Protect combos

[ZhengTann]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused. ​

NDA description for Protect here:

The Pokemon erects a barrier that prevents any move that targets the user from taking effect for the turn it is used in. Attacks will not miss when used on the Pokemon but will not have any effect. Attacks targetting the field will succeed as normal. This move fails if used on successive actions, or after Detect, Agility (Evasive), Teleport (Evasive), or the Dodge Command. In a multi-battle, Protect may be shifted to an ally, but it then has zero (0) priority and uses the target's typing, defenses, and stage boosts for purposes of calculating extra energy cost.

Problems arise when Protect is combo'ed with moves that are actually compatible with it, since said moves could possibly extend the protection effect to allies, giving the user a potentially huge team advantage in multiples format. So,

• Should Protect combos extend to shield the whole team where applicable? Why?
• If we want to alter/make explicit any changes, what other options we can explore?
  
• What other aspects of Protect combos that we need to look into?

A few posts have already spoken out reasons and solutions that garnered a lot of support, so before posting, it'd be nice if you just head over there and like the posts you totally agree with, instead of parroting them in this thread.

Progress of discussion will be tracked in the OP.


Fire away ^_^

 

[Birkal]

Protect is probably the best move in the game. It can consistently eat a substitution, makes using combinations difficult, and has a solid priority bracket. Consider all of these things when dealing with Protective moves. In my opinion, Protect shouldn't have a combination type, period. It can give way to priority on some really wonky moves that should have no place having priority (e.g. screens). This move has never sat well with me, so I would prefer if it (and its variants) had no combination type. Probably in the minority here, but consider the implications this move has had on the entire metagame.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Protect should only protect the user and should only be eligible to be comboed with Reflect, Light Screen and Safeguard.

 

[zarator]

Fully agreeing with Birkal. Moves such as Protect and Endure should have CT: None.

 

[ZhengTann]

Just something for thought - initially combos were supposed to be devised to have all properties of both component moves. For example, any combo involving Sucker Punch utterly fails when the opponent does not use a damaging move, simply because that drawback is inherent in Sucker Punch. So I was thinking since Protect is usually combo'ed with screens, we may have to make it explicit that Brick Break is one of the moves that destroys the whole combo, even going as far as to remove Protect's effect on the user, since Brick Break shuts down screens by default. Though I'm not sure how this plays out.

Also, a partial counter-argument to Birks - Protect is not as powerful as people think it is, especially in Singles. EN is a resource far more expendable than HP, true, and this goes both ways - you have to spend upwards of 12 EN just to protect against an attack that cost half of that. Under normal circumstances, using Protect can only help you to gain momentum against a, shall we say, less-than-stellar player (like, someone who uses combos while ordering first and forgot to sub for it). And as Texas pointed out, there are really few moves compatible with Protect, which makes its priority much less than useful.

 

[Dogfish44]

Should Protect combos extend to shield the whole team where applicable? Why?

I've had this ruled both ways, but I prefer the ruling where the Protect is centred on the user whilst the screens are spread across the team. This sort of ruling would also be useful for figuring out combos like "Twister + Rain Dance". But then moves like Soak + Surf take a huge hit, so it's catch-22

If we want to alter/make explicit any changes, what other options we can explore?

I like the idea of breaking one part of the combo breaks the lot - so Brick Break breaks Protect and Screens if combined, whilst Feint would do the same.

 

[ZhengTann]

So far discussion has been pretty much one-dimensional, with reasons from each side already stated bright as day in the thread. So I'm just gonna come up with this initial slate:

Should Protect combos extend Protect's effect to the whole allied team?
Yes (whole team)
No (combo user only)

Any combos retain all properties and drawbacks from component moves. This means Sucker Punch fail if the target does not use damaging attacks, Protect + Reflect/Light Screen can be broken by both Feint and Brick Break, etc.
Yes (enforce this ruling)
No (change this ruling)

Just to clarify, saying yes in the 2nd slate means, in Dogfish's words, "breaking one part of the combo breaks the lot". While I have a feeling this will go through and be written down explicitly in Handbook (sorry for biased voting and stuff), if it turns out that it actually doesn't we might have to bring up on Feedback to hammer out what exactly happens.

48-hour window before voting. If you want to raise any related issues, please do so.

 

[ZhengTann]

Okay it's been more than 48 hours. Note that CT:None for Protect will be added to the final slate:

Should Protect combos be outlawed?
Yes (CT: None)
No (keep as is)

IF Majority on No:

Should Protect combos extend Protect's effect to the whole allied team?
Yes (whole team)
No (combo user only)

Any combos retain all properties and drawbacks from component moves. This means Sucker Punch fail if the target does not use damaging attacks, Protect + Reflect/Light Screen can be broken by both Feint and Brick Break, etc.
Yes (enforce this ruling)
No (change this ruling)

Let's move this on to Voting. Mods may close this thread at their discretion.