (or happily OHKOs it with Draco Meteor if it stays in), and similarly forces out or OHKOs Scizor and Forretress with Fire Blast. The only Tyranitar variant that is beating leadQuaza is Focus Sash (because of Brick Break), and even so Tyranitar won't get Stealth Rock up. Having Brick Break is also cool because it means that you almost never lose to annoying Screens + Mew Baton Pass teams!

    In summary, leadQuaza is as good as it is because it controls the entry hazard game: it disallows support leads to set up their hazards, or severely penalizes them for doing so (by killing them while taking very little damage). The only leads you REALLY lose to are Darkrai and Scarf Kyogre, and even the worse case scenarios work out well for the leadQuaza user in the rest. In fairness, I have occasionally seen Deoxys-e use Ice Beam to deal with leadQuaza, but this severely handicaps Deoxys-e against virtually every other lead.

    Edit: By the way, please follow my example and account for all seven top leads when posting your leads in this thread, thank you!
  7. mite b cool

    mite b cool

    Joined:
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    Alright, I'm not a total newcomer to ubers, but i'm not an expert. This is a lead I've been theorymoning for a while now, wanted to get some opinions on it as well as show it off.

    Haven't tested
    [​IMG]
    Abomasnow @ Focus Sash/ Lum Berry
    12 HP/ 252 SpA/ 244 Spe OR 252 HP/ 252 SpA/ 4 Att?
    Mild
    ~ Grass Knot
    ~ Blizzard
    ~ Focus Blast
    ~ Ice Shard

    Abomasnow has nice Grass/ Ice typing which lets it beat quite a few leads in Ubers. Along with hail removing sashes and Ice shard providing priority, it can be quite the anti lead.

    Vs. Deoxys-S: you win here, Deoxys will only get one layer of spikes up or none if it decides to attack. Blizzard does 77.2% - 91.3%, followed up by the 18.7% - 22.4% provided by Ice shard and the 6% chipped off Deo's heath via hail. According to Januarys shoddy statistics, only 16% of Deoxys- S have Signal Beam while even less have Superpower- you should win here.

    Vs. Groudon: Grass Knot does 86.1% - 101.5% to 252/ 60 SpD Groudon. Followed up by Ice shard and hail recoil you will KO. Groudon can only hope to KO you with overheat or stone edge, which will be prevented by the focus sash if its used.

    Darkrai: hit and miss really, Focus Blast will do 84.4% - 100% to 52 HP Darkrai, followed up by Ice shard and hail etc etc. Have to use Lum berry to avoid Sleep.

    Shaymin- S If you have a sash, you win, Ice shard does 59.6% - 71.3% to 4HP Shaymin-S. Air Slash has a chance to KO you (89.5% - 106.2%), once again it can be avoided by Focus sash.

    Deoxys-A Hail is your saviour! Live whatever Deo A can throw at you with your trusty sash and Bring it down to 1HP with Blizzard, it will fall to residual damage.

    Kyogre Grass Knot 2KHOs 252/0 versions, while it cant do the same back, you will outspeed 0 speed Kyogre with the given EV's.

    Diagla tricky, but most of the time Abomasnow will win. Focus Blast just manages to 2HKO 252/ 116 Diagla with help from residual damage. can live through either Draco Meteor or flamethrower with sash. Outspeeds no speed variants with the given EV's.

    My only concerns appear to be the EV spread, and whether I want to be slower than weather starters. More HP makes Abomasnow relativley more bulky, I think that is the route I'm going to take. The item is up in the air, Focus sash is probably the most appropriate though, even if Darkrai is a bitch.

    Shoddys not working atm, hoping Theorymon will test :D
  8. V97

    V97

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    Deoxys-A

    This is an odd choice scarf set I posted on undiscovered movesets-

    *Tested minimally- most matchup descriptions are theoretical*

    Deoxys-A @ Choice Scarf
    EVs: 252 atk/ 252 sp. atk/ 4 spe
    Hasty
    Grass Knot/ Superpower/ Trick/ Pursuit

    This lead fairs pretty well against most common leads, although its playstyle differs drastically from lead to lead. Against other Deoxys leads, this Deo has a speed advantage, and can trick its choice scarf quickly onto other Deoxys. This will mean they either used stealth rock or attacked. If it's the former, they switch out, and you nail them with pursuit. If it's the latter, switch out to the appropriate recipient for the choiced attack (you most likely survived due to recieving a choice scarf).
    You can outrun choice scarf Kyogre, and can cripple its water spout by reducing its HP to ~20 %. Against the thunderwave lead you still score a 2HKO, although honestly I haven't played enough of them to really predict what would happen in this matchup. Supporting Groudon is also 2HKO'd by grass knot, although in this case you're probably better off using trick. You will most likely outrun scarf darkrai if you run hasty, although if they run Timid and 208(iirc that's the number, i might be off a bit) spe EVs they'll outrun you. If you want, you could move some EVs from attack to speed to guarantee that you'll outrun Darkrai. I'm not sure what the minimum requirement is for a OHKO in terms of attack EVs, but with 252 and superpower you're getting a perfect KO.
    As for leads this doesn't fair well with at all, shaymin S will screw you over every time. Dialga also, while 2HKO'd by superpower, will also most likely KO you before you can land your second hit.
  9. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
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    V97, I don't think that set will work.

    Lets look at it versus the top leads:
    Deoxys-S - Ok, so you trick them the scarf. You're gimped then though. With 4 Speed, you're going to miss out on outspeeding a lot of things, and Deoxys-A cannot take a hit under any circumstances. Also whats the damage from Pursuit to Deoxys-S? If its not an OHKO, Dxys-S can come back and lay some more hazards, especially with its now-massive Speed. Especially if they don't switch and use Spikes first turn.
    Groudon - 2HKOed by Grass Knot, while it'll do a heavy sum with Earthquake, or still get to lay down the rocks. If you trick it, Deoxys-A is dead in the water, even though Groudon is crippled.
    Darkrai - You said yourself, its not a guarantee to outspeed it. If thats the case, then it will definitely beat you. It can sleep you, or do huge amounts with Dark Pulse, while you're forced to switch out.
    Shaymin-S - you're screwed, air Slash will flinch you. Even if it doesn't, you have nothing to hit it with.
    Deoxys-A - It'll hit you with Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, or even Fire Punch, and then finish you off with ExtremeSpeed, while can't KO it though its Focus Sash. Then it gets the Rocks up.
    Kyogre - against Twave leads, they'll paralyze you and then Surf you for the OHKO. If Choice Scarf versions use anything other than Water Spout, you're done.
    Dialga - will KO you with Draco Meteor before you KO it. Or it could just set up rocks while you do half the damage necessary to KO it.

    Furthermore, this lead lacks any way to set up entry hazards. This will force you to use a support Pokémon later on, like Forretress or Groudon, many of whom have no business on an offensive team, which is where Deo-A would be. This set has the potential to work, but it needs major tweaking.
  10. V97

    V97

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    I'll run the damage calcs in a sec, so i'll edit this if i'm wrong, but I'm almost sure that pursuit scores a KO on Deo S. As for Deo A, the real danger in Deoxys A leads is their ability to hit so many things- they put pressure on the opponent early. By giving it a scarf, you either make it switch out (pursuit KO) or attack again, which gives you to bring in another poke resistant to the attack they're locked into. Maybe that's not the best thing in the world, but IMO, it's good to neutralize a threat like that early.
    With groudon, yeah, it's not the best matchup, but inany case you'll always land a grass knot, and no groudon can do anything at 20 %. In fact, it's rather like the leadQuaza set posted above me- groudon will either die or get rocks up (although in the case of quaza, your own lead doesn't die as well in the first case, whereas this deo will, but the point stands).
    Finally, darkrai and Kyogre. Frankly, I don't see very many choice scarf kyogres using anything other than water spout the first turn- i could easily be wrong, and just be playing sucky players, but that's my experience. As for darkrai, I don't know what most people run in terms of speed EVs, so if perhaps you could fill me in on the general trend as of now i'd be a lot more helpful.

    More to come with damage calcs on Doexys-S.
  11. Private Piplup

    Private Piplup

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    Before I begin, I want to say that "Theoremon" on Shoddy is me, not Theorymon.

    This lead Gallade can ensure Deoxys-e gets up only 1 layer and depending on your choice of moves defeat Dialga or let something set up on leads like Groudon and Forretress. You're sort of screwed against Shaymin-s though.

    Gallade@Lum Berry
    Adamant (+Attk, -SpAttk)
    252 Attk, 116 Spe, 140 SpDef
    Shadow Sneak
    X-scissor
    Taunt/Close Combat
    Memento/Taunt/Close Combat

    The first two moves are for Deoxys-e. The Ev's allow you to always KO 252 HP Deoxys-e with X-scissor+Shadow Sneak, outspeed 32 Spe Groudon, Taunt first, then Memento, and never be OHKO' by Modest Kyogre's unboosted Surf, allowing you to Taunt and then Memento or Close Combat (Or X-scissor and Close Combat if you want to kill it).
    Close Combat deals with Darkrai, who is rendered useless by the Lum Berry and Dialga, who can't OHKO you with Draco Meteor unless Spec'd.
    Shaymin-s just owns you though, so carry a Steel. Gallade can come in later, and if nothing else, buy a turn of setup by using Memento.
    Deoxys-a is dealt with in much the same way as Deoxys-e, although Shadow Ball+Extremespeed can KO you. I'm looking for a better EV spread to fix this, help would be appreciated.
    *EDIT* Leaf Blade is also an option, guaranteeing a 2hko on Kyogre, but Defensive Groudon are only 3hko'd by it.
  12. Theorymon

    Theorymon You have a fever. I prescribe more dead angels.
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    I have thought about a Gallade lead before, and you might want to use Low Kick over Close Combat because Dialga will KO you after a Close Combat (you are not OHKOing Dialga)
  13. deluge

    deluge

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    I haven't been playing much in recent times but this was a set I had in my queue to test at some point.
    Unfortunately, I haven't tested it but I feel like it should match up well against some of the common leads.
    Below are my notes from when I was working on this and the expected performance against common leads.

    [​IMG]
    Adamant Hariyama@Toxic Orb
    80HP/172Atk/252SpD*
    Guts
    -Fake Out
    -Low Kick
    -Pay Back
    -Bullet Punch/Facade/Stone Edge/Ice Punch

    *The EVs are tweakable as I just used the standard Specially Bulky Hariyama spread with an attack boosting Nature.

    Fake Out serves the dual purpose of breaking sashes while allowing Toxic Orb to activate for free.
    The resulting Poison status makes Sleep impossible to induce while powering up Hariyama's attacks.
    Low Kick is the primary attack with Pay Back as a coverage move that benefits from Hariyama's low speed.
    The last slot is slashitis filler and anything can go there including Earthquake.
    The rather weak Bullet Punch is listed as the primary option for a reason outlined below.
    In addition, some of the KOs are really close so it can help pick off something after a bad damage roll.

    Against the common leads:
    -Deoxys-S goes down to Fake Out + Pay Back getting up at most one hazard.
    -Darkrai might get locked into a useless Dark Void after Fake Out so follow up with Guts boosted Low Kick or Pay Back if expecting a switch.
    -Dialga fails to KO with Draco Meteor and goes down to Guts Low Kick.
    -Deoxys-A is given at most a single ExtremeSpeed with the combination of Fake Out + Guts Bullet Punch so you can actually prevent rocks here if you wish.
    -Kyogre, as the Thunder Wave lead, fails to KO with Surf and can go down to Fake Out + Guts boosted Low Kick.
    This calc is really close so Bullet Punch might have to pick Kyogre off. If it packs Hydro Pump or Water Spout forget it.
    -Groudon, in its defensive role, beats Hariyama as it 2HKOs with Earthquake before you can 2HKO with Guts Low Kick.
    However, if it chooses to use Stealth Rock you can win.
    -Shaymin-S prevails. While Hariyama can survive an Air Slash it'll be forced to use Bullet Punch to evade the flinch and that can't KO.

    Unless I messed up my calcs, this seemed workable at the time.
    Anyway, I'd welcome feedback from either testing or Ubers experience.
  14. mtr

    mtr

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    I tested this some time back on a Trick Room team, and it worked well at getting up Trick Room most of the time.

    [​IMG]
    Banette (M) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Insomnia
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/6 SDef
    Brave nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Protect
    - Trick Room
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Destiny Bond
    ---
    While Dialga and Bronzong are the traditional leads for a Trick Room team, Banette is a suicide TR lead: it will put up the weather condition at the cost of its life. The rest of the moves have situational uses, as does its ability Insomnia, which is quite useful against Darkrai leads. Shadow Sneak and Destiny Bond further distinguish you from the other Trick Room leads.

    Vs Deoxys-S: It knows you have Trick Room, so it will probably Taunt. Shadow Sneak twice to kill it, while preserving your Sash (and you can come in later in the battle, since there will probably be no entry hazards on your side).

    Vs Groudon: Well, Trick Room and Destiny Bond can get you the kill, but you may just want to switch after TR to ensure you don't waste any Trick Room turns.

    Vs Darkrai: Insomnia blocks Dark Void, so it will attack. Trick Room and Destiny Bond for the kill.

    Vs Shaymin-S: It's always Scarfed. Protect to lock it into a move, then switch accordingly. Shouldn't be hard to find an appropriate resist.

    Vs Deoxys-A: The New Dx-A lead can't touch you with only Superpower and ExtremeSpeed, so you can use Shadow Sneak to kill it while it only sets up Stealth Rock. Immediate Damage Dx-A leads are beaten by Trick Room + Destiny Bond.

    Vs Kyogre: Trick Room + Destiny Bond, Thunder Wave can be annoying, but whatever: you're playing Trick Room, lol. You should probably use Protect first to find out what kind of lead it is.

    Vs Dialga: Trick Room + Destiny Bond. Unless it also has Trick Room, in which case the fun begins.
  15. locoghoul

    locoghoul

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    I tested this after trying the Mamoswine anti-lead:

    [​IMG]
    Donphan @ Focus Sash
    Adamant (+Atk - SAtk)
    EVs: 252 Atk 132 Def 124 Spe

    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Rapid Spin
    - Ice Shard/Endeavor/Fire Fang

    At first glance it looks almost like the Mamo lead, but the big difference here is Rapid Spin. 124 Speed EVs puts you on 167 Speed which outspeeds minimum speed Scizor (in case you have Fire Fang which will do 89.4% - 106.3% to the Ubers CB set = OHKO with SR up). There is no need to go with 252 speed unless there is a 90 base -Spe nature pokemon you want to outspeed.

    Deoxys-S: EQ and then RS or Ice Shard for the kill. EQ+Ice shard does 97.9% minimum damage so there is little chance of survival.

    Groudon: You can 1) Set up your own SR and then RS, 2) Set up SR and then go for Endeavor+Ice Shard or 3) Rapid Spin from the start if you think he'll switch to Giratina-O after setting up.

    Darkrai: Biggest problem, you'll have to switch to a sleep absorber.

    Shaymin-S: Ice Shard for the kill or SR if you predict a switch (most of the times).

    Deoxys-A: Although you can treat it like Deo-S, he will 2HKO you first with Grass Knot/Ice Beam + ES (outspeeds Ice Shard).

    Kyogre: Set up SR and switch (Ice Shard or Endeavor might be useful later) or Endeavor + Ice Shard for the kill.

    Dialga: You can go for EQ (you won't OHKO and he outspeeds you without 252 Spe EVs) or just SR and RS.

    As a side note, you can force Foretress out with EQ and he can not set up on you (RS). Fire Fang will always 2HKO with no weather (63.3% - 74.6%).

    Also, it can revenge kill a weakened Lati@s or a locked Outraged dragon like Rayquaza or Garchomp although this also applies to Mamoswine.



    EDIT: That Banette looks like a solid TR lead
  16. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    On my old Ubers team, I used a Weavile anti-lead to decent success.

    Weavile @ Focus sash
    Adamant/Jolly, 252 ATK 252 SPE
    -Swords Dance
    -Ice Shard
    -Low Kick
    -Ice Punch/Night Slash

    Deo-S: If you run Night Slash, you can kill even max HP variants with Night Slash -> Ice Shard. If you run Ice Punch, use Swords Dance (most people don't Taunt Weavile, and if they know your set you get into mindgames) and use Ice Punch -> Ice Shard. It needs Extremespeed, Signal Beam/HP Fire, and lots of EVs into both ATK and SATK to beat you.

    Groudon: If you run Ice Punch, you should be able to beat most variants. Groudon can either paralyze you and get rocks up, in which case something on their team is going to have to deal with a +2 Weavile with Focus Sash (nothing likes doing this) or it can paralyze you and break your sash, in which case it dies without getting rocks up.

    Darkrai: Weavile loses to Darkrai. You can either go with low kick and hope for a dark void miss, guarantee a sash break with ice shard, or just go to a sleep absorber.

    Shaymin-S: Ice shard.

    Giratina-O: Mixed variants usually lose to Night Slash/Ice Punch -> Ice Shard, since they typically run a -DEF nature and no defensive EVs. You need Adamant to guarantee this against variants that run some defensive EVs, and you lose against slow, heavily defensive variants...but those are very uncommon.

    Kyogre: SD -> Low Kick takes out all offensive variants barring Scarfogre. 252 HP Thunderwave variants barely survive +2 Low Kick (72.8% - 85.9%) and will always die to Ice Shard if they choose Lum Berry over Leftovers. Variants that choose to run less HP for more SPE will always lose as well.

    Deo-A: If it has Extremespeed, you lose.

    Foretress: Standard Ubers Foretress (specially defensive) is 2hko'd by +2 Low Kick. If it has Explosion though, it can break your sash and get a layer of spikes down, but your opponent still has to deal with a +2 Weavile that can fire off ice shards and which outspeeds most of the tier.

    Dialga: Beats all offensive variants barring scarf dialga with SD -> Low Kick. Support variants end up in a similar situation to Groudon.

    Partners:

    Weavile loves Wobby to kill off all the scarfed leads that threaten it. A sleep-talker is also very valuable for Darkrai. Weavile tends to have Scizor problems, so something that resists Bullet Punch and U-turn is useful (Dialga comes to mind); you could also use it to lure Scizor into Magnezone, but this is risky because Scizor could just U-turn out (although it risks taking ~70% from +2 Low Kick) and Magnezone tends to be somewhat crappy in Ubers.
  17. mtr

    mtr

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    I don't see that Weavile using Swords Dance much for it to be much use. Its probably better to attack twice. Why don't you use Fake Out over Swords Dance in order to handle Deoxys-A with Fake Out + Night Slash?
  18. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    There are a few reasons to use Swords Dance:

    -Lets you be more of a threat even if you're paralyzed. For instance, suppose you're up against a support Groudon lead. It twaves first turn as you ice punch, then sets up rocks as you ice punch -> ice shard again for the kill. And then they switch in Scizor. Now you can use Low Kick once and do some damage to it. On the other hand, if you had used SD first turn and then Ice Punched Groudon for the kill, you'd be able to inflict much more damage on Scizor with Low Kick.

    -Lets Weavile sweep late-game, once Scizor is gone and enemy scarfers are weak enough to die to Ice Shard. This is useful if Darkari forces you to switch at the beginning.

    -Lets it beat lead Foretress without it getting up 3 layers.

    And honestly, Fake Out is not useful past your first match against a Deo lead, since they'll just Xspeed on the Fake Out from then on. If you want to replace Swords Dance with something, I'd recommend Taunt (to stop support leads) or Pursuit (to beat defensive BP Mew).
  19. mtr

    mtr

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    Oops, I forgot that Fake Out doesn't beat faster ExtremeSpeeds. I guess it can help against Deoxys-S and breaking Darkrai's Sash, but its probably an inferior option at that point.
  20. Karpi

    Karpi

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    Quoted because it works
  21. Turai

    Turai

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    I gave the Abomasnow lead with the 252 HP/ 252 SpA/ 4 Att spread a try and I was shocked to see how good it was.

    It destroys most of the common leads, lettin Deoxys only gettin up SR and no spikes, annihlating Groudon and Kyogre. I had problems with Darkrai and I didnt meet any Dialga (for once).

    Anyways just wanted to say that the set is great even when actually using it and thanks for the tip.
  22. El geek

    El geek

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    68
    Haha, u used me it few minutes a go ;p
    Remember follow the rules :naughty:

    Now a lead (is not mine):

    [​IMG]
    SuperEpic @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP/240 Spd/16 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Trick
    - Shadow Ball
    - Ice Beam
    ----
    This is like a half antilead, it works perfectly, because nobody hope this set. Trick rapes bulky leads as groudon and dialga. Then u are free for use stealth rocks; trick can pwns anoter deoxys leads because they see a taunt coming, but when i do trick they got traped in taunt and they wont may use spikes or stealth rocks. Ice beam is a real surprise for rayquaza and scarfmyn, being this las the most surprised "wtf O.O". Shadow ball for another deoxys-e =P!
    The evs spread give it more bulkyness, so it can resist some hits (something that is important sometimes).
    For me is hard explain it because was made by the great raikoulover :happybrain:
    This works :naughty:

    IN action > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUrwu7PwD9Q
  23. Erazor

    Erazor ✓ Just Doug It
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    I don't have a lead to contribute yet, but I'm posting to say that that Lead MixQuaza is awesome. Most of the time, the opponent doesn't know what to do when facing a leadquaza, letting me kill his lead for little to no loss of health. It definitely works.
  24. mite b cool

    mite b cool

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Messages:
    243
    Ok tested the Abomasnow lead and found it to be quite effective, Deoxys can only get a layer of spikes up and Groudon is usually KOed, Kyogre takes a bunch and cant hurt you back, Mew takes like 43% from Blizzard, I just Spam it while it sets up rocks than go to a steel on the explosion or U turn.

    I have tested HP Fire over Focus Blast, it is working better in killing Foretress and the arch nemesis to this set, Scizor. Also updated the EV spread. 208 Att/ 252 SpA/ 48 Spe with a Mild nature lets you outspeed no speed scizor by one point taking into account HP Fires EV drop. Running No speed lets you beat no speed tyranitar because hail will be summoned last (I think, is Tar faster than Aboma?) but its not really worth it just to beat tar.

    Oh and HP Fire lets Aboma beat Frosslass who I have not seen yet but the set I gave a week ago would have trouble with it im sure
  25. Chomper The Sharptooth

    Chomper The Sharptooth

    Joined:
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    301
    You'd be faster than the first one, and slower than second one on this page. I have to say I really like this lead, I was using the other one since you posted it and I did see a problem with the bugs. Its sad to see no 2HKO on Dialga anymore, or OHKO on a Darkrai but without yet testing it I think I like the switch.

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