We need a starting point on this and for now I'm going to ignore Gen 5 pokemon and deal only with Gen 4. Here's is my proposed ban list: Arceus Darkrai Deoxys Deoxys-e Deoxys-f Deoxys-l Dialga Giratina Giratina-o Groudon Ho-oh Kyogre Latias Latios Lugia Manaphy Mew Mewtwo Palkia Rayquaza Shaymin-S Wobbuffet Wynaut You'll notice that this is very similar to the current ban list on the standard ladder for SU except that Garchomp and Salamence aren't on it. I think it is useful to start with them in the game at the beginning of the fifth generation and see how things go. You'll notice that I left the other suspects on the banlist. Obviously that is a subjective determination I made... but given what I know about those guys I think that is probably right where they belong. The only one that had me on the fence somewhat was Latias... and she always felt a little forced in OU because the only way we could get her there was to ban her signature item soul dew. Obviously we can have some debate about the list... but I think this is a good start and helps us all notice how much we agree on the other Pokemon. :) I also want to articulate how I'd like to see us approach the the question of tier changes when it comes to the fifth generation. To start, I want to get some goals in mind. Goal 1: Our game is balanced enough that we enjoy playing it. Goal 2: Our game is stable. This means that it is not subject to the threat of potential tier changes every few months on the OU/Uber border. Goals that I do not have are the following: Not Goal 1: We have a perfect tier list that yields the most balanced game possible. Not Goal 2: We are as inclusive as possible of all Pokemon that can function in OU. The reason that those are "not goals" is that they require immense amounts of testing, time, and frequent tier changes... which interferes with Goal 2. Articuno64's thread here gives some information that I think is very valuable when evaluating the above goals and not goals Ok, now implementation stuff: Assessing Goal 1 is rather simple even though it is a subjective determination. It is one of those "you know it when you see it" sort of things. The clearest example I can come up with from our history of an unbalanced game occurred when DX-S was allowed in the game and the dual screen lead became popular. Substantial consensus existed that it was a problem. In such cases, the necessary action is quite clear... toss out the offender. I don't think it is even necessary to have a protracted test and then a voter selection and then a vote. If it is obvious, just toss. I don't think this really happens much at all... but if it does, then I don't see any reason to waste much time on it. Notice, I could only imagine this happening in relation to a new B/W pokemon that we just obviously mis-tier in the beginning. Assuming we've achieved Goal 1, I'd like to talk about Goal 2. Goal 2 relates to stability and how that is very, very important. I'd contend it is even more important than getting that one or two "wrongfully" banned Pokemon out of the Uber tier. I put "wrongfully" in quotes because, at the border, a lot of the Pokemon could probably go either way and things might be "fine" though they could be very different depending on the tier placement. These choices come down to taste and preference for game style, not a scientific truth or "correct" tiering that can be discovered through experiment or debate. If that can be accepted, then I'd propose that we only consider convening a suspect test when a "disturbance" arises in the standard OU game. Notice, not every disturbance need result in a suspect test... only those disturbances that piss off enough people to revolt against the game as it stands (See Goal 1). Disturbance defined: A disturbance arises when a new discovery, innovation, or Nintendo release dramatically alters the game by substantially improving the effectiveness of a Pokemon in a tier other than Uber. Examples of disturbances that we've seen in recent history include the Yache Garchomp innovation, the expansion of the Salamence movepool to include both Outrage and Draco Meteor, the addition of Bullet Punch to Scizor's options, etc. If we limit our use of suspect tests to cases where some change has occurred and our game is no longer fun, we accomplish the second goal of adding additional stability to the game without sacrificing the first goal of having a "balanced enough" and enjoyable game to play. What do you guys think?