Proposal RE: Dream World Abilities

[Firestorm]

[ October 3rd, 2010 ]
With over 85% of Policy Review members in favour of allowing only Pokemon with Dream World abilities that have been released, it only makes sense to move forward with that option. When discussing Pokemon in an official Smogon metagame, please keep this decision in mind.

----
[ September 29th, 2010 ]

Here are the facts:

• We do not know when a given Pokemon will be released with a Dream World ability
• We do not know if Nintendo will release every Pokemon that has a Dream World ability

and most importantly

• we cannot use a Pokemon with a Dream World ability unless it has been already released - both on PokeLab Smogon Server (proposed) and actual game (fact)
  

With that in mind, I propose that when discussing a Pokemon with a Dream World abilities for the upcoming generation, we assume they will not have access to that ability. There's no point in discussing Drought Ninetails in the metagame of the immediate future if Nintendo decides to release it in 2012. After all, just look at how much the metagame changed in Generation IV between 2006 and 2008.

I hope it'll be made very clear that analyses on and references to Dream World-exclusive Pokemon should be forbidden until their release has been confirmed. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - we need a subforum for Dream World discussion, because people will inevitably try and drag it into the regular analysis discussion. Let's save ourselves the trouble of having to moderate their posts by setting up a clear place for them to go.

As of October 1, these are the only ones we know to be released, assuming they fix the Global Link site:

Kangaskhan*, Jolteon**, Vaporeon, Flareon, Espeon, Umbreon, Leafeon, Glaceon, Hihidaruma, Musharna

*As reported by Huy.
** One month prior to B&W's release, the Global Link site let you play through some minigames and at the end, would allow you to download a DW Eeveelution back to your game between October 1 and November 1. (Source)

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I think the last option of allowing only Dream World abilities that have been released is the only one that even makes sense. We have never simply allowed something in our metagames because it exists in the code of the game (ie. fully EV'd Arceus), and there is no reason why we would break that precedent with Dream World abilities. Dream World abilities need to be released for us to use them.

 

[Toothache]

We have precedent with this over Arceus - until it was officially released by Nintendo, we never allowed it on simulators. I think this should be doubly true for the DW abilities, until people can actually use them in the DS games, they should be banned.

 

[eric the espeon]

we cannot use a Pokemon with a Dream World ability unless it has been already released - both on PokeLab Smogon Server (proposed) and actual game (fact)

We could choose to implement DW abilities on PL if/when it gets BW, and does wifi actually reject Pokemon with DW abilities hacked onto them? But still, something which is impossible to obtain in game without hacking should not be part of the standard game. And banning things simply because they come from the dream world is unnecessary. So the only option that makes sense to me is three.

Also, I would not be against implementing all DW abilities on the sim when the time comes and simply disallowing them on ladder. This would give people more options to play around with off ladder, which is a good thing imo, even if it is not technically Pokemon (but then again nor is 6v6, and I don't see any objections to that being on the sim).

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Discussing unreleased Dream World abilities would be like discussing Flare Blitz on Flareon. It could exist by the laws of the game code, it just "hasn't been released yet". Discussing the use of things unobtainable by legal means distracts people from what actually exists and is not conducive to discussion of the actual metagame in Uncharted Territory.

 

[Firestorm]

Yes, I guess I should clarify option #3. I'm not sure if WiFi checks for whether or not the ability has been released. I usually refer to in-game as what is possible without using an external device (AR, PokeSav, etc).

And yes, by Official Smogon Server I am referring to what we do with regards to the official ladders (Ubers (if added), OU, UU, VGC, LC) and official Smogon tournaments.

 

[capefeather]

I should really get someone to perma-vop me on #insidescoop...

Ultimately, we play Pokémon as it is given to us. The bottom line is that we do not allow modifications to the game that would have an effect on Pokémon. If we modify the game to implement certain nonexistent features like unreleased dream world abilities, how is that different from using Flare Blitz Flareon or Nasty Plot Mewtwo? By modifying the game in a simulation, you're effectively playing a different game. If you want to "fix" the game, then you'll have to argue a reason other than "fixing" the game, and as far as I can tell no such reason exists, other than popular demand or something. However, I have a belief in pursuing policy based on the underlying inspiration, and not the result itself, because then the decision can apply to everything instead of us getting roadblocked by every little issue.

There isn't even a good reason to expect all of these features to be fully available within the generation. We all gave TRU Arceus the name "Farceus", fully expecting an Azure Flute to be released, but it never happened. Had we just released Arceus full-on, we would have been playing something that didn't actually exist. The fact that we don't allow certain removable glitches doesn't apply to this, either. We can remove removable glitches just like we can ban any Pokémon to Uber. This applies to Pokémon obtainable only through glitches as well, like Shaymin and Darkrai were. So as far as glitches are concerned, it's all consistent.

Doug has asked who makes the decision that all this should be the case. I just think that we should have a consistent system. That is really all there is to it.

 

[cim]

Only discuss Pokemon that exist, regardlesss of developer's intentions to make them exist later or whatever. They're fun to theorymon about in Uncharted and we should be free to do that, since it's nothing serious to discuss pokemon with a slightly higher potential of existing, but no analysis, unofficial or official, should act as if they exist. And definitely not our ladder.

If a post or thread makes a reference to a Dream World ability, we should probably make that a separate category, like (Dream World).

 

[DougJustDoug]

I'm glad Firestorm made this thread, so that we have a public record of the discourse on the subject. I voted for 3, because I think we should not implement things on the simulator that do not exist in the "real world".

I would like to point out a few implications of this, that may or may not happen:

Unlike Shaymin, or Darkrai, or even Arceus -- this is an unprecedented number of potential changes that may be leaked into the metagame on a near-continual basis. I have no way of knowing how the DW changes will be released. Perhaps they will be released in big tranches of dozens or hundreds at a time. But perhaps they will do it on a continual basis, like a "weekly wifi event" or something. If that is the case, then we really need to think hard about how we adapt to metagame changes.

Aside from making changes to the server -- there are many DW abilities that have potential to impact metagame play. Some of the changes are huge, that are analogous to Bullet Punch Scizor in Gen4. When those big changes hit, we may need to reevaluate previous tiering decsions, standard clauses, etc. Other DW changes are significant-but-not-gamebreaking, not unlike Extremespeed Dragonite in Gen4. Many of the DW changes appear to be insignificant, but may surprise us after they are absorbed into the game.

We really have no set process for handling metagame changes, and we certainly are not prepared to handle a large number of changes occurring on a frequent basis. I'm not saying we need to have detailed discussion on the issue now, since we have no idea how DW changes will be released. But, we need to keep this in the back of our minds.

 

[Chou Toshio]

There is absolutely no reason to allow DW abilities (or even discourse of them really) until they have been released!

Finally-- it's a breath of fresh air to have an issue (the vast majority) we can easily agree on!

 

[Fireburn]

There is absolutely no reason to allow DW abilities (or even discourse of them really) until they have been released!

Finally-- it's a breath of fresh air to have an issue (the vast majority) we can easily agree on!

This.

 

[ΩDonut]

5th gen metagames are going to have an unprecedented amount of changes during their run as new DW abilities are released. We can at least have a subforum for Dream World analyses so that when the time comes, we'll have some analyses ready to go with only a few minor edits. I'm sure it won't be hard to find people eager to write them.

 

[Reverb]

Just posting to say that I misread the options and actually want all Dream World abilities banned just because I feel that they create too much chaos and do not benefit the competitiveness of the game. There are so many abilities which I view as broken abilities that it's less complicated to ban all Dream World abilities. Otherwise it's just confusing.

 

[Syberia]

Having Splash in its movepool does not benefit Magikarp at all competitively, but we do not ban it. We allow Caterpie in ubers matches, even though it's never going to be used. "Because something does not have a competitive use" is not a reason at all for it to be banned. And some things like Politoed, Ninetales, and Shanderaa certainly will have competitive use, perhaps so much so that it causes us to re-evaluate their tiering, or ban certain abilities.

Of course, I don't think Dream World abilities should be allowed into tournaments or on standard ladders until they are actually released. However (and this is my reason for selecting "other" in the poll), I and many others would undoubtedly like the opportunity to experiment with them now. Since there are so many of these things, instead of taking the "just wait 'ti' it's released" approach like we did with Darkrai, Shaymin, and Arceus, I think it would be beneficial to set up an unofficial ladder, mod server, or something of that nature where people who obviously want to play with DW abilities right now can do so against others who feel the same way.

This would give us the added bonus, from a practical standpoint, of being able to at least tentatively evaluate the impacts on the metagame for when these things are actually released. The other option, depending on how Nintendo wants to do it, is that we may potentially have to test a new 'mon or group of 'mons every week.

 

[Lee]

I think it would be beneficial to set up an unofficial ladder, mod server, or something of that nature where people who obviously want to play with DW abilities right now can do so against others who feel the same way.

I'm sure somebody will do just that, but I see no reason why we should support it or even permit discussion on this 'unofficial metagame.' If we start sending out mixed signals with what our intentions are regarding Dream World abilities then we're inevitably going to start seeing confusion all over the forums (for example, we'll probably see a lot of 'Shadow Tag Shanderaa weak' posts in RMT even though that Pokemon doesn't even officially exist yet). We need to be crystal clear with our decision; it's going to set a bad example if we say 'Yeah, they're banned but...'

 

[eric the espeon]

I'm sure somebody will do just that, but I see no reason why we should support it or even permit discussion on this 'unofficial metagame.' If we start sending out mixed signals with what our intentions are regarding Dream World abilities then we're inevitably going to start seeing confusion all over the forums (for example, we'll probably see a lot of 'Shadow Tag Shanderaa weak' posts in RMT even though that Pokemon doesn't even officially exist yet). We need to be crystal clear with our decision; it's going to set a bad example if we say 'Yeah, they're banned but...'

I disagree. So long as the official metagames and ladders do not include unreleased DW Pokemon it should be fairly evident to anyone what is part of the metagame and what is not. You don't see many "you are Arceus weak" posts in OU or UU RMTs, and you would not see many posts about illegal abilities even if we allow discussion. The tiny number which mods would have to clear up is an acceptable price to pay for allowing open discussion on matters relating to competitive Pokemon and perhaps more importantly giving us an idea of what is coming our way. It would help C&C speed up the process of updating analyses with new DW abilities if we had a decent place to test them before they go public, and be something which a large number of our users will enjoy.

Also, what is wrong with discussion of unofficial metagames exactly? Would you suggest the 1v1 thread in stark were not allowed? How about NU? Or even the original LC one, before it was recognized? Even though we won't give any recognition to the full DW metagame on site, there is no reason whatsoever to disallow interesting discussion on a matter related to competitive Pokemon.

 

[DougJustDoug]

After thinking about this more, we may have a bigger problem with unreleased DW changes that I previously thought. It is very hard to "keep a lid" on something of this magnitude. Whether we recognize the abilities on the standard ladders or not -- these abilities are going to be on everyone's minds and factored into their thinking. They already are. I totally understand why they should not be allowed in standard play, and I believe that is the right policy. But, "enforcing" that policy could prove to be very difficult.

Just think about how this might play out:

1) We decide to only implement DW abilities on the server and in analyses as they come out.

2) People begin thinking and talking about DW abilities all over the place. On the forums, on IRC, wherever.

3) Various forums or channels begin instituting rules or "soft rules" regarding the inclusion of DW abilities. For example, the RMT forum might infract RMT posts that refer to unreleased abilities. In other forums or IRC channels, it may become common practice to warn or remind users not to bring up unreleased DW abilities until they are formally released, while other forums and channels may encourage discussion of DW abilities. Basically, a whole "legal structure" might form within Smogon around this stuff.

4) Users get frustrated with what can or can't be discussed, and what rules apply to which situation. And depending on the release schedule of DW changes in Japan/America/Europe, it could be a constant bitch-fest as to what has been released, and when it is acceptable to discuss it on Smogon.

5) Smogon gets bad publicity for being heavy-handed and/or elitist, because of constant moderation of discussion, or perceived pedantic adherence to DW release schedules

6) One or more of the non-Smogon battle simulation servers decide to allow one or more of the unreleased DW abilities to be played on their server prior to official release. The idea takes hold, to some degree of success

7) The ability to play these abilities on simulators just increases the confusion and miscommunication on Smogon, and worsens the issues related to moderation policy.

8) The regressive spiral continues on and on...​

I can't say this is what will happen, but I don't think it is that farfetched to believe it could happen. I think the sheer magnitude of these changes is going to be very hard, perhaps impossible, for us to simply keep them on the back-burner until they are released. We may need to figure out some hybrid approach here, that allows us to keep DW abilities banned in standard play, but somehow allow us to "recognize them as a community" (quoted because I really don't have any firm idea about what that entails).

 

[ΩDonut]

We may need to figure out some hybrid approach here, that allows us to keep DW abilities banned in standard play, but somehow allow us to "recognize them as a community" (quoted because I really don't have any firm idea about what that entails).

By having a subforum dedicated to DW analyses - both for DW Pokemon and movesets that may come into use as a result of said DW Pokemon - we're "recognizing them as a community", encouraging discussion on their abilities yet at the same time making it clear they're not to be allowed in standard play.

It's also in everyone's best interests to have a separate ladder where all DW abilities are allowed. Not only are we giving players the DW sandbox they want to play in, having players experienced with a DW metagame means we'll have analyses ready for the site the moment a new DW Pokemon is released. Yes, I know they analyses they'll be writing will reflect an all-DW metagame rather than a some-DW metagame, but I think C&C can institute a few rules and guidelines to handle that.

 

[Philip7086]

I do think for official tournaments and ladder we should not allow anything that has not officially been released yet. However, I love the idea of a Dream World ladder where people can be free to go experiment. There's no harm in that whatsoever.

The main reason I came here to post was not to support the separate Dream World ladder, though. I think we're overlooking a very important aspect of allowing or disallowing Dream World abilities -- tiering. I think there is a lot more to factor into this decision with tiering in mind. If we do our testing stages without these Dream World abilities, we could very well be banning something that is actually fairly balanced with later released abilities, and that could make things VERY complicated (for example: if x was only banned because its main check, y, was prematurely banned since the Dream World ability that kept it in check wasn't out yet, etc. etc.). On the other hand, if we include Dream World abilities in our tier testing process, but not our official metagames, we could be keeping "broken" Pokemon in standard play without the Dream World checks that are needed. Allowing all Dream World abilities in standard play from the get-go would solve this paradox, but then we would not be playing legal Pokemon anymore. What to do, what to do...

I would like to see some more discussion and ideas on this tiering front please.

 

[cim]

I'm hoping our ban list is small enough (less than 15 or so) that just a few dramatic changes don't make 10 more pokemon in the metagame "still balanced". If our ban list becomes gigantic via necessity, we will be able to look at the Uber ladder to see if there is any significant "balancing effect" that other Ubers provide with a Dream World Pokemon, in my opinion.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think we should treat Dream World abilities the same way we treat anything else that hasn't been released, but may be available at some point: We implement it, allow it in unranked battles, and then allow it on the ladder as it becomes available. Dream World abilities definitely should not be taken into account for tiering and testing and the official metagame until they actually exist, because it means tiering an existing metagame on something that doesn't exist.

I think another thing to note is that people always talk about "the wifi metagame" vs. "the simulator metagame", mainly because the ease of obtaining stuff like flawless event pokemon or difficult to obtain event moves or egg moves or other stuff makes certain things "less common" or "less possible" on WiFi than on a simulator. Including unreleased Dream World abilities in the official simulator metagame would promote the rift between the two metagames, because we're actually considering things that do not legally exist in the cartridges in tiering.

So to sum up: Implement them in the simulator, but ban them on the ladder until they become available. This lets unranked players fuck around with Dream World as much as they want, and also opens things up to something like a Dream World Abilities tournament, and it also makes it much easier to add the abilities as they become available. However, ignore unreleased DW abilities for the purpose of testing and tiering until they become available, and don't implement a ladder for a "fake metagame". Treat them like we treated Arceus in Gen 4 Ubers: Ban it until it becomes available, and if it never becomes available, "oh well".

 

[eric the espeon]

While Doug's situation is possible, and parts of it at least would be hard to avoid, I think that so long as we are not heavy handed with squashing discussion of unreleased DW abilities, but have a clear policy to keep them separate from discussion of the standard metagame and from ladders (you could easily add a (dream world) prefix to RMT if there was demand to keep it separate, for example. No need to block discussion on IRC and so long as it's clearly labeled the same goes for forums.) and keeping the various parts of the site responsible for enforcing policy in constant contact should allow us to avoid the problematic repercussions of that scenario. Most users will be happy with keeping unreleased abilities off ladder/out of official tournaments and because of this they will stay out of standard RMTs, C&C contributions, and so on naturally.

The impact of drip feeding in potentially gamechanging additions will mean we would have to think carefully about how to revisit bans, and probably make a "final stable" metagame impossible. Most of the changes on their own are unlikely to have enough of an impact to bring a Pokemon down from Ubers, but together this could be quite different. Maybe a scheduled review of how the newly added Pokemon affect potential suspects would be appropriate?

 

[Alaka]

I agree with SDS that allowing DW abilities prior to their release would cause a sharp break between wifi and simulator play that is unnecessary and would be detrimental to wifi and the ability of new wifiers to spread out to the rest of Smogon.

 

[Firestorm]

I believe this has sufficient support to make a decision on this. 85% of people are in favour of Option C. I don't see that changing drastically. A topic has been created here:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80342

Please continue to weigh in with possible problems and solutions as we have been in this topic.