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Resource PU Old Gens + Discussion

Discussion in 'PU' started by Akir, Mar 5, 2017.

  1. soulgazer

    soulgazer I FEEL INFINITE
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    what are the best six pokemon in adv pu?
    Sir Kay and Finchinator like this.
  2. Slowbroth

    Slowbroth

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    currently dragonair, minun, aipom, sunflora, combusken, beedrill, shuckle
  3. Rennyjesus

    Rennyjesus

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    Well, the first post does have a VR that u could use to check and make your own opinion based in your style, but I would say IMO:
    * Dragonair: this thing is a little bit too much... it does have enough strength and speed to plow over almost the whole meta, with crucial resistances to Grass, Water, Fire and Electric granting it more than a few chances to set up. Oh, and Shed Skin will help it to avoid being toxic stalled by Shuckle (around 65% to get the toxic off in three or less turns is not too shabby, considering that +2 Adamant Iron Tail can 2HKO Shuckle). So, use it while you can... Oh, and it can even run meme special sets with Agility...

    * Minun: really versatile and blazing fast for meta standards. Can baton pass subs and agility, but also having Twave for supporting slower things like Sunflora and a Fast Encore make it kinda versatile (oh, and while not exactly advised, it can even run Wish and/or Toxic).

    * Shuckle: This thing NEVER dies... you better have a DD Dragonair, a Mystic Water Sealeo, a Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl or something immune to toxic and able to setup (like Beedrill) to beat it, or you will be stalled to death.

    * Beedrill: I personally think that Beedrill is one of the most threatening pokes in this meta... 75 base speed is one of the best in the meta (something like 110 in SM OU, not the best but really important for an offensive poke) and can be surprisingly bulky on the special side, giving it decent chances of getting a SD, a sub or an Agility boost. Oh, and HP Ground + Sludge Bomb is pretty sexy coverage for the tier (even Duskull will hate boosted SBombs with that poison chance).

    * Doduo: I'm sorry guys but I feel Doduo is slightly better than Aipom... sure, Aipom is faster, but it still gets outsped by Minun, Ponyta and ChloroSunflora and Doduo has that now kinda hot base 75 speed with a secondary STAB that allow it to get through a slightly damaged, fully defensive Duskull in two hits... I might be slightly stupid using Focus Punch but I really dislike the move, and Shadow Ball is not that much of an, advantage IMO.

    Sunflora: another highly versatile threat. ChloroFlora hits hard and its temporarily fast and SpDef Flora can deal with a lot of water types (I used it speed creeping non speed Sealeo and, work wonders) while also supportin the team with enough bulk to try Grasswhistle and or Leech Seed.

    Oh, and I dunno about the 6th one... Sealeo and Combusken are both getting some traction, the first as the ideal bulky water and the latter as a poke with really good coverage againt the meta!

    See ya guys
  4. HJAD

    HJAD
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus

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    approved by Akir and galbia

    ANNOUNCEMENT

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    BW PU LINOONE SUSPECT TEST
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    REASONING:

    Linoone has been a staple threat in BW PU for a long time now with its famed Belly Drum set and Choice Banded sets respectively, and since BW PU's representation in team tournaments such as PUPL, it has often been deemed as broken by the cohort of players that played the tier during the 6 week period that they were building for their teams. In particular, Linoone's Belly Drum set with Gluttony and Sitrus Berry (the main set which this post will reference), allowing for the activation of said berry at 50% HP has been considered as the unfair and broken element of Linoone, since at +6, Linoone has the capability of OHKO'ing every offensive threat in the meta thanks to STAB Extreme Speed and its +2 Priority, limiting revenge killing to essentially just Fake Out users such as Purugly, which are unreliable and not powerful enough to take Linoone out in one move. As well as this, Linoone has access to a plethora of coverage moves; notably Seed Bomb, Shadow Claw and Dig, each serving a purpose in terms of specific Pokemon they can take out. For example, Seed Bomb takes out popular Bulky Rock-types such as Graveler, Shadow Claw for Bulky Psychic Types such as Bronzor, Duosion and Beheeyem, which could otherwise be used to tank an Extreme Speed and retaliate back with Neutral STAB Psychic Attacks but also the rare Ghost-types such as Gastly which have the capability of revenge killing Linoone post set up. Dig is neat tech move used to hit the prominent Bulky Steel-types in the tier, the most Popular being Mawile, but also not limited to the likes of Klang, which has gained notoriety and usage in the light of Linoones prominence.

    Linoone's Belly Drum set allows for very little counterplay in the current BW PU metagame, which has frustrated some key players who have played BW PU at a competitive level in the past. Very minimal support is required to get a Belly Drum under its belt, and once fully set up, can use its excellent +2 priority move and its coverage attacks to pick apart any range of teams, with offense often not being able to accommodate a good enough Linoone check, essentially limited to Gastly or weak priority attacks like Fake Out from Purugly as its only way of revenge killing. Balance struggles as well, with almost every Pokemon incapable of taking a +6 Extreme Speed, and with the cohort of Pokemon actually able to take a +6 Extreme Speed, get OHKO'd by Linoones coverage attacks, with the only seemingly viable exception being Machoke, which has its own shortcomings as well. In terms of disadvantages, it can be argued that Linoone isn't the bulkiest Pokemon ever and that it does struggle to set up in a hazard intensive metagame such as BW PU, it may struggle to get a Belly Drum off with only 63% usable HP (after Stealth Rock damage). The main disadvantage is that, should Linoone not sweep after its Belly Drum attempt, it will usually never be able to get another opportunity in, so if the player is capable of forcing it out as it sets up, it's usually a dead weight for the rest of the match.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    HOW THE SUSPECT WILL WORK:

    There will be a cohort of 10 users that will be able to vote in this suspect test. 7 of which have already been determined. These players have either been picked due to their influence on the metagame, past tournament experience/success or by being prominent in the BW PU community.

    COUNCIL:

    Akir (OGPUTL)
    galbia (PUTL)
    HJAD
    Omfuga
    Hogg
    Kushalos
    Quite Quiet

    These players have all earned their privilege to vote in this suspect test from being prominent BW PU players with considerable tournament success in most cases. You can expect that, should you have incredible tournament success in future BW PU Tournaments, or in the BW PU slot in PUPL, that you can work your way onto this council. They will all provide their 2 cents on Linoone when I close the suspect test on Saturday, 13th May.

    That leaves us with 3 users left who will have the opportunity to vote. 2 of which will be determined via a "rotating" council slot. For those of you unfamiliar with the rotating council, myself and Akir will determine 2 voters who have showed excellent knowledge and insight on the BW PU metagame via forum posts in this thread in particular. Any user who has made a conscious effort to determine why Linoone may be broken or balanced may be given the opportunity to vote on suspect test themselves. The posts don't have to be considerably long (as it leads to waffle) but if you show you prowess and insight in the BW PU metagame in this thread, you may be elected to represent the community via this rotating council. I know this is generally a more subjective way of picking voters, so we have decided to run a Suspect Tour as well to determine the last voter.

    SUSPECT TOUR

    The final vote will be determined by the suspect tour will be held at 4 pm EDT (9 pm GMT +1) on Friday, May 12th in the PU Room.
    You will be able to sign up on the day since we are using the Room tour bot thing, so please allow for like 10 minutes or so to guarantee your spot in the suspect tour. The winner will be able to vote on the Linoone suspect test. The metagame that will be played is WITH Linoone allowed. (PS: If the tour is larger than expected, we may bump the amount of people who get votes to both Finalists, but this is unlikely.)

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Happy posting :]
  5. SergioRules

    SergioRules

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    Will the results of this suspect affect the BW PU banlist for the PU Classic or is that to be determined?
  6. HJAD

    HJAD
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    Just as a heads up, the results WILL affect the banlist for BW PU in PU classic. Should Linoone be banned on Saturday, it will be banned for Classic. Should Linoone be voted as not ban worthy, the banlist will stay as it currently is.
    TheHungrySnorlax and Aaronboyer like this.
  7. Akir

    Akir Follow for a free Decorative Glass Cup
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    In preparation for the PU Classic, I will be holding Teambuilding Workshops the Saturday before the tournament for each respective generation. Here is the schedule:

    Rotom-Frost_BW.gif BW2 Workshop: 5/13 @ 3pm EST
    poliwrath.png DPP Workshop: 5/20 @ 3pm EST
    minun.png ADV Workshop: 5/27 @ 3pm EST


    This is a great opportunity to learn how to build for the tier before entering the tournament. Hope to see everyone there!
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  8. Rennyjesus

    Rennyjesus

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    Well guys, I want to post my insight on the Linoone suspect...

    [​IMG]

    I've been playing with almost the same set as Gen6 Linoone:

    Linoone
    Ability: Gluttony
    EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Extreme Speed
    - Seed Bomb
    - Shadow Claw
    - Belly Drum

    While Linoone in Gen 6 usually ran enough speed for Timid Missy and hit her with Shadow Claw before getting burned, Gen 5 PU doesn't have as many highly viable Steel/Ghost types (or at least on the few matches that I've played), which means Linoone can be played easily with next to no speed investment and going with an Adamant nature to get extra power behind his moves. 20 Speed EVS, let Linoone creep base 60 positive natured fully invested (or neutral natured base 70 with full investment) which IMO has been more than enough for the meta, giving it extra bulk to setup against some passive things or not brutally offensive things (it can even withstand moderately strong moves like Arbok's Gunk Shot, Gabite's EQ, and uninvested Duosion Psychic at +0).

    However the thing that make Linoone kinda easy to set up is some Easy support from other pokés, that also made it pretty much blatantly broken on Gen 6, specifically Memento support. Memento, absolutely forces a switch because even the strongest pokés will be unable to deal with Linoone in one hit after getting -2 in each of their offensive stats making Belly Drum almost unavoidable. This support is not even really hard to fit it onto a team when one of the most viable pokés in the meta (Jumpluff) can make a good use of it, after deactivating one enemy with Sleep Powder or dealing decent damage with Flying Gem Acrobatics (hopefully from SD boosted attack). Of course if you like niche/gimmicky mons you can even fit Memento on Muk, Lampent and *grasp* Prankster Cottonee...

    But if you feel those mons are kinda specialized, also Screens support does almost the same thing for Linoone, and it's something that can be done by a plethora of threats like Mr. Mime, Grumpig, Hypno, Meganium and even Golduck, Beheeyem and Duosion if you feel like it... sure, screens might feel a little bit harder to set up than a fast Memento, but it can also work for a late game sweep/clean with an extra teammate like SS Huntail, DD Fraxure, Protect Combusken, or a Simi after Linoone does enough damage on the enemy team to withstand more strong attacks.

    So, why we should keep something that just shits heavily on offensive pokés and make things like Klang or Mawile it's only kinda real answers (or phazing as soon as it enters... I dunno). If you want to also get an old/new view on a really objective post for Gen 6 Linoone, just check this (Thanks Anty!):

    np: PU Stage 4 - October All Over (Throh Remains Banned!)

    Those are just my two cents... See ya!
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
    OrangeGuru, Aaronboyer, HJAD and 5 others like this.
  9. Wenderz

    Wenderz

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    I'd like to bring some thougts about current Gen4 PU. To start, here are another lead which is pretty effective in my opinion:

    [​IMG]
    Banette @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Frisk
    EVs: 228 Atk / 28 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Trick
    - Destiny Bond
    - Shadow Claw
    - Will-O-Wisp

    First off, Ghost-type is extremely useful as it prevents the dreaded Fake Out, Explosion and Dynamic Punch from Machoke to disturb Banette. Choice Scarf allows to outspeed every other non-Scarf lead. Trick completely shutdowns leads such as Onix and to a lesser extent Glalie (be careful against the second one though, as it doesn't mind to much to be locked on Spikes. Will-O-Wisp is the bane of Physically Offensive leads like Purugly, Lopunny and Sneasel (even though the last one still wins if he packs Pursuit). Destiny Bond is your only hope against some other offensive lead like Poliwrath or Lum Berry Machoke which can take two Shadow Claw or OHKO with Payback, respectively. Shadow is the STAB and your only attack which allows you to 2HKO Electabuzz and Sashed Monferno, the 28 Evs in SpD ensures that a LO boosted Thunderbolt won't OHKO you. One of the main reason to use Banette over something like Misdreavus is Frisk, which allows you to scout the item of the opponent, therefore you'll know if the opposing Machoke carries a Lum Berry or Not, if a Purugly packs an Heat Rock...

    Trick Room or non-scarf variant with Shadow Sneak lead could be effective as well, but this version has a lot of good match-ups.

    I have thougt about some other leads like Mr.Mime and Cacturne, but despite having interesting options, they don't have very good match-ups against common leads overall.

    I'll develop later, but I'd like to see some changes (I agree with Lickilicky going to A, but I think Lapras should be way higher than B-) and some other Mon (namely Arbok and Tropius).
  10. HJAD

    HJAD
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    approved by Akir and galbia
    Hello,

    We have decided to end the BW PU Linoone Suspect Test,

    LINOONE IS BANNED FROM BW PU

    6 out of the 7 specified council members have voted, with CrazyStevy making it onto the vote as well with his victory in the BW PU Suspect Tour. Rennyjesus also made it onto the rotating council as well, however, his vote will not be enough to change to result in the proceedings. If you want to send me your reasoning for Ban / No Ban for sake of completeness, feel free you've earned it.

    Votes=8
    BAN=8

    HJAD BAN Reasoning (open)


    I'm of the personal opinion that Linoone is way too hard to check in the BW PU metagame. What really tips it over the edge for me is the lack of Normal Resists which can OHKO back, which is literally Machoke, and that's it. I think Klinklang can win 1v1 but you need a good chunk of damage as Linoone sets up, which might not always be within your power, given the amazing support at its disposal in terms of Jumpluff, which synergises so perfectly. Due to team building requirements, usually, your normal check impedes with your flying check, one of which Jumpluff can put to sleep, chip at with U-Turn damage, or can begin a Linoone BD imminently vs anything it choses with Memento. Its so easy to get Linoone a belly drum, that essentially the argument of putting offensive pressure on it completely fails to exist, and along with its passable bulk, stab +2 prio cleaning move and great array of coverages, its wayy too good for BW PU and should be banned.



    Akir BAN Reasoning (open)



    I have yet to hear a single argument against banning it, and after watching the PUPL2 replays it really is too strong for the tier. Many matches were decided by Linoone setting up, and this stays true for my own personal experience in the tier as well. The lack of strong answers to it that aren't beaten by random coverage is very low, and the Espeed buff to +2 priority means that it is almost impossible to revenge kill with what the tier has to offer.

    The only solid way to beat Linoone is to not let Linoone set up, which isn't always in your power to do. So, I think the tier would be healthier without.



    Omfuga BAN Reasoning (open)


    While CB linoone is a stable and powerful anti-offense pokemon, the wallbreaking capabilities and sweeping potential of the belly drum set pushes linoone over the edge. Almost no offensive pokemon in the tier are capable of standing up to a +6 extreme speed, and Linoone's passable bulk means it can set up on a plethora of PU threats such as zebstrika, rotom-f, jumpluff, and even CB linoone. this paired with the fact that it can OHKO almost all offensive and defensive threats at +6, makes linoone difficult to check. There is some counter play to linoone; defensive torterra can tank a +6 hit and KO linoone back. Scarf rampardos can take an espeed with no rocks up and revenge with superpower. Klang and lairon can take one hit (assuming dig-less) and hit linoone hard back. However, there aren't a lot of common options in teambuilding to reliably cover linoone. Linoone forces overly conservative building and playing because it's too difficult to check.



    Hogg BAN Reasoning (open)


    While I definitely made no secret of my dislike of Linoone last PUPL, I decided to test again a fair bit when I heard about this suspect. My opinion remains unchanged. The biggest problem is that almost everything that can theoretically check Linoone completely fails to do so in practice against a competent player when you add in something as simple as Spikes support. Soft answers like Lairon and defensive Machoke just don't cut it once Spikes hit the field. Barring a very small handful of reliable lategame checks held in reserve (sash MG mons, RestTalk Klang, Gastly), it pretty much always has the ability to just win in a way that no other sweeper in the tier can boast.

    I can't see the tier doing anything but improving with Linoone gone. Basically, BAN this weasel.



    Kushalos BAN Reasoning (open)


    Too strong for the tier, it can set up fairly easily with a bit of support and ohko almost anything except faster ghosts after a BD

    Ban



    Quite Quiet BAN Reasoning (open)


    The thing I feel the most about Linoone is how ridiculously little support it needs to function. You only need something to weaken the few Pokemon that can tank a +6 espeed (tort/machoke/mawile/etc) and then it will easily sweep teams from there. Not to mention most of the stuff that it can't OHKO, beside Machoke, doesn't OHKO back so it'll get 2 hits in sometimes too. It also sets up on half the tier easily if full, and can still set up on a good portion of it even weakened. And it's not like it's required to set up to be useful either, since it will always be able to function as a capable revenge killer thanks to Extremespeed, so there's never a game where it will be completely useless. With how little risk, and how much reward there is to using Linoone I don't think it's a healthy Pokemon to keep in the tier.

    ban



    CrazyStevy BAN Reasoning (open)


    im going with straight ban



    reason= i got swept plenty of times lol


    Rennyjesus BAN Reasoning (open)


    Linoone has demonstrated to be just as unhealty as it was in Gen 6 Just by the virtue of how easy is to give it the proper support (Memento or Screens) from highly viable mons (Jump, Mime, Pig) to set up a Drum and sweep through Offense and even bulky teams, only having a few non especially viable answers like Eviolite Klang and healthy Machoke. So... BAN plz



    NO BAN = 0

    Obvious supermajority here.

    Thanks to all of the Council that have voted, your guys responses have been great, and I would suggest reading them through if you don't neccesarily understand why Linoone has been banned. On a personal note, I will be removing Linoone from all the resources in the BW PU resource thread, feel free to post your post-linoone teams here in the Old Gens Thread, I as well as many others will be super interested to see what you guys can build now that one of the biggest strains on building has been removed from the tier!

    Bye Linoone. [​IMG]

    Edit: Also updated the BW PU Resource Thread
    Changes: Linoone removed from Threatlist, all sample teams have been removed that included Linoone, and Linoone from the Speed Tiers have also been removed.
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  11. Pearl

    Pearl Love Galore
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    Can we ban Dragonair in ADV now
  12. Rennyjesus

    Rennyjesus

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    Messages:
    414
    Well, for the sake of completeness:

    Linoone has demonstrated to be just as unhealty as it was in Gen 6 Just by the virtue of how easy is to give it the proper support (Memento or Screens) from highly viable mons (Jump, Mime, Pig) to set up a Drum and sweep through Offense and even bulky teams, only having a few non especially viable answers like Eviolite Klang and healthy Machoke. So... BAN plz

    See ya guys and thanks for the opportunity! :3
  13. Slowbroth

    Slowbroth

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    151
    wanted to bring back some more adv pu discussion, and also talk about dragonair.

    things that have been pretty good:

    [​IMG] Dunsparce [​IMG] : More people have been using Dunsparce as of late, namely due to its specially defensive curse resttalk set, which boasts respectable special bulk, decent offensive presence, and is very similar to Muk's curse resttalk set in ORAS PU. Dunsparce is fairly tough to take down without a dedicated physical wallbreaker or sturdy normal resist or ghost, which teammates can help support Dunspace by removing, examples being Houndour Pursuit trapping Duskull or pairing Dunsparce with things like Marshtomp to prevent Combusken from powering through you. in addition, its other sets are also good (the twave hax sets or calm mind sets), which give Dunsparce a good level of versatility.

    [​IMG] Yanma [​IMG] : Yanma is sick. As a late game cleaner, facilitated by its ability in Speed Boost, Yanma excels in being able to utilitze Liechi + Sub + Reversal sets to force the opponent to attack its sub, then subbing down to liechi range and KO practically anything not named Shuckle, Koffing, Duskull or Marshtomp. in essense yanma is great vs the plethora of frail offensive teams in the meta right now as there aren't too many notable defensive things that flat out wall it. ofc there are also other things like hypnosis, specially oriented sets which are ok but not as good as reversal imo. all in all, you definitely need to play carefully around yanma otherwise it may very well sweep you.

    [​IMG] Sealeo[​IMG] : One of the best bulky waters in the tier atm, Sealeo is a nice splashable Pokemon that fits on a lot teams due to its ability to check Dragonair, Fires (w/ Thick Fat), Grounds/Rocks and being a good general pivot. one of the things i like most about sealeo is the fact that it has a bunch of useful support options in encore, roar and yawn and can utilize some physical coverage moves like eq and rock slide. this gives it a lot of tools to support the team well and makes Sealeo a versatile mon. lemme also reiterate how it checks the most centralizing mon in the tier in Dragonair (takes like 40 from +1 Double-Edge and KOs back w/ Ice Beam), although special sets can somewhat lure it but i havent really seen that too much.

    [​IMG] Mightyena[​IMG] : I was actually quite skeptical about Yena previously, but it's fared pretty well so far in this meta. The physically defensive set coupled with Intimidate makes yena fairly tanky and can pivot into things like unboosted Dragonair, Koffing and support Marshtomp. It's also one of three clerics in the tier. Although I enjoy running Toxic / Protect / Heal Bell / Crunch, I've also seen things like Taunt, Roar and Yawn so it has some different useful stuff it can run, like Sealeo. CB is ok, but lets be real, yena's real niche here is the defensive heal bell set and its really effective to have on teams due to the plethora of mons running Toxic and a good amount of mons running Rest.

    [​IMG] Doduo[​IMG] : Doduo is another one of those mons that doesn't look or sound amazing until you look at its place in the meta, with the highest attack stat out of all normal types in 85 and a solid speed stat in base 75. its powerful dual stab combo paired with Choice Band makes Doduo extremely hard to switch into; furthermore, Doduo is one of the best options for priority now that Furret is gone. In addition to its CB set, its Flail set is a lethal late game sweeper if opposing priority is removed, as STAB base 200 power will dent or KO anything esp if things are weakened late game. this could easily go A+ imo

    [​IMG] Omanyte[​IMG] : I've faced Omanyte as well as used it myself a bunch, and it's quite good. It's one of the best normal resists in the tier, better than Rhyhorn even, switching into Aipom, Doduo and unboosted Dragonair and can force things out while setting up Spikes or attacking with a decent base 90 spatt stat even if its uninvested. It's not hard to give support either, with Electrics and Grasses being fairly easy to check with something like Sunflora or Beedrill or Dustox. I've also faced surprise offensive rain dance sets that have caught me off guard and swept me so theres that.

    things that havent been so good:

    [​IMG] seaking[​IMG] : i expected this to really shine in the new meta but it hasnt because the meta needs more bulky waters than offensive waters and seaking just isn't bulky. megahorn is a nice niche to hit spdef grasses, but seaking is just in an awkward speed tier, isn't even that powerful if rain isnt up, and is tough to justify on teams over sealeo atm.

    [​IMG] sunflora[​IMG] : for whatever reason, sunflora also has been a dissapointment. grass resists are everywhere, whether they are offensive checks or defensive checks, and this is mainly due to the increase in beedrill and combusken and dragonair (even yanma and doduo have somewhat of an influence). giga drain is easy to switch into, and its coverage Hidden Power Fire or Ice usually doesnt threaten much. sunflora almost never finds time to set up growth, so the best it can usually do is leech seed or toxic something on the switch, or try to do some damage with its SunnyBeam set. sunflora is also really susceptible to toxic which hinders its ability to be a fantastic special wall.

    [​IMG] delibird[​IMG] : delibird is another one of those pokemon that's kinda hard to fit on teams. although its offensive presence isnt bad, its defensive presence is and its only utility is Rapid Spin. also if you look at A- rank right now, Delibird is probably not on par with Pokemon like Yanma, Gastly and Corsola all of which manage to find their ways on teams pretty often, so B+ makes a lot more sense. in addition, delibird speed ties with Beedrill, Doduo and Anorith, all of which can KO it with their stab moves, although Delibird can do the same, so there's a lot of 50 / 50s that delibird usually doesn't want to face.

    -

    [​IMG] dragonair: so i've recently set up a poll in the PU room on showdown to see whether or not people really want this thing gone. the poll will hopefully be up for the next few days and whichever option is more popular is what will happen to dragonair for the pu classic tour. personally tho i think it's a nice defining mon in the tier that obviously needs to be prepared for like every other S rank mon. however i do understand that it is really difficult to check once it has set up Dragon Dances (which is not hard to do usually). so i need the community's inputs on the forum as well as their votes to see what should be done (for the tour and after the tour). i don't want to suspect it obviously because there's the pu classic going on right now, and i also don't want to quickban it because it wouldn't be fair to those that don't want it gone (and ik theres a good amount of people that dont want it gone), so yea.
  14. Solar Flare

    Solar Flare

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
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    Caution, big post coming... I'm not sure if this is 100% so make sure you point out something you think might be wrong, thanks!

    The new meta: Winners and losers
    This meta has been a confusing one to build for (even for me personally), and with the huge changes to the metagame, I figured it would be a good idea to list out some of the major winners and losers of the shift from usage to viability tiering.

    The Winners:
    Ice Types
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    With the sudden lack of many bulky water types, Ice types have suddenly found themselves quite some nice spots in the metagame, most notably Smoochum Sealeo (although Snorunt is doing quite alright as well). Sealeo is a great example of a zero to hero in the current metagame, going from an arguably awful pick over common waters like Seadra, Crawdaunt, and Wailord to being a shining example of what a bulky water in the current metagame should be. It also has thick fat, which makes it not only good for walling specially oriented fire types (notably Quilava, Houndour, and Ponyta), but fantastic at walling its fellow ice types, Sealeo has found itself in its prime at the top of A rank.

    Smoochum is also a very well off pokemon currently, as its not only the best wallbreaking psychic around (although there isn't a lot of competition for that role) its also the best wallbreaking Ice type the meta has. Boasting quite high 85 Special Attack, as well as a decent wallbreaking speed tier of 65, Smoochum can run through balance teams if left unchecked. Sitting in B+, this isn't a pokemon to take lightly.

    Snorunt, although not improving greatly, did improve somewhat with the new meta. Its access to Spikes as well as icy wind allows it to be a good anti-lead for many offense teams. While its stats are pitiful, sitting at 50 across the board, it still does a nice job of compressing the roles of spike lead and speed control for those pesky Aipom and Minun leads.

    Dragonair (The best Dragonair is a band Dragonair)
    [​IMG]

    Despite the meta's shift towards ice types, Dragonair has found itself not just better in this meta, but the best it has been in the entire lifespan of the meta. With decent overall bulk, and great speed and offensive stats on both sides of the spectrum, Dragonair can do it all. Not to mention its fantastic ability Shed Skin which allows rest sets to easily shrug off self induced sleep as well as D-Dance sets being able to set up on common Will-o users like Duskull and Koffing (if they don't have haze). Dragonair practically drives the meta currently thanks to its power, versatility, and bulk which lets it fill almost any role it wants. Sitting at the top of S, Dragonair is a mon that absolutely requires Checking.

    Beedrill
    [​IMG]

    Beedrill has a lot of desirable traits in the current metagame. For one, its at a great speed tier of 75 allowing it to outspeed a lot of the slower metagame. Two, it has great attack at 80 and good special bulk with 65 hp and 80 special defense. Finally, it has Swords Dance as well as great poison stab in Sludge Bomb, as well as coverage in Brick Break. This allows it to dent a huge selection of the metagame with ease. It also has Baton Pass that allows it to pass its Swords Dance boosts or even Agility boosts. Sitting in the middle of A+, beedrill is a huge threat in the current metagame.

    The Losers:

    Stall as a whole
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Stall was a great option last meta, with an array of mons you could choose from ranging from wincons like Tropius to extra thick walls like Lickitung. However, many of the well enjoyed picks for Stall (including Diglett :[ rip) were taken from the tier and now its left as a shell of its former self. Some of meta's best new mons like Dunsparce and Yanma can double as Stall Breakers making it very difficult for stall to get its foot through the door. Additionally, Stalls lack of win conditions outside of Dunsparce and Parasect, both of which have a weakness to the very common Combusken, make it very difficult to keep the ball rolling once it does. Overall, this team archetype is what it used to be.

    Fire Types
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    While two of these fire types specifically have actually risen in viability, overall the type as a whole has suffered in the current meta. For one, although ice types are popular, the most popular ice type Sealeo doubles as a fire check thanks to its resistance to fire and stab Surf. Another nail in the coffin is the lack of Grass Types and Bug Types for fires to check. With the only major grass type left being Sunflora, Fires are way less desirable for teams in general. Not to mention that Yanma actually sets up endrev against Quilava and Houndour making them way less useful to keep on the team. Ponyta got the best treatment though, for its sky high 90 speed makes it way less prone to the issues that plague Quilava and Houndour. Also notable is that Combusken, despite being a fire type, is flourishing in the current metagame, though that is mostly due to its amazingly rare typing and awesome combo of endure and reversal.

    Grass Types (or really just Sunflora)
    [​IMG]

    Grass types are suffering for 3 notable reasons. 1, they are weak to two of the best Mons in the current metagame Combusken and Beedrill. 2, They usually lack a lot of coverage options and are forced to pick their poison of not hitting Dragonair or not hitting Beedrill (for example.) Finally, theres only 2 real notable grass types left after the Shift. However, the two main grasses left aren't exactly bad per se. Lombre doubles as a water type, and gets used as such. Stab Hydro Pump, Grass coverage for Sealeo and Marshtomp, and Ice Beam to hit Dragonair when its stab does not makes Lombre an incredible choice in the current meta, however it still has dropped from B+/A- to B in viability, which is something to consider. Sunflora on the other hand suffers from a shallow offensive movepool and mediocre defensive typing in the current metagame mostly due to Beedrill, Combusken, Sealeo, and even Gastly if you really want to argue for it make Sunflora's bulky sets not as appealing. Secondly, the choice between HP Ice and HP Fire has grown more difficult to make, as there are many mons that will take advantage of poor Sunflora's coverage to set up and sweep entire teams (Beedrill notably) making offensive worse. While overall it hasn't drastically dropped in viability, its still quite notable as Sunflora isn't as splashable anymore (consider this a nomination for A- at least).

    Other notable examples:


    Dunsparce - Win Dunsparce's typing and abilities allow it to Function fantastically as a late game cleaner.

    Yanma - Win Yanma's Sub Reversal set. Click Sub, get Liechi, click Reversal. Its really good, hard to check.

    Mightyena - Win 70/70/60 bulk with intimidate and a decent support movepool makes Yena a great choice for a wall.

    Doduo - Win 2 sets: CB Wallbreaker with 85 attack, EndSalac Flail with 75 speed.

    Duskull - Lose Ghost coverage is everywhere, and its bulk hasn't really gotten better. Physical attackers like Busken and Nair don't fear it and Special Attackers actually threaten it.

    Ivysaur - Lose This thing's main niche was charm walling all forms of Machoke in the meta. However, thats gone now so why is this still ranked higher than Gloom?
  15. Aaronboyer

    Aaronboyer formerly Boyeraj17

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    175
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Empire Of The Sun v2.0 (Gen 3 Sun HO)
    Team Importable (open)

    Onix @ Focus Band
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Rock Slide
    - Sunny Day
    - Explosion
    - Taunt

    Sunflora @ Petaya Berry
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
    - Substitute
    - Sunny Day
    - Solar Beam
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Weepinbell @ Poison Barb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    IVs: 30 HP / 30 Atk / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
    - Swords Dance
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    - Sunny Day

    Ponyta @ Charcoal
    Ability: Flash Fire
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Sunny Day
    - Fire Blast
    - Solar Beam
    - Hidden Power [Ground]

    Gloom @ Leftovers
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
    - Sunny Day
    - Solar Beam
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Sleep Powder

    Yanma @ Liechi Berry
    Ability: Speed Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Substitute
    - Reversal
    - Aerial Ace
    - Shadow Ball

    Description (open)
    So after Tropius left the tier I wanted to update my Empire of the Sun team to match the remaining Pokemon after the Gen 3 PU "purge". I'm satisfied with the end product. Weepinbell is the new Physical Chlorophyll abuser with SD Sludge Bomb, Gloom and Sunflora utilize Solarbeam + HP, Ponyta is for Flash Fire, Onix is there for initial Sun set-up, and Yanma is there to clean teams late game. Overall, I'm impressed with how successful the team has been, and it just goes to show that not every good Gen 3 team has to use S or A+ mons.

    Replays (open)


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]For Whom The Chimecho Tolls (Gen 4 TR Offense)
    Team Importable (open)

    Solrock @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Brave Nature
    - Trick Room
    - Explosion
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge

    Octillery @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sniper
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Water Spout
    - Surf
    - Energy Ball
    - Ice Beam

    Rampardos @ Life Orb
    Ability: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
    Brave Nature
    - Head Smash
    - Earthquake
    - Thunder Punch
    - Fire Punch

    Chimecho @ Kasib Berry
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Trick Room
    - Healing Wish
    - Psychic
    - Hypnosis

    Glaceon @ Life Orb
    Ability: Snow Cloak
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA
    - Ice Beam
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Water Pulse

    Kecleon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Color Change
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    - Trick Room
    - Aqua Tail
    - Return
    - Recover

    Description (open)
    This fun team uses Chimecho, a Pokemon that is currently unranked on the Gen 4 VR. Chimecho has an almost unique combination of Trick Room and Healing Wish, which can prove invaluable to teammates like Octillery that needs 100% health to fully utilize Water Spout. Solrock is the initial TR setter, Kecleon is a backup TR setter that can surprise Rhydon with Aqua Tail, and Octillery, Rampardos, and Glaceon are TR abusers.



    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Another Boring Sun Team (Gen 5 Sun Offense)
    Team Importable (open)

    Onix @ Heat Rock
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Sunny Day
    - Explosion
    - Taunt

    Victreebel @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Solar Beam
    - Weather Ball
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Growth

    Shiftry @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Sucker Punch
    - Seed Bomb
    - Nature Power

    Volbeat @ Heat Rock
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Sunny Day
    - U-turn
    - Encore
    - Thunder Wave

    Rapidash @ Life Orb
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Flare Blitz
    - Wild Charge
    - Drill Run
    - Morning Sun

    Rotom-Frost @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Blizzard
    - Trick

    Description (open)
    This rendition includes standard Lead Onix, Prankster Volbeat, Victreebel and Shiftry as abusers, Rapidash for Flash Fire, and most importantly, Rotom-Frost as speed control for when Sun is down and a check to Scarf Cloud Nine Golduck. Other neat things for this team include the introduction of Heat Rock, which is huge, and Nature Power on Shiftry, which in Gen 5 turns into Earthquake. The team is quite solid and is a team I'm sure you'll enjoy.

    Replay (open)


    I'd also like to submit the last team as a sample for Gen 5. Thanks for reading.
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  16. Solar Flare

    Solar Flare

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    57
    A batch of nominations for the ADV VR incoming!

    Meditite from C+ to B
    [​IMG]

    At first glance, Meditite is just a slower frailer Combusken without that godlike fire/fighting typing or the sick mixed attacking stats to back it up. HOWEVER, somet things Meditite has over Combusken is access to Shadow Ball, Huge Power, and the ability to reliably run adamant on EndRev sets. Meditite, due to these major factors, actually cleans way easier than Combusken since even resists get KO'd after a bulk up.
    The set (open)

    Meditite @ Salac Berry
    Ability: Huge Power
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Endure
    - Bulk Up
    - Reversal
    - Shadow Ball

    Some rather impressive calcs (open)
    +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Meditite Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 206-243 (84.4 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Meditite Reversal (200 BP) vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Marshtomp: 482-568 (142.1 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Meditite Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gloom: 358-422 (110.4 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Meditite Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Beedrill: 290-342 (106.6 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Meditite Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Duskull: 222-262 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

    The major things holding this set back is, once again, the lack of a good special stat to combo with its great physical attacking potential. This can cause mons like Koffing, Parasect, and other bulky resists to only get 2HKO'd by Meditite. However, its huge offensive presence physically makes it one of the best EndRev users in the tier.

    Ivysaur and Gloom swap places
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ivysaur's main niche in the last metagame was checking Machoke thanks to its access to Charm. However, with Machoke being gone its charm set is way less usable and is rarely seen on teams. On the other hand, Gloom's superior overall bulk, special attack, and ability to run both bulky and sunny day sweeper sets makes it the way more viable choice in the current metagame.

    Ditto from D to C-
    [​IMG]
    Ditto is an interesting mon in the current metagame. Kinda cool, actually. It looks like not a lot on its own, although with access to metal powder gives it some really nice bulk. For example:
    +6 252+ Atk Dragonair Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metal Powder Ditto: 236-278 (78.6 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    This makes Ditto one of the better answers to physical sweepers like Dragonair, turning max setup threats into 50/50 situations (which can usually lead to a complete sweep if used correctly). Not only that, but Ditto has access to Limber making it a good switchin for the dreaded dunsparce before some curses (as you outslow it and transform AFTER the body slam) or any mons that commonly use T-Wave like bulky Dragonair.
    the set (open)

    Ditto @ Metal Powder
    Ability: Limber
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 3 Spe
    - Transform
    The IVs allow Ditto to use HP Ground when copying Dragonair. You can also use IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 2 Spe for Hidden Power Fighting. The minimum speed allows Ditto to guarantee transform on any mon except univested rhyhorn. This is a good thing, as its bulk disappears after transform making it turn back into the frail blob it is. This also allows it to guarantee a transform on the majority of physical attackers even when they set up a substitute. This is definitely a great niche for a mon to have in such a setup heavy metagame.
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
    iRebel, therealslap, TJ and 3 others like this.
  17. hydreigon6497

    hydreigon6497

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1
    I actually am interested in ADV PU. Even built a team as well. Now I really wanna try it out :p
  18. Megazard

    Megazard Practically Useless
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    4,262
    adv stuff yay

    Trapinch C+ to B: This mon is just fine at removing things, it's certainly not Diglett level mostly bc u don't have fast CB Sludge Bomb but it can still remove a ton of stuff with relative ease while also having one of the strongest quick attacks in the meta (lol). It'll pretty much always trap one thing minimum per matchup, even if it's something like Rhyhorn locked into rock slide, and its bulk could be a lot worse. It's just really consistent and I don't see any reason for it to be this low but yeah can't say much outside of listing merits.

    Delibird A- to B+: Delibird kinda sucks and I'm tempted to nom it lower. Way too many things check it hard, it's prediction reliant, and it's not even terribly strong. This just isn't an effective wallbreaker and spin, while neat to be able to fit onto something (unless I'm the only one?), can't keep it this high.

    Lombre B+ to A-: Sunflora is sorta meh but RD Lombre is a massive threat and support's stayed solid-ish ig but mostly RD is just very underrated. Not much can take a Rain boosted Hydro Pump plus you have the option of going for boosting berries, it can set up relatively easy, and practically nothing is going to OHKO this outside of a few of the CB mons. It's just nice to have a sweeper that isn't dropping its HP significantly and leaving itself more open for a Quick Attack or two.

    Also maybe poliwag up? I've never used it myself but I know people like Pearl have been swearing by it and C+ really does feel like a significant power drop from the B ranks with stuff like Ledian.
    Aaronboyer, TJ, Slowbroth and 3 others like this.
  19. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Programmeris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,352
    I'll do some DPP nominations.

    Electabuzz A- to A. LO EBuzz is one of the hardest Pokemon in the tier to switch into because of its great speed and coverage. Electric STAB is great in general due to the lack of good Ground- and Grass-types in the tier. HP Grass OHKOes Rhydon and does a ton to Marowak, and it's got Psychic and Focus Blast for coverage against Victreebel/Muk/Cacturne/Lickilicky/other Electrics. Sub, Toxic, and Charge Beam are all cool options as well. (Side note, the set rankings say LO Mixed, but there's no reason for it to go mixed here since there's no Chansey.)

    Mr. Mime B+ to A-. Mainly because it's possibly the best Scarf user in the tier right now, although its other sets are fine too.

    Magmar unranked to B. I used this in a couple matches early on in the tier's history and it's basically a slightly slower, Fire-type Electabuzz. It's got fantastic coverage in Fire Blast / Psychic / Focus Blast / HP Grass and much higher SpA than Rapidash or Monferno. It doesn't speed tie with Rapidash/Kadabra/Ebuzz like Rapidash does, and it lacks Rapidash's defensive utility from Morning Sun and Flash Fire, but it's just so much harder to switch into. Fire Blast + Psychic KOes Poliwrath, and Fire Blast + HP Grass KOes Golduck, so teams that are relying on those guys as their Fire checks are in trouble. You could probably even go HP Electric over HP Grass to OHKO Pelipper if you're willing to risk Focus Blast's accuracy against Rhydon.

    Quagsire B+ to B-. Haven't seen this in a long time...maybe ever? The only thing it really does better than Gastrodon is be a super bulky physical wall, but there's just not much need for that role in this meta.

    Ampharos and Politoed seem very out of place in C+ (I'd guess B+ for Amphy and B for Politoed) but I haven't actually used them in PU so idk.
  20. Wenderz

    Wenderz

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2016
    Messages:
    133
    Some other nominations about DPP PU:

    Lapras B- to B/B+: The Modest Choice Specs variant is extremely dangerous, as the only ones which can take it "reliably" are Spdef Lickilicky and Kecleon, Defensive Muk isn't a good answer since it can be 2HKOed after SR damage and struggles to do anything back to Lapras, DD Lapras is a very good sweeper too thanks to his raw bulk which let it stomach Vacuum Wave from LO Poliwrath rather easily and smash it with Zen headbutt,, it doesn't have many defensive answer neither and can carry Subsitute to avoid Toxic and Will-O-Wisp from the like of Gastrodon, Sableye and Misdreavus. A Curse set is viable too, despite the popularity of Rhydon, Victeebrel and Poliwrath, even though the former two can lose depending of their variant, especially if Lapras packs Ice Shard.

    Lickilicky A- to A+: In all the DPP PU, Lickilicky is probably the most viable pokemon in the DPP NU environement, and overall I think it's one of the best Mon in both metagame. Due to his movepool and stats, Lickilicky is able to fulfill nearly every task. Choice Band variant is almost like CB Rhydon, which means without any GSI, Dusclops is the only reliable answer since Misdreavus and Sableye can be 2HKOed by Power Whip, Probopass is annihilate by EQ and everything else by STAB Explosion, SubSD variant is very powerful as well and allows to beat Ghosts pretty easily. Defensively, Lickilicky is by far the best Wish support in the metagame, SpDef variant is a solid check/counter to every Special attacker in the tier not named Poliwrath, while Physical defensive variant provide a fairly good answer to Rhydon, Purugly, Rapidash... Curse can work well too once opponent's Fighting types are gone. There's a lot of set that Lickilicky can run like Mixed, Belly Drum or SubPunch, depending of what you need. Lickilicky's versality brings it easily on the same level than Top Tiers like Victeebrel, Purugly or Kadabra in my opinion.

    Muk A+ to S : I agree with this one, Muk has several check but no true counter, that's the case of a bunch of Pokemon in the metagame like Rhydon, Poliwrath, Victeebrel, Lickilicky, Rampardos... but Muk is one of the most metagame defining Pokemon and a staple to every team archetype. Just like Lickilicky, it can fulfill a huge amount of task thanks to his movepool and stats. I won't developp much more since someone already covered it earlier.

    Otherwise, I agree with everything Honko said above.

    Now I'm going to nominate current unranked Mons:

    Arbok to C : His movepool allows it to deal with a large amount of Pokemon: Seed Bomb get rid of Rhydon, Relicanth and is useful against Poliwrath, when you don't want to rely on Gunk Shot's shaky accuracy, Earthquake helps against Muk, Metang and Probopass, Crunch works well against Misdreavus, Sucker Punch against Kadabra and Mr.Mime, Rock Slide against Golbat... Arbok is gifted with Intimidate which makes him a decent Offensive check to Victeebrel and Muk. Unfortunately, his average attack forces him to rely on Gunk miss and he can't do much against Sableye and Armaldo outside of using Switcheroo.

    Tropius to C : Despite his weaknesses, Physically Defensive Tropius can act as a check to non Sludge Bomb Victeebrel, Purugly...His Attack stat is certainly low, but a DD Set is still usable, Grass-Type being a very good STAB in PU, even though such as Set needs that opponent's defensive Pokemon are weakened. Swords Dance and Sunny Day set are mostly outclassed by Victeebrel, but Tropius's better bulk and access to Earthquake and Solar Power can give him a place in Sunny Day's team.

    Sudowoodo to C : It isn't as powerful as Rhydon, Relicanth or Rampardos nor as useful as Armaldo, but having Wood Hammer without recoil, Sucker Punch and Explosion in his arsenal is enough to justify his use.

    Granbull to C+ : Intimidate make Granbull a pretty good pivot and cleric with Heal Bell, while Quick Feet turns him into a potential Sweeper with very good option like Crunch, Close Combat or Bulk Up. He is also the strongest Normal Physical Sweeper in PU if you forget Regigigas and Slaking.

    Banette to C- : I already covered it on my previous post, this things works very well as an anti-lead.

    Octillery to C: Some people already talked about it in the beginning of the threats, this things hits quite hard, as a very good movepool and a very strong Water Spout.

    There are some other Mon which may be interesting, like Volbeat, Illumise, Walrein... but it seems that they are outclassed for the most part...
    Aaronboyer, Akir, Cheryl. and 4 others like this.
  21. Akir

    Akir Follow for a free Decorative Glass Cup
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2014
    Messages:
    504
    So with the Gen4 PU PU Classic coming very soon, I was thinking of ways to fully explain what the Gen4 PU metagame looks like. It has changed a lot since the tournament ended, and stands as the most difficult of the PU Oldgens to get started in. So...why not just explain it? So here we go:

    Gen4 PU Analysis (in broad strokes)

    • The concept of the "Big 3" is something Gen4 is moving away from since the end of the tournament.
    The Big 3 in Gen4 PU are as follows: Rhydon, Poliwrath, and Muk. Rhydon is checked by Poliwrath, Poliwrath is checked by Muk, and Muk is checked by Rhydon. This rock/paper/scissors concept was a driving force behind teambuilding for Gen4 PU for some time, as the 3 seemed to dwarf the rest of the tier. However, the tier has become extremely well-adjusted to their presence, even though they are still very effective. Recent tech, such as Hidden Power Grass on a lot of mons such as Rapidash and Purugly for Rhydon, has played a big role in pressuring the Big 3 into a lesser role. Recent innovations such as Mixed Wall Gastrodon and Pelipper also make checking the Big 3 a lot easier than it has been in the past. This opens teambuilding to a lot more options and opportunities. Speaking of...
    • Bulky Offense was the best playstyle after the tournament, but recent innovations of role compression and checks to the "Big 3" means that balance has pulled ahead as the dominant playstyle.
    Mons such as Gastrodon, who can check a huge variety of mons in a single slot, have taken a lot of burden off of team checking demands. Because of this, more glue is possible and teams can now move away from the Bulky Offense that the Big 3 seemed to force the tier into. Take a look at the Teambuilding Workshop team that was made for Gen4 (it's actually a decent team if you wanted to try the tier out):
    Workshop Team (open)


    Electabuzz @ Life Orb
    Ability: Static
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Low Kick
    - Toxic

    Dragonair @ Life Orb
    Ability: Shed Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Extreme Speed
    - Aqua Tail

    Misdreavus @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick
    - Memento
    - Shadow Ball

    Pelipper @ Leftovers
    Ability: Keen Eye
    EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Surf
    - Air Slash
    - Roost
    - U-turn

    Victreebel @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Leaf Blade
    - Sucker Punch
    - Swords Dance
    - Frustration

    Metang @ Leftovers
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Meteor Mash
    - Earthquake
    - Bullet Punch


    The end result is that teams, with the new innovations in glue, can afford to be more dynamic. This has 2 effects: teams can produce and counter more threats, but now have more threats to handle. Even so, as a rule-of-thumb there are a few filled roles that most teams should always have, such as: Rhydon counter, mon that outspeed/ties with base 105, Psychic answer, Sun check, Muk/Victreebel check, Water check, wallbreaker. Obviously every team needs more than this, but if you cover these then you are in decent shape as is. Here is a small guide to help:
    Checklist? (open)

    • Good mons for Rhydon counters are mons such as Poliwrath, Gastrodon, and Misdreavus. You can also have multiple answers to it that block it from doing anything, such as Pelipper and Victreebel, however I personally recommend at least having a mon that can switch in on Rhydon. This can be a hard task, as the CB set actually doesn't have a GSI, but mons that can tank most and hit back are good enough. Revenge killing and luring Rhydon is also pretty easy.
    • The 105 Speed is a benchmark in the tier, as a lot of mons fall into it. Rapidash, Electabuzz, and Kadabra all fall into this benchmark and all are huge threats. Because of that, having a mon to break this benchmark is always recommended. Purugly and Sneasel can do this job with their natural speed, but scarfers such as Golduck and Mr. Mime are also solid picks.
    • "Psychic answer" is a weird one, but the reason for it is because Mr. Mime and Kadabra both can prove to be extremely hard to handle if you aren't prepared. Specially Defensive Sableye can hard counter both of these, and Lickilicky can beat them so long as they don't have Encore or good Focus Blast crits. There are also Pursuit Trappers like Sneasel and Metang, but Metang can sometimes have trouble switching in.
    • Contrary to popular belief, Sun is actually hilariously easy to check. Just run Scarf Golduck and the sun sample is done for. That's it. Alternatively, you can also use Flareon, Muk, Lickilicky, your own Victreebel, or Purugly and you will be fine. These are just the answers that beat most sun teams, but there are more.
    • Checking Muk is easier than checking Victreebel, but they both can have the same mon performing the role. Golbat is the most notable mon for this, as it beats most Muk sets and can check Victreebel reasonably well (not Sunbel tho). Other notable options are Rhydon for Muk, and Kadabra for either. Just keep in mind that you should have a backup plan, but having a dedicated answer is never bad.
    • POLIWRATH IS NOT A WATER CHECK. The only Water Poliwrath can reasonably check is itself, and that comes down to speedcreep more than anything. Real Water checks are things like Bellossom, Pelipper, and Electabuzz (as a NSI). The Water mons you will more than likely have to check are mons like Golduck, Gorebyss, Pelipper, and Poliwrath, so try to find mons that beat those.
    • Obviously teams always appreciate a wallbreaker, but this tier actually has enough defensive synergy that one is almost mandatory on every team that's not full stall. Good choices for this slot are Double Dance Rhydon, SD Victreebel, CB Lickilicky, NP Miscreavus, and Gorebyss. Defensive cores in Gen4 PU are sometimes difficult to break down, so come prepared.
    Obviously this list is not comprehensive, nor does it cover everything. This list is merely here to give you an idea as to what to look for.


    • What are some charactersitics of Gen4 PU teams?
    1. Defensive synergy between mons is a large factor in teambuilding in Gen4, so this makes for bulky teams with bulkier cores.
    2. Setup in Gen4 PU is very strong, as mons like SD Victreebel can break teams in half alone if the opponent is not prepared.
    3. Scarfers are largely optional at the moment...while it is nice to have one, a lot of teams can get away with only having strong priority and lots of defensive synergy.
    4. Most mons creep to 197 speed when they can. Jolly Rhydon sits at 196.
    5. Hazards are incredibly effective. Armaldo is the only largely viable spinner, and it can be difficult to put on teams. As a result, Spikestack is very effective in the tier if you can squeeze one of the few users of the move on a team.
    • As a final note, here are some mons that are becoming staples ever since the Drifblim Suspect:
    victreebel.png
    As it turns out, losing such a good counter like Drifblim has made Victreebel even better. Victreebel is the wild card of Gen4 PU, as you never know what set it is until it's revealed...and each set has a very different list of counters. What the SD set cannot break, the Sun set can, and vice versa. Even Choice Scarf sets have proven to be effective in this metagame. Victreebel's great movepool and power has made it stronger than it ever has been, and is a threat to fear in Gen4 PU.
    Victreebel Sets (open)


    Swords Dance Wallbreaker:


    Victreebel @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Leaf Blade
    - Frustration
    - Sucker Punch

    SD Victreebel is such a powerful stallbreaker that the need for any answer to it is one of the main focus points for any stall team, moreso than Rhydon or Muk. Leaf Blade can 2HKO almost all of the metagame and Frustration patches up a lot of coverage for Grass. Sucker Punch also hits incredibly hard, even if it is not STAB. Victreebel's highest stat is its Attack after all.


    Mixed:


    Victreebel @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naughty Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Leaf Blade
    - Sucker Punch
    - Frustration / Sludge Bomb

    This set banks on the "wild card" nature of Victreebel to hit hard on both sides of the spectrum and wallbreak. Since Victreebel has 2 very viable but distinctly different sets in the forms of the Swords Dance and Sun Sweeper set, Mixed Victreebel banks on the fact that your opponent never truly knows what Victreebel is going to do until you reveal it. On top of that Victreebel has 2 very different sets of checks and counters depending on the set, so this set can prove to be difficult to check.


    Sun Sweeper:


    Victreebel @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sleep Powder / Sunny Day
    - Solar Beam
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Weather Ball

    Cleanly outspeeding the entire tier and having enough power to wallbreak and sweep, this set is a menace to both offensive and defensive teams alike. Solarbeam can OHKO almost all offensive mons with ease, and the coverage provided by Sludge Bomb and Weather Ball (which is 100 BP Fire in the sun) is more than enough to break apart teams not prepared for it. Modest is also an acceptable nature for this set, however then you run the risk of being counterswept by another Victreebel. In this vein, Timid is recommended so you can at least speedtie.


    Choice Scarf:


    Victreebel @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
    - Leaf Storm
    - Energy Ball
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Choice Scarf lets Victreebel just barely outspeed the entire unboosted metagame (minus Sneasel) while still having the usual power of all of the other sets. This set can revenge kill without needing to bank on Sucker Punch while still wallbreaking with Leaf Storm. However, the main benefit of this set is how it is the least expected. Since most checks rely on outspeeding Victreebel to check it, Victreebel can outspeed and KO them instead.



    gastrodon-west.png
    As stated several times in this post, Gastrodon has quickly become a favorite due to its ability to check a massive variety of mons in a single slot. Checking Rhydon, Poliwrath, and Muk all in 1 slot is effective enough, but Gastrodon has enough bulk to check a large variety of mons such as Golduck, Marowak, and Electabuzz...even with Grass coverage. Gastrodon is easily one of the most reliable gluemons at the moment.
    Gastrodon Sets (open)


    Mixed Wall:


    Gastrodon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sticky Hold
    EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 120 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    - Toxic
    - Surf / Waterfall
    - Earthquake
    - Recover

    Gastrodon is popular for balance teams for its ability to check a large number of mons in a single slot, most notably Rhydon, Muk, and Poliwrath. The EVs are so that Poliwrath cannot 3HKO with Focus Blast, making Gastrodon a GSI. The rest of the EVs are thrown into HP and Defense to help tank hits from Rhydon. While this set is not an offensive set at all, the fact that it has such an intense amount of role compression makes it a staple on balance teams.

    Curse:


    Gastrodon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sticky Hold
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Curse
    - Waterfall
    - Earthquake
    - Recover

    This set attempts to remedy Gastrodon's lack of offensive prowess by setting up while still maintaining its mixed defenses. The main thing this set has over the Mixed Wall set is the increased power that comes with Curse, but losing Toxic means that Gastrodon is now even weaker to Grasses that can easily switch in.



    pelipper.png
    Pelipper has gotten popular for similar reasons to Gastrodon: able to check a large chunk of mons reliably. Pelipper can check Poliwrath, Rhydon, Scarf Golduck, Machoke, Purugly, and more all in 1 slot with the ability to heal and U-turn off of them pretty freely. Pelipper's strengths at the moment come mainly from metagame trends, as there are a shortage of teams that can aptly deal with it.
    Pelipper Set (open)


    Pelipper @ Leftovers
    Ability: Keen Eye
    EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Air Slash
    - Roost
    - U-turn

    With just enough speed to outspeed neutral nature Cacturne and Jolly Marowak, Pelipper is a bulky mon that can check Waters and Grounds effectively. The U-turn is also a huge boon that lets teams with Pelipper make better use of defensive synergy and offensive checks. You could also run only 124 speed to outspeed only Rhydon if you wanted more bulk.



    lickilicky.png
    Lickilicky became popular in the Drifblim metagame for being a decent answer to it, but never lost its popularity. The popularity is well-warranted too, as Lickilicky is both a fantastic wallbreaker and wall. The Choice Band set hits extremely hard and has great coverage for resists, and has an Explosion that cripples, if not outright kills, anything not immune to it. The Specially Defensive set is also becoming more popular for its use as an answer to a lot of the popular special attackers in the tier like Kadabra and Scarf Golduck while also passing Wish to teammates like Metang or Misdreavus. The recent nomination for Lickilicky to go to A+ is definitely reasonable, if not overdue.
    Lickilicky Sets (open)


    Specially Defensive:


    Lickilicky @ Leftovers
    Ability: Oblivious
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Body Slam
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Power Whip / Heal Bell

    This set is a staple gluemon for more defensive teams, as Lickilicky can pass Wish and still tank a lot of special hits all on its own. Lickilicky can work as a GSI to a lot of special attackers such as Kadabra while still hitting decently hard with Body Slam. Choosing between Power Whip and Heal Bell is a team-based decision: Power Whip can lure in Rhydon and hit Ghosts, but Heal Bell can save your team a lot of trouble.


    Choice Band:


    Lickilicky @ Choice Band
    Ability: Own Tempo
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Frustration
    - Earthquake
    - Power Whip
    - Explosion

    This set is extremely powerful. STAB Explosion can KO a huge amount of mons (including Rhydon), and Lickilicky has fantastic coverage to compliment the Normal Spam. One thing to keep an eye out for, however, is the huge amount of SSIs that can abuse this set. Regardless, this set has enough bulk to take a few hits and KO at least 1 mon if played well.



    marowak.png
    "Why use Marowak over Rhydon?" you may ask, and you do have a point. No secondary typing means only 1 STAB and fewer resists, and Rhydon is much bulkier. However, Marowak's slightly higher speed and lack of 4x weaknesses has given Marowak a niche. Instead of running Rhydon, who gets lured and spedcrept habitually at this point, why not run Marowak? Marowak can hit 207 speed with about the same overall power, and is not bopped by random HP Grass mons. In fact, Marowak can be used to check Electabuzz, which is something Rhydon can really only dream of. Usually you will want Rhydon, but if you are looking for a Stealth Rock attacker that can check Edgequake, speedcreepers, and Electrics, Marowak may be the mon for you.
    Marowak Set (open)


    Marowak @ Thick Club
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Double-Edge
    - Stone Edge

    While usually outclassed by Rhydon, Marowak's higher speed and similar power gives it competition and its pure Ground typing gives Marowak a niche. Marowak can check Electabuzz and Rhydon, while outspeeding a lot of the mons that speedcreep Rhydon. The loss of Rock means that Marowak has fewer resists, but the fewer weaknesses means that Marowak is not lured as effectively as Rhydon either. Marowak's niche is that, while less bulky and less strong, Marowak is faster and can check mons that habitually check Rhydon.



    Well...that's a long post done. I made this post to better orient people to the Gen4 metagame, as it can be a bit difficult to do so. This post does not cover everything of course, but hopefully it gave you enough of an idea of the metagame that you are able to jump in and learn the tier firsthand.

    Also, a Sets Compendium has been added to the DPP resource posts and a Checks Compendium is coming very soon. Good luck, and I hope you enjoy the tier!
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  22. TONE

    TONE Get your bitch a cannon. Bitches love cannons.
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

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    Messages:
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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    No Tricks, Just Trick Room (Sinnoh Style)

    Importable (open)

    Solrock @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 76 Def
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Stealth Rock
    - Trick Room
    - Explosion
    - Magic Coat

    Marowak @ Thick Club
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Substitute
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Double-Edge

    Chimecho @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Yawn
    - Trick Room
    - Healing Wish
    - Psychic

    Octillery @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sniper
    EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Energy Ball
    - Fire Blast

    Machoke @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Def / 32 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Payback
    - Thunder Punch
    - Earthquake

    Xatu @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Psychic
    - Heat Wave
    - Shadow Ball
    - U-turn


    Description (open)

    So this team plays sorta similiar to my old Gen 6 PU Trick Room RMT, but modified for the consensus of Gen 4. Solrock is the dedicated lead designed to set up Trick Room and Stealth Rock with Magic Coat here for Taunt leads like Sneasel. Octillery, Marowak, and Machoke make for the Trick Room abusers, Thunder Punch Machoke is nice for Poliwrath so you don't have to click CC and also helps with Pelipper a lot and Ice Punch for Grass-types. Chimecho provides Trick Room + Healing Wish support, I prefer Yawn over Hypnosis as Hypnosis's accuracy is too shaky for my liking and Yawn forces your opponent to either switch or leave their mon in and be put to sleep the following turn. Lastly, Scarf Xatu provides Speed and allows me to function outside of TR while also providing momentum with U-Turn plus it's faster than Scarf Mr. Mime albeit weaker. Hope you enjoy the team.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  23. GeneralAnnoyance

    GeneralAnnoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Messages:
    197
    Team looks cool. Magic coat lead solrock looks really neat actually. One thing I might consider altering is eq>ice punch on machoke. Tpunch hits all the relevant flying types and eq can let you hit muk super effectively into 50/50 ohko whereas you may have trouble with that without eq. Additionally, how is your matchup vs purugly? Fake Out Purugly is one of the biggest threats to TR and I'm concerned that not having a normal resist/immunity after Solrock explodes could spell disaster for the team.

    Machoke Calc (open)
    252+ Atk Guts Machoke Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 380-448 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Guts Machoke Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 142-168 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 53.4% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    TONE, pancake and Aaronboyer like this.
  24. TONE

    TONE Get your bitch a cannon. Bitches love cannons.
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,183
    Thanks for the feedback. I actually forgot what I had Ice Punch on Machoke for, but EQ helps a lot more so definetly changing to that. It's also funny how you brought up Purugly because I tested this team against Akir and he brought lead Purugly with Shadow Claw which 2HKO'd Solrock. my best bet to dealing with Purugly was to make sure Trick Room was up or either revenge kill with scarf Xatu after it took enough Life Orb recoil (I also had to make sure rocks weren't up but even then Fake Out + Sucker Punch takes out Xatu as well). I did tinker a bit with the Solrock set and made it a bit bulkier, so the set is now:

    Solrock @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 76 Def
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Stealth Rock
    - Trick Room
    - Explosion
    - Magic Coat

    The extra investment isn't really manditory, but at least you still get some pop in Explosion while avoiding the 2HKO from Shadow Claw Purugly although a fully physically deefensive set works fine as well.
    Aaronboyer, Akir and GeneralAnnoyance like this.
  25. Aaronboyer

    Aaronboyer formerly Boyeraj17

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    175
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Gen 5 Balance Offense ft. Scarf Grumpig (A Mini RMT)
    Team Importable (open)

    Machoke @ Eviolite
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Payback
    - Thunder Punch/Rest
    - Bullet Punch/Sleep Talk

    Jumpluff @ Flying Gem
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - U-turn
    - Sleep Powder
    - Seed Bomb

    Zebstrika @ Magnet
    Ability: Lightning Rod
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Overheat
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Vigoroth @ Eviolite
    Ability: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Bulk Up
    - Return
    - Slack Off
    - Taunt/Substitute

    Gabite @ Eviolite
    Ability: Rough Skin
    EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic

    Grumpig @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Thick Fat
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Trick
    - Psychic
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast

    Description (open)
    Knowing that I couldn't bring all HO Weather against QuiteQuiet, I sought after making a Balance Offensive team that wasn't only easy to use, but also fun to use.

    I jumped into the competitive Gen 6 PU meta right after the Vigoroth/Exeggutor suspect test, and I really didn't have the time to ladder nor did I have time to fully comprehend why Vigoroth was suspected in the first place. Now I know this is one of the deadliest and most under-appreciated late-game cleaners Gen 5 PU has to offer. Sporting only one weakness and a colorful support movepool, Vigoroth puts an enormous amount of pressure onto the opponent before it even hits the playing field.

    Another purpose I wanted to fulfill with this team is to utilize strategies restricted to Gen 5, and with their lack of distribution in Gen 6, the Flying Gem in tandem with Jumpluff's high speed and access to Acrobatics made it a prime choice. Jumpluff also has access to Sleep Powder, which has saved me from losing the match a handful of times, as well as U-Turn for pivoting. Jumpluff also acts as a Fighting-resist for Vigoroth.

    From here, I wanted a Volt Switcher so that I could create a VoltTurn core. Zebstrika was the fastest option that, unlike Raichu or Rotom-Frost, wasn't weak to Stealth Rock, wasn't choice locked, and could still outspeed Sneasel. Magnet is chosen over LO to bluff the Choice-item, another strategy I found myself doing more so in Gen 5 then in any other generation.


    Now I needed a Rocker, but preferably one that wasn't a rock type itself as to not stack a Fighting-weakness with Vigoroth or a Ground-weakness with Zebstrika. After much deliberation, Gabite was chosen for its high natural speed tier, great dual STAB, and most importantly, its bulk in combination with Rough Skin. Rough Skin allows Gabite 99% of the time to beat Fraxure in 1v1 situations or cause a double down.

    This team now has 4 Pokemon and 2 of them have a quad-weakness to Ice as well as no resists. Machoke puts offensive pressure on said Ice-types with Close Combat, lures Pelipper/Swanna/Mantine with Thunder Punch, and gives the team priority in Bullet Punch. Grumpig is the Scarf Pokemon of the team and puts dents into Pokemon this team would otherwise have trouble dealing with, for example, ScarfMime. Trick is to beat more defensively inclined teams that rely on their items aka Audino's leftovers or Broznor's/Chinchou's Eviolite. Also sports a psuedo Ice-resist with Thick Fat!

    Replays (open)


    Thank you for all the support the PU Room has given to me this week with teambuilding/testing. Shoutouts to Akir, GeneralAnnoyance, PokemonMasterTJ, Chrisloud, HJAD, UBERSkitty, RawMelon, SmallSmallRose, and others who I've probably missed but are nonetheless greatly appreciated.
    Last edited: May 25, 2017

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