Could you explain why I would want to use Ivysaur over Roselia, who has similar bulk, more offensive pressure, and can get up the amazing Spikes and T-Spikes?
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Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Anty
- Start date
Beartic to C+/C
It's just not a B- threat anymore. It used to have a solid niche on rain, but rain in general has declined and it now faces competition from Armaldo. However, sneasel and throh may leave, and it makes sense to wait. That being said, even if the two are banned I can see beartic dropping.
Edit: Most of my post deleted itself? Basically Rain isn't as dominating of a playstyle as it used to be with new grass types gaining popularity and the rise of offensive poliwrath, and now that beartic has to compete with armaldo and is basically walled by torkoal and armaldo unless offensive (plus both check it), it's just not as scary of a mon anymore. It also faces competition from physical aurorus which has better speed and surprise factor. While sneasel and throh might leave, throh was just one check and I still don't see much reason to use beartic outside of rain.
It's just not a B- threat anymore. It used to have a solid niche on rain, but rain in general has declined and it now faces competition from Armaldo. However, sneasel and throh may leave, and it makes sense to wait. That being said, even if the two are banned I can see beartic dropping.
Edit: Most of my post deleted itself? Basically Rain isn't as dominating of a playstyle as it used to be with new grass types gaining popularity and the rise of offensive poliwrath, and now that beartic has to compete with armaldo and is basically walled by torkoal and armaldo unless offensive (plus both check it), it's just not as scary of a mon anymore. It also faces competition from physical aurorus which has better speed and surprise factor. While sneasel and throh might leave, throh was just one check and I still don't see much reason to use beartic outside of rain.
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Final update of Sneasel Throh meta:
Misdreavus from A+ to A
Regice from A to A-
Zebstrika from A- to A
Beartic from B- to C+
Sliggoo from C+ to C
Zweilous from C+ to B-
Dragonair from C to C-
Machoke from C to C-
Murkrow from C to B
Persian from C to C+
Raticate from C to C-
Whiscash from C to D
Wormadam-S from C to D
Ariados from C- to D
Bibarel from C- to D
Lampent from C- to C
Mothim from C- to E
Octillery from C- to C
Shedinja from D to C-
Wailord from D to E
Cherrim from E to C-
Chimecho from E to C-
Seaking from E to D
Venipede from unlisted to B-
As usual, I'm not going to provide reasoning for all of these, as it makes more sense for people to just PM/VM me (I'd prefer this to asking in the thread). Also, most of these changes are from Anty and I testing things in the lower ranks.
Misdreavus from A+ to A
Regice from A to A-
Zebstrika from A- to A
Beartic from B- to C+
Sliggoo from C+ to C
Zweilous from C+ to B-
Dragonair from C to C-
Machoke from C to C-
Murkrow from C to B
Persian from C to C+
Raticate from C to C-
Whiscash from C to D
Wormadam-S from C to D
Ariados from C- to D
Bibarel from C- to D
Lampent from C- to C
Mothim from C- to E
Octillery from C- to C
Shedinja from D to C-
Wailord from D to E
Cherrim from E to C-
Chimecho from E to C-
Seaking from E to D
Venipede from unlisted to B-
As usual, I'm not going to provide reasoning for all of these, as it makes more sense for people to just PM/VM me (I'd prefer this to asking in the thread). Also, most of these changes are from Anty and I testing things in the lower ranks.
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I made a detailed post about it on the Old Viability Rankings thread but it was ignored. It really is good, it always beats Golem, and taunt+knock off cripples so many walls as well.
Simply put, Magcargo is trash. Its typing is really bad, it has little bulk on the special side, and no offensive pressure. Its only slight niches are a Flying resist and Recover, but those niches are extremely hindered by its typing and speed, letting it have Grass be neutral to it, a 4x weakness to Water and Ground(some of the most common types), and it just can't check Pokemon that Torkoal can't because of this. Sure, it has a Flying resist which is nice, but most of the Flying types in the tier can beat it, bar Chatot and Articuno. Plus its Rock typing just lets Pokemon like Ninetales and Leafeon, Pokemon Torkoal can check thanks to its pure Fire type. And while it has Recover, it has very low speed and a horrible typing, so that doesn't really make up for it.
Overall, I can see Magcargo's 'niches' but overall, I don't see them being enough to warrant it being D Rank.
Pawniard from A to A+ rank
Same reasons as last time, but it's even more useful now that throh and sneasel are banned. With throh gone, one of its checks is gone. With sneasel gone, pawniard has no competition with any pokemon that fill a similar role to it, and is mandatory on every dark spam team.
Venipede from B- to C+ rank
Its niche over whirlipede is that it outspeeds scarf mime and rotom. Other than that, whirlipede is bulkier than it, which means you can save whirlipede for later if your opponent has a rapid spinner or defogger. Being able to outspeed 2 relevant pokemon and doing nothing else better doesn't make venipede as good as whirlipede.
Edit: Whirlipede also gets up 2 layers vs scarf mime or rotom-f, because it can follow the sequence protect-->live with sash while getting up 1 hazard-->protect-->outspeed at +3 and get up second hazard. So that entire niche that I stated for venipede is not true, giving it even less viability
Same reasons as last time, but it's even more useful now that throh and sneasel are banned. With throh gone, one of its checks is gone. With sneasel gone, pawniard has no competition with any pokemon that fill a similar role to it, and is mandatory on every dark spam team.
Venipede from B- to C+ rank
Its niche over whirlipede is that it outspeeds scarf mime and rotom. Other than that, whirlipede is bulkier than it, which means you can save whirlipede for later if your opponent has a rapid spinner or defogger. Being able to outspeed 2 relevant pokemon and doing nothing else better doesn't make venipede as good as whirlipede.
Edit: Whirlipede also gets up 2 layers vs scarf mime or rotom-f, because it can follow the sequence protect-->live with sash while getting up 1 hazard-->protect-->outspeed at +3 and get up second hazard. So that entire niche that I stated for venipede is not true, giving it even less viability
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This i completely disagree with, as you really arent using whirlipede for its bulk. In fact the only reason to use whirlipede is as it will live 2 hit golem/armaldo rock blasts and has a chance to live 3, which is completely luck based. Venipedes niche is as more important as it can now outspeed these pokes:
Whirlipede still doesnt have great bulk meaning it finds difficulty in setting up spikes mid way through the match, especcially considering this a very offensive metagame, and a lot of spike stacking teams can and will use offensive pressure + ghost/defiants to prevent defog meaning it can still be used as a lead. From looking at this venipede should be ranked higher as whirlipedes niche is fairly small, as outside being a lead it is only setting up on very passive things like bulky carracotsa which are not as relevant as things like kadabra and jumpluff, so Whirlipede for C-
Whirlipede also lives EQ+shard from pilo, and has a 50 percent chance to live marowak's bonemerang. There are a good amount of pokemon that whirlipede can switch into that venipede can't: defensive poli, roselia, lickilicky, tangela, gourgeist, defensive costa, carbink. Also, dodrio, frogadier, simipour, simisear, and simisage don't usually run taunt. And just because venipede outspeeds 5 relevant pokemon doesn't mean that whirlipede should go to C- .
Mightyena from B+ to A- rank
Honestly with the ban of Throh, almost nothing can really deal with Darkspam aside from Poliwrath, which still gets 2HKOed by Mightyena's Play Rough after prior damage, not hard to achieve with Spikes being amazing atm. With Sneasel gone, Mightyena has pretty much become the go-to mon for Darkspam teams. It's an excellent cleaner with coverage that pretty much hits the whole tier neutrally, and can even get past Fairies such as Togetic and Clefairy with Iron Tail (+1 Iron Tail cleanly OHKOes the latter). Moxie allows it to clean most teams with a little residual damage and it also has Sucker Punch to revenge kill faster threats such as Zebstrika. Honestly this thing paired with Pawniard is incredibly difficult to stop and should definitely move up.
Whirlipede from B- to B rank (potentially higher)
Honestly, although hyper offense is pretty matchup based and weak to quite a few relevant threats in PU, it's a solid playstyle regardless, and Whirlipede's bulk allows it to have a decent lead matchup vs. most common leads in the tier. It can also set up Toxic Spikes which are EXTREMELY useful against certain teams (a lot of teams don't bother carrying RS/Defog nowadays). Spikes are also incredibly good to wear down stuff like Poliwrath which has to come in multiple times to check common threats and thus gets worn down incredibly quickly. Also, it's not a one-trick pony, as Eviolite sets are actually quite bulky and can withstand attacks from common 'mons like Leafeon, Pawniard, and Roselia quite easily.
I feel that Whirlipede fits better on HO than Venipede as it also has a pretty solid lead matchup, allowing the team to have some semblance of a defensive backbone and not being pressured immediately by opposing leads.
Honestly with the ban of Throh, almost nothing can really deal with Darkspam aside from Poliwrath, which still gets 2HKOed by Mightyena's Play Rough after prior damage, not hard to achieve with Spikes being amazing atm. With Sneasel gone, Mightyena has pretty much become the go-to mon for Darkspam teams. It's an excellent cleaner with coverage that pretty much hits the whole tier neutrally, and can even get past Fairies such as Togetic and Clefairy with Iron Tail (+1 Iron Tail cleanly OHKOes the latter). Moxie allows it to clean most teams with a little residual damage and it also has Sucker Punch to revenge kill faster threats such as Zebstrika. Honestly this thing paired with Pawniard is incredibly difficult to stop and should definitely move up.
Whirlipede from B- to B rank (potentially higher)
Honestly, although hyper offense is pretty matchup based and weak to quite a few relevant threats in PU, it's a solid playstyle regardless, and Whirlipede's bulk allows it to have a decent lead matchup vs. most common leads in the tier. It can also set up Toxic Spikes which are EXTREMELY useful against certain teams (a lot of teams don't bother carrying RS/Defog nowadays). Spikes are also incredibly good to wear down stuff like Poliwrath which has to come in multiple times to check common threats and thus gets worn down incredibly quickly. Also, it's not a one-trick pony, as Eviolite sets are actually quite bulky and can withstand attacks from common 'mons like Leafeon, Pawniard, and Roselia quite easily.
I feel that Whirlipede fits better on HO than Venipede as it also has a pretty solid lead matchup, allowing the team to have some semblance of a defensive backbone and not being pressured immediately by opposing leads.
I second the whirlipede to B nomination
Also, I wanted to point out that I made a huge mistake and said that whirlipede can't beat scarfed mime and rotom. With protect-live-protect, whirlipede gets to +3, outspeeds, and gets a second hazard up. Venipede outspeeds nothing relevant(agility and chlorophyll users at +2) that whirlipede can't at +3. So the only reason to use venipede is to outspeed sleep powder jumpluff, encore raichu, and encore kadabra. Aside from that, whirlipede is better that venipede for the reasons I already listed(vastly increased bulk allows it to take more hits from other leads and be saved for later), so I really think venipede should be dropped. It only has one small niche to be used over whirlipede, and whirlipede can do better in many matches thanks to its bulk.
I'm not sure about the mightyena nomination though, because mightyena was already used on most dark spam teams anyways, and throh was not a counter thanks to play rough
Also, I wanted to point out that I made a huge mistake and said that whirlipede can't beat scarfed mime and rotom. With protect-live-protect, whirlipede gets to +3, outspeeds, and gets a second hazard up. Venipede outspeeds nothing relevant(agility and chlorophyll users at +2) that whirlipede can't at +3. So the only reason to use venipede is to outspeed sleep powder jumpluff, encore raichu, and encore kadabra. Aside from that, whirlipede is better that venipede for the reasons I already listed(vastly increased bulk allows it to take more hits from other leads and be saved for later), so I really think venipede should be dropped. It only has one small niche to be used over whirlipede, and whirlipede can do better in many matches thanks to its bulk.
I'm not sure about the mightyena nomination though, because mightyena was already used on most dark spam teams anyways, and throh was not a counter thanks to play rough
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Drifblim from B to B+ rank
With the banning of Sneasel and Throh, Driblim has a bit more going for it in terms of sweeping potential with 2 less Knock Off abusers to deal with. Combined with Unburden, support moves like Will-o-Wisp to cripple physical sweepers llike Pawniard and Mightyena, and Destiny Bond to take out slower threats especially after an Unburden boost combined with offensive presence with either Calm Mind sweeping or physical sweeping with Acrobatics, Drifblim should see more usage despite competing with other offensive minded Ghosts like Misdreavus and Haunter.
Jumpluff from A+ to S rank
In all honesty, I never really used Jumpluff much, but with Sneasel and Throh gone, Jumpluff rise to glory know no bounds right now. Sure it doesn't have offensive presence right off the bat, but has with access to Sleep Powder (pray it hits), Swords Dance, and 2 solid STAB moves in Seed Bomb and Acrobatics makes it very threatning to teams not prepared for it. Jumpluff also has access to other great support moves such as Stun Spore, Memento and Encore for set up sweepers, and U-Turn for momentum.
Zebstrika from A to A+ rank
Speaking of Jumpluff, one of the few pokemon that can truly counter Jumpluff deserves a mention here. With Sap Sipper giving it an immunity to Jumpluff's Sleep Powder and Seed Bomb and resisting Acrobatics while also outspeeding Jumpluff, Zebstrika is a premiere pokemon in the current metagame. It faces competiton from Raichu and Rotom-F sure, but having great Speed, a good coverage move in Overheat, plus faster momentum with Volt Switch gives Zebstrika a solid role in PU.
With the banning of Sneasel and Throh, Driblim has a bit more going for it in terms of sweeping potential with 2 less Knock Off abusers to deal with. Combined with Unburden, support moves like Will-o-Wisp to cripple physical sweepers llike Pawniard and Mightyena, and Destiny Bond to take out slower threats especially after an Unburden boost combined with offensive presence with either Calm Mind sweeping or physical sweeping with Acrobatics, Drifblim should see more usage despite competing with other offensive minded Ghosts like Misdreavus and Haunter.
Jumpluff from A+ to S rank
In all honesty, I never really used Jumpluff much, but with Sneasel and Throh gone, Jumpluff rise to glory know no bounds right now. Sure it doesn't have offensive presence right off the bat, but has with access to Sleep Powder (pray it hits), Swords Dance, and 2 solid STAB moves in Seed Bomb and Acrobatics makes it very threatning to teams not prepared for it. Jumpluff also has access to other great support moves such as Stun Spore, Memento and Encore for set up sweepers, and U-Turn for momentum.
Zebstrika from A to A+ rank
Speaking of Jumpluff, one of the few pokemon that can truly counter Jumpluff deserves a mention here. With Sap Sipper giving it an immunity to Jumpluff's Sleep Powder and Seed Bomb and resisting Acrobatics while also outspeeding Jumpluff, Zebstrika is a premiere pokemon in the current metagame. It faces competiton from Raichu and Rotom-F sure, but having great Speed, a good coverage move in Overheat, plus faster momentum with Volt Switch gives Zebstrika a solid role in PU.
Machoke to B+/A-
Basically does the same things that Throh did, just can't switch into knock offs as well and no lefties. It has the same good attack, guts, can run rest/talk and four attacks well (although no more taunt/toxic and idk about CB) and just generally fits the same niche. B-/A+ seems about the right place to start it off, seeing as it just traded in versatility and switching into knock off for the potential to hax the shit out of people with a base 100 STAB move, plus Jumpluff just got even better. I could definitely see it being higher, but B+ at the very least imo.
Basically does the same things that Throh did, just can't switch into knock offs as well and no lefties. It has the same good attack, guts, can run rest/talk and four attacks well (although no more taunt/toxic and idk about CB) and just generally fits the same niche. B-/A+ seems about the right place to start it off, seeing as it just traded in versatility and switching into knock off for the potential to hax the shit out of people with a base 100 STAB move, plus Jumpluff just got even better. I could definitely see it being higher, but B+ at the very least imo.
Don't really agree with Jumpluff to S. Throh's ban actually did not make Jumpluff better at all because checking Fighting-types was one of the biggest reasons to use it (seriously why are you guys making it seem like Jumpluff's popularity makes Fighting-types better ?_?), even though Ice Punch got more common. Admittedly Sneasel's ban is really nice for it, but it's not like all Ice moves or the things that held it back from S suddenly dissappeared. It's simply piss poor weak before a Swords Dance boost, and relies on the inaccurate Sleep Powder to get those boosts in the first place. Even if it has acquired a Swords Dance boost it's walled by all Steel-types, checked by all Choice Scarf users (or any Pokemon above 110 Speed really), still not strong enough to OHKO bulky Pokemon it doesn't hit super effectively, and struggles with common Pokemon such as Zebstrika and Piloswine, which are both incredibly easy to slap onto a team. Sure, it offers a ton of utility to teams with its support moves, but this Pokemon is honestly enormously overhyped. It really is not that terrifying lol.
Other stuff:
Mightyena should rise to A-, it's an amazing cleaner and fits really well on hazard stacking and Dark spam teams which are both amazing at the moment. Mightyena needs just one kill (not hard to get) to completely turn the game around.
Zebstrika is amazing and should go to A+. Honestly I always thought it was just as good as Raichu because not losing to common Grass-types such as Roselia is very nice, but I believe that Sap Sipper really does make it a better choice than Raichu most of the time because it makes Zebstrika a good check to Grasses.
Misdreavus should probably go back to A+. It has just lost two popular checks, and fits very well on more or less all team types because of its utility in Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Ghost-type, while having offensive presence with good coverage that can be boosted with Nasty Plot.
Pawniard should go to A+ for the reasons stated earlier, altough they failed to mention that Sneasel is also a soft check that is gone now (lol at non-Low Kick Sneasel).
Pelipper is really good so I'm surprised it's not even A. As most of us know the defensive set is great, checking Dark spam without Thunderfang Mightyena, Poliwrath, Piloswine, etc. The offensive tank set is something I find myself slapping onto a lot of teams as well, as it has unresisted STAB coverage to go together with its decent bulk, Defog, a great typing, and U-turn making it a great pivot. A- is too low for such an amazing Pokemon.
Edit: Not necessarily opposed but ranking Machoke that high seems kinda hasty lol.
Other stuff:
Mightyena should rise to A-, it's an amazing cleaner and fits really well on hazard stacking and Dark spam teams which are both amazing at the moment. Mightyena needs just one kill (not hard to get) to completely turn the game around.
Zebstrika is amazing and should go to A+. Honestly I always thought it was just as good as Raichu because not losing to common Grass-types such as Roselia is very nice, but I believe that Sap Sipper really does make it a better choice than Raichu most of the time because it makes Zebstrika a good check to Grasses.
Misdreavus should probably go back to A+. It has just lost two popular checks, and fits very well on more or less all team types because of its utility in Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Ghost-type, while having offensive presence with good coverage that can be boosted with Nasty Plot.
Pawniard should go to A+ for the reasons stated earlier, altough they failed to mention that Sneasel is also a soft check that is gone now (lol at non-Low Kick Sneasel).
Pelipper is really good so I'm surprised it's not even A. As most of us know the defensive set is great, checking Dark spam without Thunderfang Mightyena, Poliwrath, Piloswine, etc. The offensive tank set is something I find myself slapping onto a lot of teams as well, as it has unresisted STAB coverage to go together with its decent bulk, Defog, a great typing, and U-turn making it a great pivot. A- is too low for such an amazing Pokemon.
Edit: Not necessarily opposed but ranking Machoke that high seems kinda hasty lol.
Against moving Jumpluff up, it isn't as polarizing as Ninetales or Poliwrath imo and does not cause a similar level of constraint in teambuilding or utility. Sure, Sleep Powder is nice, but Jumpluff is incredibly weak without a boost and it's weak to SR without any recovery (literally no set can afford to run Synthesis), not even Leftovers. It's checked by many 'mons such as Pawniard, Probopass, and Sap Sipper Zebstrika (takes significant damage from Acro but still easily counters). This is not to mention the prevalence of revenge killers such as Piloswine (Ice Shard), Rotom-F (Scarf), Scarf Haunter, Scarf Mime (needs to be significantly weakened, like below 50%), Floatzel, Sash Kadabra, and so on. Its coverage is underwhelming at best and although it is a pretty great mon in the meta, its utility and sweeping potential is being grossly overhyped imo.
Rampardos from C+ to B-
As it got discussed in the room and mentioned in the np thread, got surprised it didn't get some talk there too so I'll give it a bit of spotlight into viability rankings. Rampardos is one of the winners of this suspect as it lost a valid revengekiller in Sneasel, and now that hazard stacking offense became really popular along with stall getting more viable, Rampardos can finally put something in work, being able to deal with popular stealth rock setters at the moment such as Golem, Dwebble, and Probopass, thanks to Mold Breaker to get through Sturdy and its mixed coverage which mainly consists in Surf to guarantee the OHKO on bulky Ground-types. Rampardos is also able to tear apart basic stall cores and slow paced teams with its crazy high atk, which also makes it a good choice as a Wallbreaker, but a set up sweeper set can be an option with Rock Polish to overcome its mediocre speed. All of this makes it up for a really unpredictable Pokemon, which can pull off decent perfomances and sometimes snowball the match therefore worthy of a B- ranking, as its speed and bulk are still mediocre, making it easily revengekillable and forcing it most of the time to run a Focus Sash.
there is no way jumpluff is anywhere near s rank and it should probably move down to a IMO; it has less opportunities for setup now and while sleep is still debilitating and it pressures defensive teams quite well it isn't as splashable as it used to be due to the sr weak being more prominent of a feature now that jumpluff has less opportunity in a game
I agree with it moving down, and I honestly question if the jumpluff hype train kinda bumped it up past what was reasonable for it.
Now one of the main things that makes me agree with a move down is how much of a momentum drop it has. With having little upfront power to its base, it's very dependent on setting up, so it lacks any "real" start off pressure besides sleep. And given how offensive this meta is right now, this lack of pressure really hurts its case as an A+ mon.
Now one of the main things that makes me agree with a move down is how much of a momentum drop it has. With having little upfront power to its base, it's very dependent on setting up, so it lacks any "real" start off pressure besides sleep. And given how offensive this meta is right now, this lack of pressure really hurts its case as an A+ mon.
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I disagree with Jumpluff moving up, but I also disagree with it moving down...
Throh wasn't exactly a HUGE threat to Jumpluff because unless it does have Ice Punch (Which usually meant that it was missing Resttalk), Jumpluff should be beating it easily... The huge boon for Jumpluff was the boot out of Sneasel, that was almost a perfect counter for it, being faster, strong and having a 4x Efective STAB against it. Now, some of its best counters besides Sap Sipper Zeb and Avalugg, are kinda niche like Vullaby, Metang and Resttalk Klang...
Of course, it still have some good checks like Piloswine, Pawniard and Scarf Rotom F that are pretty common and makes Jumpluff's work a pain in the butt, which is why I believe that it shouldn't be S at all...
Depending on the development of the meta I could support getting it back to "A", but I truly doubt that Jumpluff can get on S at all, unless we ban Pilo, Zeb, Avalugg, Rotom F, Pawniard and Tangela... U_U
I kinda Agree on Mightyena getting to A-. It does have nice power and enough speed to be effective on what it needs. Also being able of getting past Poliwrath it's really nice for a Dark type (Considering that it was one of the stops of the Banned weasel and Pawniard).
Finally on Machoke... I'm sure it's not as good as Throh, no matter how hard it tries, because being so heavily crippled by one of the moves that should be handling isn't exactly a good thing. I could see it at B- and then we will see how this develops...
See ya guys!
Throh wasn't exactly a HUGE threat to Jumpluff because unless it does have Ice Punch (Which usually meant that it was missing Resttalk), Jumpluff should be beating it easily... The huge boon for Jumpluff was the boot out of Sneasel, that was almost a perfect counter for it, being faster, strong and having a 4x Efective STAB against it. Now, some of its best counters besides Sap Sipper Zeb and Avalugg, are kinda niche like Vullaby, Metang and Resttalk Klang...
Of course, it still have some good checks like Piloswine, Pawniard and Scarf Rotom F that are pretty common and makes Jumpluff's work a pain in the butt, which is why I believe that it shouldn't be S at all...
Depending on the development of the meta I could support getting it back to "A", but I truly doubt that Jumpluff can get on S at all, unless we ban Pilo, Zeb, Avalugg, Rotom F, Pawniard and Tangela... U_U
I kinda Agree on Mightyena getting to A-. It does have nice power and enough speed to be effective on what it needs. Also being able of getting past Poliwrath it's really nice for a Dark type (Considering that it was one of the stops of the Banned weasel and Pawniard).
Finally on Machoke... I'm sure it's not as good as Throh, no matter how hard it tries, because being so heavily crippled by one of the moves that should be handling isn't exactly a good thing. I could see it at B- and then we will see how this develops...
See ya guys!
I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot of potential changes within the rankings, as one of the biggest reasons they have been the way they have before is largely because of Sneasel's influence. Now that it's gone (including Throh), there's bound to be breathing room for a lot of adjustments to be made, but I want to give us more time to develop with the new metagame and avoiding being over enthusiastic by predicting what will get better because of the bans (I think this has been a problem in particular in Jumpluff, where people seem overzealous in moving it to S-rank). We'll have to see in practice how the metagame has changed ourselves if we want to be met with logical results. That said, I think it's time we stop suggesting changes until the ones already suggested have been discussed more thoroughly.
The Pokemon I'm most established with now would have to be Pawniard. Sneasel leaving the tier actually changes a lot for it indirectly, in that it doesn't have to compete for a teamslot anymore. In addition, Throh and Poliwrath are both Pokemon that saw a great deal of usage because of Sneasel's presence in the metagame, and these two coincidentally happened to be solid answers to Pawinard. With one of the two being banned and the other likely seeing some drop in usage, there seems to be a lot of high expectations for Pawinard, and I agree that it should move up to A+.
The Pokemon I'm most established with now would have to be Pawniard. Sneasel leaving the tier actually changes a lot for it indirectly, in that it doesn't have to compete for a teamslot anymore. In addition, Throh and Poliwrath are both Pokemon that saw a great deal of usage because of Sneasel's presence in the metagame, and these two coincidentally happened to be solid answers to Pawinard. With one of the two being banned and the other likely seeing some drop in usage, there seems to be a lot of high expectations for Pawinard, and I agree that it should move up to A+.
Honestly Jumpluff shouldn't move down either lol, it's more splashable on teams than, say, Leafeon imo (you can't judge a pkmn's viability in a vacuum, it needs to be relative to viability of other 'mons); the extra Speed in revenging +2 Adamant Carracosta and outspeeding shit like Ninetales (which you can Sleep Powder, SD on, and KO w/ Acro if Rocks are up) is incredibly useful and versatility in utility moves such as U-turn, Encore, and Sleep Powder isn't bad either. It's not S-worthy as I outlined earlier, but idt it should drop tbh.
Pawniard should also move up, as its counters are incredibly easy to wear down and its STAB combo hits almost the entire tier for neutral damage. STAB Knock Off is excellent to wear down a lot of common tanks that rely on Lefties and priority in Sucker Punch hits quite hard after a boost. It's a very prominent threat and also blocks Defog, making it a great choice on HO teams as well.
Pawniard should also move up, as its counters are incredibly easy to wear down and its STAB combo hits almost the entire tier for neutral damage. STAB Knock Off is excellent to wear down a lot of common tanks that rely on Lefties and priority in Sucker Punch hits quite hard after a boost. It's a very prominent threat and also blocks Defog, making it a great choice on HO teams as well.
Definitely agree with pawn going up and Jumpluff staying where it is, but that's been run into the ground by now. There are several more mons that are looking pretty cool with sneasel and Throh gone. Simipour lost a good revenge killer and one of the only pokemon not 2hko'd with the right prediction, and the elsa me goes for Haunter. Both are much better at their life orb sets. Both are also amazing on HO hazard stack, with a severe lack of switchins plus potentially taunt making them great partners for Dwebble or whirlipede (and Haunter spinblocks). LO Raichu is in the same situation of losing a counter and revenge killer, and being forced to run Zebstrika for sneasel isn't an issue anymore (just for Jumpluff). Vigoroth likes the removal of the premier knock off users and throh's storm/circle throw a lot, as do most other bulky NFe setup mons (Clefairy, duosion, Misdreavus, togetic, etc). I can also see bulk up gogoat getting better for the same reasons. I haven't tested these yet, this is more just thoughts on other mons that might have improved post ban other than pawn.
Edit: thinking back on it this could probably go in the general thread, I was just trying to bring up something other than pawn and pluff to discuss
Edit: thinking back on it this could probably go in the general thread, I was just trying to bring up something other than pawn and pluff to discuss
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Unfezant for D-rank:
Unfezant is a pokemon in the PU metagame which is constantly being over looked due to it's lack of a powerful flying type STAB. What people usually don't notice is its suprisingly high physical attack at 115 which is only beaten by the likes of Flareon, Armaldo, Golem, Kingler, and Luxray and some unviable things, which have lackluster speed compared to it. Unfezant has access to a strong STAB Return and moves such as tailwind or wish to help support its teammates. It also has a solid niche over Dodrio in access to U-turn and has a slightly larger attack stat as well. The ability Super Luck allows Unfezant to get a pretty often chance of a critical hit which can change the momentum of games. With Sneasel gone it can put in more work and do more that it could before and should be looked into for promotion.
Edit: Steel wing allows it to hit golem and gives it another niche over dodrio. Thx Zard
Unfezant is a pokemon in the PU metagame which is constantly being over looked due to it's lack of a powerful flying type STAB. What people usually don't notice is its suprisingly high physical attack at 115 which is only beaten by the likes of Flareon, Armaldo, Golem, Kingler, and Luxray and some unviable things, which have lackluster speed compared to it. Unfezant has access to a strong STAB Return and moves such as tailwind or wish to help support its teammates. It also has a solid niche over Dodrio in access to U-turn and has a slightly larger attack stat as well. The ability Super Luck allows Unfezant to get a pretty often chance of a critical hit which can change the momentum of games. With Sneasel gone it can put in more work and do more that it could before and should be looked into for promotion.
Edit: Steel wing allows it to hit golem and gives it another niche over dodrio. Thx Zard
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