Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

ManOfMany

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Nominating Whiscash from C- to C+


No, not in basis of the Dragon Dance set. We all know the dragon-dance set gets walled by grass types (it can easily beat stuff like Sawsbuck and Simisage with life orb bounce) but still, it gets walled by Gourgeist and Tangela, the main grass types in PU. Other than that, the set isn’t bad. A +1 Life Orb Earthquake hits just as hard as a +1 life orb Waterfall from Feraligatr (I’ve done the calcs) while offering better super-effective coverage. And it outspeeds base 110 speed after 1 dance, which is all it really needs. Stone Edge could be used to take down Pelipper and OHKO Regice as well. A Substitute Dragon-Dance set is also usable for its ability to set up on Probopass, defensive Carracosta, defensive Poliwrath, Torkoal, Rapidash, Raichu without grass knot etc. However it is not all that great in the metagame because Gourgeist and Tangela are so common.

However, I want to nominate it as a special attacker. Lately, I've been experimenting with a Whiscash that looks like this:

Whiscash @ Choice Specs
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

And it has actually put in a lot of work. (TRC knows, I took out half his team with this set ^_^ )

Choice Specs Whiscash lures and KOs grass types. Specs Modest Ice Beam has a chance to KO 252 HP Tangela, and does significant damage to Gourgeist and Offensive Roselia, as well as hitting Torterra and Jumpluff switch-ins.
Scald is scald, and hydro pump off a choice specs is always good. Earth power is also really spammable in this metagame. Those moves together offer brilliant super-effective coverage and perfect neutral coverage.

The main attraction to using Whiscash anyway is the typing. It is the best offensive check we have to offer to Rapidash, it walls Raichu without grass knot (a poor choice on raichu anyway), it gets free switches on the ever-common Probopass, and is extremely hard to take out in one move. Neither the dragon-dance set or special attacking set are very good, however, they complement each other well because they take out each others’ checks and counters.

If you want to beat other rocks leads, you already do that by running something faster with taunt. Meanwhile having your only attacking moves be fake out and grass knot (taunt is required) makes monferno fairly worthless, even for a suicide lead. At least Delibird can prevent hazards 100% of the time with Defog and kill most rocks leads with fake out+seed bomb (or aerial ace for monferno).
I would rather use rapid spin than Defog on Delibird.
 
OK, this is gonna be my first post on the Smog forums, so hi everybody! I figured where better to post than the tier I've been enjoying the most recently?

Without further ado, I'd like to nominate a rise for Maractus. Nothing major, but I'd like to see it rise from E to D-, maybe even D.

Upon first glance, Maractus is outclassed by the other more popular, and put simply, better Spikes users in the tier; these being Roselia and Whirlipede, and to be honest it is for the most part, there can be no denial of that. However, I feel it has a few things going for it, small but present niches, that justify a rise.


Maractus @ Focus Sash
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 Spe, 208 Atk, 48 SpA
Naive Nature
-Spikes
-Bullet Seed/ Spiky Shield
-Sucker Punch
-Grass Knot

The above is what a typical set for Cactus looks like, and as you can see it does have a couple of cool little quirks. It has the option of a couple of great abilities to choose from, which in a meta dominated by top-tier threats like Poliwrath can be handy, you have the choice of becoming a more potent threat with Storm Drain, or utilising Water Absorb as a way of trying to increase your own longevity, which for a hazard stacker is actually pretty cool.

It doesn't have the best defensive stats (or speed for that matter) but 86/106 offenses are actually usable, and it has some great options within its movepool that complement what its trying to do, it even gets Spiky Shield which is occasionally cool for scouting/dealing solid chip damage to unsuspecting threats.

That's really all I have to say on the awesome little plant, and I'd love to hear what you think. I honestly feel that its too good to be sitting lower than stuff like Meganium (lol) and Luvdisc (lmao) .I'd love to hear what you think about Maractus, let's get this thing where it belongs <3
 
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TONE

I don't have to take this. I'm going for a walk.
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Nominating Chatot for S

Chatot @ Focus Sash

-Boomburst
-Chatter
-Heat Wave/Substitute
-Nasty Plot

This set can win entire games on its own
No support needed
Chatot in no way should be S rank especially since it can't relaibly sweep unless its checks/counters are removed or weakened to a point where Chatot can sweep plus its walled by Soundproof Mr. Mime as well as Pawniard and Probopass if you're not running Heat Wave, plus relying on confusion hax doesn't make a mon S rank.
 
252 SpA Choice Specs Chatot Hidden Power Steel vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mr. Mime: 134-158 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO <- suspect imo

But seriously, Chatot isn't S rank, not even close. It has poor bulk, SR weakness, ability to be revenged easily, it is fine where it is at at A-
 
except it isn't a subpar ability, it's also better than a move that never fucking hits considering soundproof is situational unless you're specifically trying to switch into chatot instead of revenging it
 
except it isn't a subpar ability, it's also better than a move that never fucking hits considering soundproof is situational unless you're specifically trying to switch into chatot instead of revenging it
Yeah having a move that has a 0 % chance of takong out Probopass is certainly sorse than having one that does 70% of the time and lets you switch into chatot (and Aurorus) in a pinch. Technician is probably decent if you want Mr. Mime to deal with some other threat (or to reliably OHKO Pawniard i guess? Pretty sure Sucker Punch is pretty much an OHKO) but Soundproof is the better ability overall imo.
 
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Throh from A+ to S
Simipour from A- to A
Flareon from B+ to B-
Jumpluff from B+ to A
Floatzel from B to B+
Frogadier from B to B-
Rapidash from B to B+
Ursaring from B to A-
Zebstrika from B to A-
Meowstic-M from B- to C+
Metang from B- to C+
Monferno from C+ to B-
Furfrou from C- to C
Jewish Yellow Man from C- to C
Natu from C- to D
Wailord from C- to D
Maractus from E to D

Not gonna bother writing reasoning this time around, but if you want to know why a specific nom did or didn't go through feel free to vm/pm me and I'll explain why.

Also, I'd like some discussion on Probopass to A+ and Piloswine to A, as I didn't feel comfortable moving them without any noms being posted in the thread, especially since they are important mons and there wasn't a consensus on whether or not they should move when they were brought up elsewhere. (translation: Anty and galbia pls post about them here)
 

MZ

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Finally moved up jumpluff nb. I'm not entirely convinced that probo should move up, but pilo can fall. It's still a great mon, but the recent trends of simipour, throh, Pawniard, Probo, Poli, and all the new SR setters (plus custap) being everywhere have just hurt it too much. It's not bad, but it'a facing a lot of competition with probo rn. It was great for taking two hits from Tauros without iron tail, but rip.
 
Wish PU had a little more activity :(
I agree with Probo where it is.. a lot of mons can beat it one on one.. Although it is really good..
 
Nominating Servine from C+ to B



B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the PU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

Servine fits the definition a B rank well. It needs a little team support to shine(hazards), but with that support it is one of the best late game cleaners in the tier. It can run an eviolite set well, but I have been using a choice scarf servine to great success, peaking with it at #15 on the ladder. Servine can come in on a weakened pokemon late game to revenge kill, nabbing a +2 boost and allowing it to put heavy pressure on the opposing team. It is stopped by a few common pokemon, namely roselia, bulky flareon and ninetales, sap sippers, and jumpluff, but these can be played around by predicting switches with glare or knock off.

Here are two replays of servine doing well against good players, the first is against Detective Marowak and the second is against an alt of GoodLukeOfTheSand:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-215719981
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-215854613
Detective marowak wanted to say that croduck is a garage god
Servine vs priority:
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Servine: 174-211 (66.6 - 80.8%)
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Servine: 152-182 (58.2 - 69.7%)
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Servine: 136-162 (52.1 - 62%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Poliwrath Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Servine: 91-108 (34.8 - 41.3%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Servine: 185-218 (70.8 - 83.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Servine: 91-108 (34.8 - 41.3%)
252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Servine: 121-144 (46.3 - 55.1%)
252+ Atk Dusknoir Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Servine: 76-91 (29.1 - 34.8%)

After the opposing team is weakened and you've nabbed your boost:
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 217-256 (83.1 - 98%) and the defensive set does little damage to servine
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 228-268 (98.7 - 116%)
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 192-227 (83.1 - 98.2%)
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 114-135 (40.1 - 47.5%) this range is a guaranteed 2HKO since you'll be getting another boost after the first attack
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 228-268 (51.3 - 60.3%) throh can't switch in after being weakened
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 114-135 (34.1 - 40.4%) 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 211-250 (49.7 - 58.9%)2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 342-403 (96.6 - 113.8%)
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flareon: 130-153 (47.9 - 56.4%)
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 190-224 (55.2 - 65.1%)
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 142-168 (49.4 - 58.5%)
+2 252+ SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Regice: 141-166 (38.7 - 45.6%) but all of the above four pokemon are easy to weaken with stealth rock

As you can see, you do need to sufficiently weaken the opposing team before you can sweep, but once you have there's nothing stopping servine. Once the opponent's team has been weakened over the course of the match there is very little that can be done to stop a servine sweep, making it a strong win condition. Overall, servine is not a great pokemon on its own - you can't just slap it on a team and try to get a few kills by spamming leaf storm, but with hazard support it becomes very threatening, fully worthy of B rank.
 
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scorpdestroyer

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I agree with moving Servine up higher, but I'm fine with B-

I disagree with moving Piloswine down. Piloswine is still a great mon regardless of the popularity of stuff that beat it as they don't change the fact that it does what it has to really well. It checks almost all Electric-types well, it provides priority, and its good bulk means that it can usually take a hit in a pinch from a lot of Pokemon and then hit back. I don't think Probopass made it worse because Piloswine's niche is still unique and good.
 

MZ

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Stoutland to A-
This is kinda shaky, but stout is incredibly good at breaking with its scrappy CB set right now, in addition to sand still being good. Its fast enough, has passable bulk, and can pursuit trap, and even luring probo with silk scarf superpower is an interesting option. However, it's not nascar speed and things like Throh, poli, Armaldo, probo, etc are running around that give it issues. Slightly torn on this one, but I think it deserves the nom at least
 
Corsola to D
Corsola gets stealth rocks, recover, and regenerator. It's one of the few stealth rock setters that has access to reliable recovery in the tier, and it is the only one with regenerator. This gives corsola a unique niche as a stealth rocker that can consistently restore its HP, a trait that is important due to how often stealth rock users have to take a hit before getting rocks up. After getting rocks up, it can still be useful later in the match as a toxic staller. Rock/water is an alright defensive typing, letting it function as a bird check. It has an awful 55 base HP, but 85/85 defenses are good enough to let it take some hits. Here are some common attackers that corsola can beat - I am listing the highest damage they could possibly deal to corsola with any one attack.
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 90-107 (28.6 - 34%)
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 105-123 (33.4 - 39.1%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 117-138 (37.2 - 43.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 64-75 (20.3 - 23.8%)

Corsola can fire back with a STAB power gem(a 2HKO on all the pokemon above that are weak to it), or toxic to beat them. E rank is given to pokemon that are not viable in PU, and it is clear that corsola has a niche that makes it viable on some teams. You can argue that carracosta outclasses it, which it does, for the most part, but corsola's access to recovery give it a slight niche. And bastiodon and gigalith are in D rank, despite probopass and golem outclassing them. So corsola should be in D rank as well.
 
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Quiladin for B+ Has great bulk even without eviolite access to spikes and recovery.. Overall solid mon.. Easy to make defensive core around..
 

Lickilicky for A ( Again ) :
2 insane wallbreakers are now gone, allowing Stall to become a much more viable playstyle. So obviously, Lickilicky benefits from it. As i'm sure you all know, it checks quite a lot of special threats, it has great bulk overall, can send pretty big wishes, and has a decent offensive presence. I'd also like to insist that Offensive Lickilicky isn't bad either, by virtue of its great physical movepool, the surprise factor, and isn't outclassed rn.

Also, agreeing with Scorp on both Servine & Piloswine , and while Probo is very solid overall and has a lot of utility, i don't think it's A+, i'll tell you more about that later.
 

Anty

let's drop
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Lickilicky for A ( Again ) : 2 insane wallbreakers are now gone, allowing Stall to become a much more viable playstyle. So obviously, Lickilicky benefits from it. As i'm sure you all know, it checks quite a lot of special threats, it has great bulk overall, can send pretty big wishes, and has a decent offensive presence. I'd also like to insist that Offensive Lickilicky isn't bad either, by virtue of its great physical movepool, the surprise factor, and isn't outclassed rn.

Also, agreeing with Scorp on both Servine & Piloswine , and while Probo is very solid overall and has a lot of utility, i don't think it's A+, i'll tell you more about that later.
Tauros and Kecleon were definitely not the biggest threat to stall, its more common pokes like ninetales and leafeon as well as other less used wallbreakers like heatmor, marowak and rampardos. In fact the loss of these actually made stall worse, as now there are much more stoutlands and ursarings who have no safe switch ins only to try and toxic stall ursaring and /forfeit to stoutland. Other decent stall breakers are also getting more hype, eg mixed simipour and toxic 3 attacks throh, which stall have to try and predict around or otherwise lose a Poke every time on of these switches in. Offensive Lickilicky is really bad as i dont see a reason to use it over pokes like stoutland or even guts ursaring, and the offensive wish varient loses out a lot of defensive presence to the extent that it only really fits in on balance teams, which prefer walls with more bulk or a better typing.


This next bit isnt really aimed at anyone but i see this quite a lot on this thread. Posts, or even parts of posts saying 'i also agree with x' dont mean anything if they are not backed up by anything, as we (the people who decide the ranks) will be persuaded by strong arguments and we frankly dont care if XX69xxBlazeItXX agrees with Nova that Slaking should be S-rank if they dont post anything about the poke itself. Adding onto a proper post that 'i will talk about this later' is fine as it helps you remember what you will post about
 

scorpdestroyer

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hi my name is XX69xxBlazeItXX and i think that Ninetales should be S-rank.

Ninetales has a combination of good bulk, great coverage, and good speed. Offensive teams pretty much require something faster that can OHKO it or have to pivot around it otherwise. Some of these such as Sneasel can't safely switch in while others like Jumpluff and Zebstrika can't even OHKO. We also just lost two revenge killers on offense which makes it slightly harder to accommodate multiple revenge killers for tales. Tales also tears apart defensive teams that lack a solid counter like Grumpig, Zweilous, or defensive Ninetales. Tales also can run other sets such as wisp and sub to help it wear down switch ins and deal with defensive Pokemon respectively.

Preparing for tales when teambuilding is really troublesome and it's not much easier in practice because tales can tear apart teams with coverage and sorta mitigate its SR weakness with Leftovers and forcing a lot of switches. I think it's definitely worthy of S-rank.
 

Deej Dy

Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
I'd also like to argue for a drop for Throh to A+ rank. Don't get me wrong, often it is a great defensive mon with good coverage, however I find it extremely passive aside from the bulk-up set which gives up coverage and longevity for coverage. All to often I find myself easily swapping in Roselia on the knock off, Storm throw (No Ice punch) set and setting up spikes galore. When it does have ice punch it lacks it's crucial longevity of Rest Talk or it sets itself for failure facing the omnipresent Misdreavus. I think Ninetales and Poliwrath are definitely better than throh and Throh is not deserving to be in the S rank with these gods of PU.

Also it lacks the variability of Wrath (Special LO set, Sub Punch, Circle-Throw Rest Talk, Specs, etc), It has 2 or 3 good sets which make it pretty predictable and Wrath itself can swap in with ease and figure it out in a couple of turns before Circlethrowing it out or swapping to Roselia for easy spikes.

I realize it has a niche of knock off over Wrath, but I don't think Throh is on par with Wrath by any means.

Catch you goons in the PU room,

Deejles McDy

Edit: PREACH SCORP PREACH! Ninetales for S.

lol.....
 
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Throh is easily an S rank Pokemon. The main thing about it is that it just doesn't die. Most neutral hits barely 3HKO it, and it 2HKOes a most offensive Pokemon in return. It's basically impossible to switch into Throh without being worse off in some way, as almost everything is either 2HKOed on the switch without being able to do much back, or it's something like Tangela or Roselia that gets incredibly crippled by Knock Off. It's not impossible to wear it down, but statusing it just makes it hit harder, and it can very, very easily Rest up on a lot of weaker attackers. It's defintely not weak, I don't see where you're getting that from. Of course stuff like defensive Roselia is going to take its hits, but it still is basically impossible to switch into Throh without being much worse off thanks to Knock Off.
 

scorpdestroyer

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I oppose dropping Throh as well. If you're worried about its lack of power, I invite you to try out Choice Band Throh or just a simple Bulk Up + 3 Attacks Throh. Throh is pretty much necessary on teams that don't want a wrath or costa to check Sneasel meaning it fits on a lot of teams and isn't passive at all. Like Magnemite said Rose and Tangela get crippled by Knock Off and moves like Ice Punch or Toxic. it's not really passive when its STAB + Knock Off already hit everything hard enough or just cripple them. Definitely top tier and S rank
 

MZ

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Leafeon to A
Leafeon is a good mon, but the new drops have just hurt it too much, with every one being a solid check/counter to the SR set (unless iron tail for Armaldo). Sneasel has also become even better, and the rise of special poli makes it harder for leafeon to switch in on it. There are also new options for SD users in Pawniard and Armaldo. Jumpluff also has become very popular recently, and it gives Leafeon a lot of competition, as well as just being a great counter to it with resisting its STABs, not having an item to knock off, 2HKOing it with acro, and even being able to encore it into sub or sd sometimes.
 

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