Seems to me like fast attackers have an advantage in this meta because they actually know what type the opponent will be before attacking. For that reason, Scarf users are probably a good idea.
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Protean Palace
- Thread starter scorpdestroyer
- Start date
High speed is very much good as is priority access, but Choice items of any kind are restricting the Pokemon's ability to dynamically alter itself. It'll still be useful for surprise KOs as always, but a Choiced Pokemon can more readily find itself forced into a switch-or-die scenario because it cannot change move, even against Pokemon it would be able to defeat in normal play: Scarfed whatever used Earthquake! Scizor lost 40% of its health on the switch in. Scarfed whatever used Earthquake again, knocking now-Mega Scizor down to about 20% health!... and Mega Scizor uses Aerial Ace and is completely safe from Scarfed whatever's further assaults, and can now simply grind it down with more Aerial Aces if it doesn't switch. Hmmm.
Something worth noting: other than the standard indirect means, just Shadow Sneak+Protect on Shedinja renders it obnoxiously difficult to KO. Expecting a non-Ghost or Dark move? Shadow Sneak! Expecting a non-Fighting move? Protect! And then attack with whatever if they outspeed you and Protect again or whatever.
It's also worth noting that in general you'll actually see fewer examples of Pokemon being able to reliably force each other out on the basis of typing. Sableye, for instance, is just not within Mega Medicham's ability to KO in normal play. In Protean Palace, if for some reason Sableye doesn't just dump Will O Wisp on you, it's considerably more vulnerable (And really, even if it does): if you anticipate a Recover you can handily destroy it with High Jump Kick or Drain Punch, in spite of how thoroughly its innate typing walls Mega Medicham's default STABs. More generally, any Pokemon relying on a combination of a useful defensive typing and a relevant coverage move stops being able to force stuff out on that basis. If Heatran tries to take on a Mega Charizard Y with Fire move/Solarbeam/Dragon Pulse/not Focus Blast (Air Slash or Roost or whatever) and expects to be able to rip it apart with Ancient Power/Stone Edge and wall everything with its typing, Mega Charizard Y can use Dragon Pulse to avoid being vulnerable and then Solarbeam Heatran to death if it did use its Rock move. (Or just Solar Beam more riskily if expecting a Rock move, but Heatran could potentially instagib it with a Fire move in that situation) There's probably better examples out there, but I mostly wanted to get the thought out there, because it's different from OU; it means that situations that in OU would be a switch-or-die sort of dealie can potentially be gotten around with good move choice. (Or bad move choice on the enemy's part)
Something worth noting: other than the standard indirect means, just Shadow Sneak+Protect on Shedinja renders it obnoxiously difficult to KO. Expecting a non-Ghost or Dark move? Shadow Sneak! Expecting a non-Fighting move? Protect! And then attack with whatever if they outspeed you and Protect again or whatever.
It's also worth noting that in general you'll actually see fewer examples of Pokemon being able to reliably force each other out on the basis of typing. Sableye, for instance, is just not within Mega Medicham's ability to KO in normal play. In Protean Palace, if for some reason Sableye doesn't just dump Will O Wisp on you, it's considerably more vulnerable (And really, even if it does): if you anticipate a Recover you can handily destroy it with High Jump Kick or Drain Punch, in spite of how thoroughly its innate typing walls Mega Medicham's default STABs. More generally, any Pokemon relying on a combination of a useful defensive typing and a relevant coverage move stops being able to force stuff out on that basis. If Heatran tries to take on a Mega Charizard Y with Fire move/Solarbeam/Dragon Pulse/not Focus Blast (Air Slash or Roost or whatever) and expects to be able to rip it apart with Ancient Power/Stone Edge and wall everything with its typing, Mega Charizard Y can use Dragon Pulse to avoid being vulnerable and then Solarbeam Heatran to death if it did use its Rock move. (Or just Solar Beam more riskily if expecting a Rock move, but Heatran could potentially instagib it with a Fire move in that situation) There's probably better examples out there, but I mostly wanted to get the thought out there, because it's different from OU; it means that situations that in OU would be a switch-or-die sort of dealie can potentially be gotten around with good move choice. (Or bad move choice on the enemy's part)
Good point, wasn't even thinking about that. I guess priority is the way to go.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
I don't know why you would stay in on a scizor on a team w/o a clear mega w/ scarf EQ- that's literally like asking to get punched in the face. And the argument around it is "if you go up to people asking to get punched in the face and don't live your normal life- then your gonna get punched in the face" the conclusion is of course negative however there are clear logical counter measures.
A: I have no idea what most what you just said is supposed to mean.
B: What I do understand in no way refutes my example.
Some more interesting points.
Since multiple self-healing moves are Normal type, and only one unconditional on-demand healing move thus far is of a type that resists Fighting (Moonlight is Fairy), Fighting moves are in general good moves for punishing attempts to heal. Even Pain Split (Popular on Ghosts) is Normal! Not Pokemon that Rest though, since Rest is Psychic.
Any Pokemon with Levitate and access to an Electric move (there's always Hidden Power Electric if nothing else) can pretend to be Eelektross/Gen IV/V Sableye/Spiritomb. Barring Mold Breaker, nothing can hit you super effectively hooray!
Protect is, oddly enough, more useful than in normal Singles play. Any Pokemon can potentially use it to forcibly bypass their typical weaknesses with no ability for the opponent to respond. Have a double weakness? Switch in on a Pokemon that can pick on it, and then Protect, completely breaking the assumption that they can instagib you, even if they're faster than you. Incidentally, Phantom Force and Shadow Force are even worse than they already were, since Protect now represents a way to block them in spite of the fact that they bypass such effects.
Resistance or immunity to entry hazards through typing is in an interesting position in this meta: Gyarados, for instance, can switch in on Spikes or Toxic Spikes without being affected and then abandon all the actual weaknesses of being part-Flying by using a move, and can do so repeatedly. Pokemon whose innate typing has utility against entry hazards (Immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, immune to Toxic Spikes, or resistant or doubly resistant to Stealth Rock) can potentially overshadow other Pokemon that would normally be useful for their typing but lack the innate protection against entry hazards. If you hate Stealth Rock, you can potentially use Pokemon that aren't Flying typed but have access to a good Flying move in their place if you still want Flying coverage. (Empoleon, Ambipom, Scizor, Persian, Mr. Mime, Hitmontop, and Blaziken for physical options, Samurott and Suicune for Special options) Or if Spikes and Toxic Spikes fill you with dread, you can have a Flying type (Or better yet a Levitating Pokemon but I'm talking types here) that you use more for its non-Flying options. (eg Staraptor gets Close Combat)
Another point I have perhaps alluded to but not stated explicitly: Pokemon whom are held back from running physical or running special on the basis of STAB movepool considerations can get away from that too. Empoleon has reasons to want to run a physical movepool: it gets Defiant and Hone Claws, has several Flying moves that are all physical, and gets access to several decent choices including the always solid Earthquake. But its physical Water STAB options are nothing amazing (no Crabhammer) and its Steel options are worse. (Its best physical Steel move is Steel Wing) Empoleon might find that in Protean Palace it can be a competent physical fighter, or at least competent enough that people can genuinely suffer from assuming your Empoleon is a Special attacker. There may prove to be Pokemon who in normal play would never run physical or never run special who do so in Protean Palace because it was always the lack of synergy in their innate typing and their movepool for that stat that made it less than ideal.
B: What I do understand in no way refutes my example.
Some more interesting points.
Since multiple self-healing moves are Normal type, and only one unconditional on-demand healing move thus far is of a type that resists Fighting (Moonlight is Fairy), Fighting moves are in general good moves for punishing attempts to heal. Even Pain Split (Popular on Ghosts) is Normal! Not Pokemon that Rest though, since Rest is Psychic.
Any Pokemon with Levitate and access to an Electric move (there's always Hidden Power Electric if nothing else) can pretend to be Eelektross/Gen IV/V Sableye/Spiritomb. Barring Mold Breaker, nothing can hit you super effectively hooray!
Protect is, oddly enough, more useful than in normal Singles play. Any Pokemon can potentially use it to forcibly bypass their typical weaknesses with no ability for the opponent to respond. Have a double weakness? Switch in on a Pokemon that can pick on it, and then Protect, completely breaking the assumption that they can instagib you, even if they're faster than you. Incidentally, Phantom Force and Shadow Force are even worse than they already were, since Protect now represents a way to block them in spite of the fact that they bypass such effects.
Resistance or immunity to entry hazards through typing is in an interesting position in this meta: Gyarados, for instance, can switch in on Spikes or Toxic Spikes without being affected and then abandon all the actual weaknesses of being part-Flying by using a move, and can do so repeatedly. Pokemon whose innate typing has utility against entry hazards (Immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, immune to Toxic Spikes, or resistant or doubly resistant to Stealth Rock) can potentially overshadow other Pokemon that would normally be useful for their typing but lack the innate protection against entry hazards. If you hate Stealth Rock, you can potentially use Pokemon that aren't Flying typed but have access to a good Flying move in their place if you still want Flying coverage. (Empoleon, Ambipom, Scizor, Persian, Mr. Mime, Hitmontop, and Blaziken for physical options, Samurott and Suicune for Special options) Or if Spikes and Toxic Spikes fill you with dread, you can have a Flying type (Or better yet a Levitating Pokemon but I'm talking types here) that you use more for its non-Flying options. (eg Staraptor gets Close Combat)
Another point I have perhaps alluded to but not stated explicitly: Pokemon whom are held back from running physical or running special on the basis of STAB movepool considerations can get away from that too. Empoleon has reasons to want to run a physical movepool: it gets Defiant and Hone Claws, has several Flying moves that are all physical, and gets access to several decent choices including the always solid Earthquake. But its physical Water STAB options are nothing amazing (no Crabhammer) and its Steel options are worse. (Its best physical Steel move is Steel Wing) Empoleon might find that in Protean Palace it can be a competent physical fighter, or at least competent enough that people can genuinely suffer from assuming your Empoleon is a Special attacker. There may prove to be Pokemon who in normal play would never run physical or never run special who do so in Protean Palace because it was always the lack of synergy in their innate typing and their movepool for that stat that made it less than ideal.
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Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
basically what I'm saying is (if you didn't get it ://///) staying in on a scizor w/ scarf EQ in this meta when you only do 40% and they can clearly switch type. That's literally staying in on a probably lose/lose situation
That was my point exactly.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Your arguing choice locked mons are dumb because of this, yet I'm saying that's no different then simply having another counter.
I'm saying Choice Scarf comes with additional problems it doesn't have in normal play. If that Mega Scizor instead gets off a Swords Dance and then starts Aerial Ace-ing, it gets the benefits of switching in something immune to the choiced-Earthquake but without having to give up its stat boosts, and without dedicating a moveslot to Baton Pass either. Whereas in normal play Mega Scizor might find it has enough difficulty hurting the whatever that it's ill-advised for it to stay in, and even with a stat boost is best off switching out, giving up the boost. Or it dedicated a moveslot to Baton Pass, which has its own implications.
Plus the Aerial Ace option is not known in advance, where the opponent's team selection is.
That is different, and I wasn't saying choice locked mons are dumb regardless.
EDIT: Also, Roost doesn't work the way I expected it to, so what I said earlier about on-demand recovery moves is wrong. Roost turns you into a Flying type... and that's it, it doesn't turn you into a Normal type. So that's a much more widely accessible way to heal while resisting Fighting.
REVENGE OF THE EDIT: There's some kind of bug going on, either a display error or a behavior error: a Talonflame Roosting was displayed as becoming the Flying type and then took neutral damage from an Earthquake. (Specifically in Inverse Protean Palace)
Plus the Aerial Ace option is not known in advance, where the opponent's team selection is.
That is different, and I wasn't saying choice locked mons are dumb regardless.
EDIT: Also, Roost doesn't work the way I expected it to, so what I said earlier about on-demand recovery moves is wrong. Roost turns you into a Flying type... and that's it, it doesn't turn you into a Normal type. So that's a much more widely accessible way to heal while resisting Fighting.
REVENGE OF THE EDIT: There's some kind of bug going on, either a display error or a behavior error: a Talonflame Roosting was displayed as becoming the Flying type and then took neutral damage from an Earthquake. (Specifically in Inverse Protean Palace)
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Donphan looks fun with powerful head smashes and ice shard
Also Noivern (God damn why is this thing so good in every single OM. Ohh right. Boomburst)
Also Noivern (God damn why is this thing so good in every single OM. Ohh right. Boomburst)
Congratulations to Protean Palace for being selected as the Leader's Choice OM of the Month for July!
scorpdestroyer
scorpdestroyer
Shedinja has two primary moves to get rid of its weaknesses: Protect and Shadow Sneak. Even so, I wouldn't say it's broken because it still dies to any hazards and residual damage. But it could be an anti meta because of all the offensive powerhouses.
Will any pokémon with adaptability + protean get banned?
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save for Mega Beedrill, all the Adaptability users are pretty slow, which isn't a good thing in this metagame. this meta's relatively untested since it sorta died and there wasn't enough testing after ORAS came out, so I won't be banning anything for now unless it really becomes problematic
Doubt it. Sheer Force and Tough Claws gave almost the same amount of power (1.3 and 1.33) and there are quite a number of abusers with either of them (Feraligatr, Mega Metagross, Mega Charizard-X). Also, Mega Launcher and Strong Jaw gave more power than Sheer Force, Tough Claws and Adaptability (Mega Sharpedo or Mega Blastoise comes to mind).
Also, we've got more powerful threats than Adaptability or Sheer Force, like most Extremespeed users (Dragonite, Zygarde, Lucario, Arcanine). Then there is Mega Medicham which got STAB on Fake Out + Bullet Punch.
Shedinja + HP Electric + Air Balloon kinda seems like the best way to go, but even then it dies to status, residual damage and hazards, and is so slow that it can be killed off easily before it even gets off HP Electric. Hidden Power Electric isn't even that good anyway. But with all of the offensive Pokemon in this metagame, status and hazards may not be as common, but still, even with the electric typing Shedinja does not have much going for it.
Huzzah!
So glad to get a real chance to explore this meta.
On-topic: ORAS has arrived since this was originally posted, implications. I wonder how viable Mega Sableye actually is, for instance.
So glad to get a real chance to explore this meta.
On-topic: ORAS has arrived since this was originally posted, implications. I wonder how viable Mega Sableye actually is, for instance.
EV
Banned deucer.
Speaking of Sableye, I think Prankster Pokemon are going to be fun to play with. Sableye loses out on a great typing, but with priority Recover (Normal), Will-O-Wisp (Fire), and Taunt (pure Dark) it can change type to take resisted hits where necessary. Whimsicott can shed its Fairy typing with Leech Seed, turn into a Normal-type thanks to Encore or Substitute, or transform into Flying with Tailwind. Lots of interesting gimmicks to be had with support mons and it will take clever planning and strategy to beat the strong attackers sure to overwhelm this metagame.
On the offensive spectrum certain Pokemon can abuse abilities that formally were quasi useless or too situational to be effective. Aerodactyl for example can run effective sets in its base forme or as a mega.
Ability: Rock Head
- Double-Edge
Ability: Tough Claws
- Aqua Tail
- Iron Head
- Crunch
- Ice Fang
- Fire Fang
- Thunder Fang
- Double-Edge
Even running Roost on the mega to get pure Flying typing isn't wholly out of the question, as you can go "typeless" while using that move and recover lost health from Tough Claws-boosted Double-Edges.
Edit: Dude, Dragonite http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/proteanpalace-245654067
On the offensive spectrum certain Pokemon can abuse abilities that formally were quasi useless or too situational to be effective. Aerodactyl for example can run effective sets in its base forme or as a mega.
Ability: Rock Head
- Double-Edge
Ability: Tough Claws
- Aqua Tail
- Iron Head
- Crunch
- Ice Fang
- Fire Fang
- Thunder Fang
- Double-Edge
Even running Roost on the mega to get pure Flying typing isn't wholly out of the question, as you can go "typeless" while using that move and recover lost health from Tough Claws-boosted Double-Edges.
Edit: Dude, Dragonite http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/proteanpalace-245654067
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If that's the case, couldn't you give shedinja an air balloon, then spam hp electric and be immortal? (Bar smackdown and mold breaker)
I mean sure it has all the same checks that electric type wonderguard mons had in classic hackmons, but jus being mentioned in that same company has to be a bad sign
I mean sure it has all the same checks that electric type wonderguard mons had in classic hackmons, but jus being mentioned in that same company has to be a bad sign
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scorpdestroyer, you may want to edit the OP because it has been confirmed that Curse combined with Protean actually works like this ingame. Is this implemented properly on Showdown?
So when I was creating my team I found that Greninja is banned. I think he should be unbanned since his ability is in effect for everyone so it is better running Torrent. I know Greninja is fast which makes it viable but it does have lower SpA and Attack then many threats in a similar speed tier. Plus he lacks priority too.
On the other hand Blaziken would be seriously overpowered if it came back.
On the other hand Blaziken would be seriously overpowered if it came back.
Some interesting effects:
- Roost should make you typeless, so it's a great recovery for fast mons with poor defensive typed attacks
- Pokemon with great defensive typing but poor offensive typing receive a huge boost, as they can (more) safely switch in (or move second), and their type changes once they move anyways
- Conversely, pokemon with great offensive typing are not buffed very much
- If you have a poor defensive typing, you can get a decent buff, as long as you're fast enough
While trying things out, I found a great Shedinja check.
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fling
- Acrobatics
Flinging a Toxic Orb isn't normally a thought of strategy and can get rid of Sash Shedinjas in one turn. Especially since almost all of them run Shadow Sneak.
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fling
- Acrobatics
Flinging a Toxic Orb isn't normally a thought of strategy and can get rid of Sash Shedinjas in one turn. Especially since almost all of them run Shadow Sneak.
I believe Roost is made to make pure Flying-types into Normal-types, so you won't be typeless.